So I've been working on getting room in my house to try to get a new layout going again. I had an 8x16 layout in my family's basement when I was growing up. And my family owned a toy and hobby store in western Massachusetts up unitl about 1995. When I moved for college in 1997, the trains got packed up, and were sent with me after graduation. Since then I've been working on getting some space in a house for a layout, using the majority of my semi-old (early 90s) HO equipment.
Fast forward to now, and I've got room for an L-shaped 8x8 layout. I've got a basic design in my head, with it running two engines at the same time, probably on seperate levels. I'm at the point that I have to decide how to wire this whole thing up. I have exactly 0 experience inn any of this "new fangled" DCC stuff.
So my question is two-fold: With the relatively "smallness" of the nature of the layout, is it worth to go the DCC method (even just for the sake of experience with the system), or am I better off going with what I know with a DC setup? Money isn't so much a huge issue as it is will it be worth spending the time and effort learning a new technology.
Any information would be a huge help.
Hook it up for DC, since you are already equipped and have some fun. As you get more familiar with web sites like this it will start to become apparent what DCC can do, and you may find yourself drawn in that direction. No big deal to convert the layout later, I had every intention of going DCC when I started back in the hobby, but ran DC for at least a year while the track plan developed.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 Hook it up for DC, since you are already equipped and have some fun. As you get more familiar with web sites like this it will start to become apparent what DCC can do, and you may find yourself drawn in that direction. No big deal to convert the layout later, I had every intention of going DCC when I started back in the hobby, but ran DC for at least a year while the track plan developed.
Thanks for the advice. What's involved in the conversion from the DC to DCC if I decide to do something with it later?
Having built and wired layouts for both DC and DCC, it's been my experience that you can accomplish more, and do it more easily, using DCC.
The size of the layout doesn't matter, and in fact, DCC might be an even better choice for a smaller layout with multiple locos. The reason is that on a smaller layout, you have less room for "reasonably sized" electrical blocks. Since you don't need to block a layout with DCC, that doesn't matter. You can run those locos right up to each other anywhere on the layout, without any regard for where those block boundaries are (because there aren't any!)
Steve
Stevert Having built and wired layouts for both DC and DCC, it's been my experience that you can accomplish more, and do it more easily, using DCC. The size of the layout doesn't matter, and in fact, DCC might be an even better choice for a smaller layout with multiple locos. The reason is that on a smaller layout, you have less room for "reasonably sized" electrical blocks. Since you don't need to block a layout with DCC, that doesn't matter. You can run those locos right up to each other anywhere on the layout, without any regard for where those block boundaries are (because there aren't any!) Steve
So if I were to go with the DCC, and I know I'm probably opening a can of worms here, what's recommended for someone who's starting off with DCC? I'm a technology manager w/ my day job, so having to program something isn't really a big deal, but I don't want to go all 'overkill" on a system that I just need to run a few Athern and Atlas engines. I know some hobby stores in the area have "DCC Starter Sets", but I'm not sure that's the best way to go.
I was always die hard "DC". My last layout was built DC. It had alot of wiring and switches to control the blocks. It was difficult to run two trains in the same block. I converted to DCC as a result of seeing it operate. Less wires and more realistic locomotive movements. I'm currently building a new layout and is DCC. I am very impressed with DCC, especially with sound. No turning back for me.
GoFastTurnLeftSo if I were to go with the DCC, and I know I'm probably opening a can of worms here, what's recommended for someone who's starting off with DCC? I'm a technology manager w/ my day job, so having to program something isn't really a big deal, but I don't want to go all 'overkill" on a system that I just need to run a few Athern and Atlas engines. I know some hobby stores in the area have "DCC Starter Sets", but I'm not sure that's the best way to go.
It is likely you would learn, and eventually enjoy, just about any of the systems out there. If you can accept that, then anything else that matters has to do a bit with ergonomics, features, the quality and clarity of provided instructions (in the manual and/or on line), expandability, and how much power it offers at the outset.
You would want a minimum of 2 amps, and that is rock bottom. Many prefer a corded or cordless (radio) throttle, and don't really like having to push the throttle buttons on the same base controller all the time....that is immobile...fixed in one location.
Many of us have 4 amps and up so that we have a cushion for lighted passenger cars, multiple engines heading a longer train, or when two or more friends are present controlling their own trains. Few of us would ever want more than 4 amps if we operate by ourselves 80% of the time or more. If your layout is larger, and you have friends over with their own throttles as often as not, 4 amps may not be enough, and you might actually need one booster or more. Your layout is going to be small enough for the time being that expandability is more important and amperage over 4 amps not really necessary.
The size of any read-out/displays, the brightness, numbers of throttles the unit can handle, the numbers of addresses kept in memory, the size of the hand-held throttle if it has one, and the size of the buttons.
How many functions would you be interested in controlling? Modern controllers and decoders are upwards of 20 functions, and many are at 28 or more? Will the sound of a flushing toilet be important? Or would you be perfectly happy with coupler sounds, horn/whistle, bell, and various ligthing functions...maybe an air let-off sound?
So, maybe a starter set is going to do you for the time being. I would then want to know if it can be expanded so that you don't have to shelve it or sell it when the time comes to add-on.
-Crandell
I would agree with Steve, so many think that DCC is for larger layouts, when it is on the smaller layouts is where the strengths of DCC can really shine. If I was still active in HO, and building a new layout from zero, it would be DCC. I still respect those that run DC, but my intrests for the last 5 years or so have been AC powered, O-Gauge, so I don't have the DC/DCC decision to make (conventional or TMCC/Legacy, which was my choice, or DCS)
We run DC and a convertible section that is also DCC capable, at the HO club I am a semi-active member of. We use NCE, and I have heard many say that NCE is more user friendly than some others. I would reccomend looking at NCE's entry level system, it comes complete for around $189.00, offers 2 amps, and the controler is the same as the upgraded system, and is upgradeable to radio.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
selector How many functions would you be interested in controlling? Modern controllers and decoders are upwards of 20 functions, and many are at 28 or more? Will the sound of a flushing toilet be important? Or would you be perfectly happy with coupler sounds, horn/whistle, bell, and various ligthing functions...maybe an air let-off sound? -Crandell
I'm thinking that all I'll need for control is the engines, lighting, perhaps some sound, and the mechanical functions of the layout (switches and such). The layout itself will be mostly rural, so there won't be an overwhelming amount of buildings to have any sort of function with.
A DigiTrax Zephyr would be a great starter DCC system (especially if you have one or two DC power packs handy, they can be used as throttles). However, this is more expensive than two DC power packs.
Wiring the layout is easier than DC, just two bus wires and feeders. You could use insulated rail gaps on sidings (controlled by a toggle switch) if you wanted to prevent accidents, but not necessary.
Using DCC to control turnouts runs around $15 per turnout and you have to address each turnout. Not sure the benefit on a smaller shelf type layout. But then, DCC is expandable.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
I've got a couple of MRC DC power packs, both were pretty nice at the time.
Would it be worth it to handle the turnouts and such with just a regular DC toggle switch, or is there more that the DCC would bring to it? Again, the layout's going in a relatively small room, but I've gotten about an 8x8 area for it, so there's not a whole lot of need for walkaround.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
GoFastTurnLeftI've got a couple of MRC DC power packs, both were pretty nice at the time. Would it be worth it to handle the turnouts and such with just a regular DC toggle switch, or is there more that the DCC would bring to it? Again, the layout's going in a relatively small room, but I've gotten about an 8x8 area for it, so there's not a whole lot of need for walkaround.
Those MRC power packs would work perfectly as jump throttles with the Digitrax Zephyr. And your statement that you don't have much need for walkaround would make the Zephyr with jump throttles an ideal choice. Plus, the Zephyr is very expandable, so if your layout situation changes the Zephyr can grow with it.
As far as turnout control, well, that's your choice. I'd go DCC, but that's just me.
I have a small layout (to grow bigger later) and had also done a DC layout many years ago. This one I did tentatively with DCC .... and have never looked back. MUCH easier. Two buss wires under the layout, connectors (two wires) to each run (or section) of track. You don't HAVE to do any programming (though the options are there) to speak of. I went with the Zepher and am very happy. I use hand throws for some and tortoises for some turnouts and sidings (maybe some day I'll control them with DCC). One guy can run two trains easily, which would have been tough on my old DCC layout with block wiring. So I recommend DCC. It will be more expensive to start.... DCC unit and loco's with DCC module (or install on older locos). But I'm not sorry I did it.
Have fun with it.... Hal
I agree with Simon. Go with what you know at first. When you get some locos converted to DCC and you're ready to change over to a DCC system all you have to do is disconnect your power pack(s) and hook up the DCC system and it should work as is. I'm powering over 130 feet of nickel-silver track wired for standard DC blocking with a Digitrax DCS50 and I'm not having any problems. Once you find out what DCC can do you'll likely never look at DC the same way again.
GoFastTurnLeft Would it be worth it to handle the turnouts and such with just a regular DC toggle switch, or is there more that the DCC would bring to it? Again, the layout's going in a relatively small room, but I've gotten about an 8x8 area for it, so there's not a whole lot of need for walkaround.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Hi!
I've been playing with trains since the early '50s, but have been in DCC for only a year. It was a well studied decision to move from my two MRC CM-20s to a Digitrax Super Chief with second booster, etc., etc. In my case, I am very happy I did so - but I can also tout both sides of the fence.
From what I gather, you are relatively young, and are looking to get back into the hobby after a number of years. So with that as a given, may I suggest:
- Take what you have and build yourself a nice DC layout - making sure that you wire it for a potential changeover to DCC. By this I mean to use substantial power bus(s), short feeders every 3 or 4 feet, and well documented & clear cut (neat) wiring.
- This will allow you two very significant benefits. The first is, you will soon find out if you are truly interested in getting back into the hobby. Frankly, you are at a time of your life that a whole lot of other influences will be pulling at your time, energy, and pocketbook. The second is, you will relearn the various layout building skills (i.e. benchwork, wiring, design, scenery, etc.) and that is quite a handfull. And, adding in the learnings of DCC may be a bit too much at this time, and will take away from your time spent in just building the layout.
- When (if???) you get your DC layout up and running and fully tested and you are happy with what you have, then I would look into DCC. My personal "research" came down to Digitrax or NCE, and can only say that these are touted by a lot of folks that know a lot more than me about them. They have been around for some time, make quality products, and they are easily available. And, once you do get DCC, if you have wired properly, it should be minimal effort to change over.
In any case, when your layout is built, you will have a good idea of your system requirements, and can then start out with whatever level of system suits you best. The good folks on this forum are never at a loss to help out, and you will find them to be your most valuable support (gee, how do I know this?).
Oh, one piece of advice that I consider very important. While it is POSSIBLE to run both DC and DCC on the same layout, it is a potentially expensive disaster in the making. Most of the DCC gurus seem to strongly discourage it.
Ooops, one last comment..... The above is my opinion, based upon research and experience. I will not argue the points with anyone, simply because there is no reason to do so.
Hey, ENJOY!!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Contrary to some of the other opinions in this thread, my advice would be to start with DCC and don't look back. If you go the DC route first you will have spend a fair amount of time and money on components that will not be needed with DCC. Items needed for multiple cab control such as toggle or rotary switches and a lot of extra wire are not needed in DCC. You fleet of equipment is probably quite small so the cost of converting them to DCC will be minor, especially considering your statement that money isn't the overriding factor.
There is a point of view that holds that DCC is even more beneficial to a small layout. You won't be needing to carve the layout into small blocks to permit 2 cab control. Two operators can operate wherever they please with concern about electrical blocks on a DCC controled small layout.
With the majoity of your equipment being early 90s, depending on the manufacturer, they shouldn't be too difficult to install decoders in. As a technology professional you'll enjoy the tech side of DCC and what it can do so why delay the inevitable, which would be the switch to DCC, and start of planning and building for it. You won't regret it.
StevertThe size of the layout doesn't matter, and in fact, DCC might be an even better choice for a smaller layout with multiple locos. The reason is that on a smaller layout, you have less room for "reasonably sized" electrical blocks. Since you don't need to block a layout with DCC, that doesn't matter. You can run those locos right up to each other anywhere on the layout, without any regard for where those block boundaries are (because there aren't any!)
I was going to say exactly the same thing, but Steve already expressed it eloquently. I too have a small (5x12 HO) layout, and I went to DCC at the beginning. My wiring is simple, and I can run multiple trains, all by my lonesome, without constantly worrying about blocks.
Another thing you can do with DCC is "speed matching," so your multi-engine consists will operate smoothly together.
And then, of course, there are all those sound engines. I'll admit to being a sound junkie, as quite a few of us are. Even if you eventually decide against it, you should go out and listen to sound engines in action before you go out and buy non-sound engines. It's cheaper to buy sound pre-installed than it is to buy a non-sound engine and then go in and add the sound yourself.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
jeffrey-wimberlyI agree with Simon. Go with what you know at first. When you get some locos converted to DCC and you're ready to change over to a DCC system all you have to do is disconnect your power pack(s) and hook up the DCC system and it should work as is. I'm powering over 130 feet of nickel-silver track wired for standard DC blocking with a Digitrax DCS50 and I'm not having any problems. Once you find out what DCC can do you'll likely never look at DC the same way again.
Thats just plain bad advice Jeffery. Why go through the aggravation of wiring a layout DC with all that extraneous wire and switches, and toggles,when you can go DCC and wire it in 2 days instead of 2 months. Good Grief
Orignal poster said: "...Fast forward to now, and I've got room for an L-shaped 8x8 layout."
I doubt whether wiring such a layout for simple DC operation would require "all that extraneous wire and switches", unless he is contemplating a very complicated track plan. In that respect, converting to DCC would go just as predicted...hook up the same two wires to what exists.
OK, I'll offer a few thoughts.
As many on here know, I'm a DC guy, and don't like onboard sound in small scales like HO.
So much for disclaimers.
Based on the OP's discription of his layout plans, I would ask him some questions.
Do you like sound or think you will want it in the future?
Do expect to build a bigger layout latter or is this going to be all the space you have for a while?
Do you have any interest in signaling, dispatching, etc?
Are you interested in other forms of prototypical operation or just want to run trains?
If the first answer is YES, go for DCC, go all in and get a good full featured system.
If the second one is yes, keep in mind that DCC wiring on large layouts is not the "two wires" you hear tell about. As layout size grows and desired features grow, DCC will require more wiring just like DC, just a different sort of wiring. Some feel this "different sort" of wiring is easier, I'm not sure I understand why they think that. This is not to say DCC or DC would be better, just understand bigger always means more, DC or DCC.
Signaling and dispatching also reqiure lots of wiring either way. If you like computers and programing type stuff, a DCC/computer interface system might be best for that. If you like more traditional control panels and user controls, DC might be just as effective and cost a little less. But DC will require more advanced planning and is harder to "Grow as you go"
If just want to run trains, DCC can let any train go anywhere, that's what many today like about it.
DCC is not that hard to learn about, but there is a lot to learn. I consider that two different ideas.
Both can be as simple or complex as you want depending on your goals. You may want to think about your layout goals or talk to some other modelers about "how" they operate, to get a better idea of how you want to operate - before spending too much on either system.
One more thought, I have planned a fair number of layouts for other modelers, and in my view, the features of DCC are more important on small or medium sized layouts than on large layouts.
I have a large layout designed to handle about 8 trains at once and DC works fine. If the layout was smaller but the same number of trains were desired, DCC might be better.
Sheldon
Drilinejeffrey-wimberlyI agree with Simon. Go with what you know at first. When you get some locos converted to DCC and you're ready to change over to a DCC system all you have to do is disconnect your power pack(s) and hook up the DCC system and it should work as is. I'm powering over 130 feet of nickel-silver track wired for standard DC blocking with a Digitrax DCS50 and I'm not having any problems. Once you find out what DCC can do you'll likely never look at DC the same way again. Thats just plain bad advice Jeffery. Why go through the aggravation of wiring a layout DC with all that extraneous wire and switches, and toggles,when you can go DCC and wire it in 2 days instead of 2 months. Good Grief
Give serious thought to independent power for lighting and turnouts. Having the DCC unit run the trains makes things much easier, especially when a problem arises. toy transformers or 9 or 12 volt wallwarts will do a great job.
Craig North Carolina
CSX Robert No, this is not bad advice
Yes it is.
To you, yes. To me, no. The OP already indicated he has no knowledge of DCC. Neither did I when I first contemplated changing over. I was already in the process of building a DC layout and I used the time to read up on DCC and learn what I could about it. During that time I ran my layout as standard DC. I chose to experiment a little with DCC and chose the Bachmann EZ-Command as a simple entry-level system to get to know DCC better. I also sought out friends who had more complicated system such as the Digitrax Zephyr, which I quickly learned how to use. When I got my own it was no problem to go from simple running to programming. Now what would you suggest I should have used to run my layout before I went to DCC. Batteries? DC was what I knew and I used it until I learned more about the new technology.
I, myself, do not believe one can say there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this question. I've yet to come across some kind of 'decision-o-meter' that will tell me anything like 'Right' or 'Wrong'.
I came to know DC through my father's involvment with his own design and construction of his layout, and consequently, of my own layout. His had 5 power districts and 4 LDE's built in and around the circuit. Mine was an ISL on a 2' x 8' shelf type set up. My ISL had 2 power districts. Both of our layouts did have those--ohno ohno!!---toggle switches. Enough to run the layouts. No more. No less. Not the huge panels we see that pepper entire layouts with gazillions of toggle switches in our collective mythology. My father, and hence myself through his example, wired our layouts with care. That got so we ended up being able to troubleshoot the darn things without some kind of schematic!!
Currently I'm using NCE's Power Cab unit and have found that quite sufficient for my own use. Since my branch/shortline is a model of a 'blind' ROW I usually only run 3 trains tops. I will say that there is not much wiring in this fellow's layout, but there was never the great heaping piles of wiring and the tons of toggle/slide switches of yore either.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
DrilineCSX Robert No, this is not bad advice Yes it is.
As the first responder, I should point out that I did not say go DC and avoid DCC, but get some track in place and have some fun with a DC controller. Then as you gain more knowledge about the capabilities of DCC and start to form an opinion and list of needs switch later. I don't advocate installing a highly complex multi-block DC system, but that is not necessary to get some trains running, I don't see how that is "bad" advice. It may not be the same as "your" advice, but simply an opinion that the OP is quite free to reject. I don't advocate running out and getting a DCC system without some knowledge and consideration as this is how mistakes are made.
I want to first apologize for being vacant for the last day. My inability to get free time to read through everyone's well thought-out answers has led to all sorts of questions, leading to more confusion, and for that I apologize.
The idea behind the layout I'll be doing is two tracks running relatively independant of each other (but with switching connecting the two). There'll be a small yard off to one side with 3 or 4 lanes of rail. The amount of time I'll spend operating the switching has yet to be determined, as I'm still laying things out on paper beforehand.
The only thing I'm really lacking to get going (minus the DCC thing) is track, so cost isn't too much of an issue. The main thing about the DCC that I find very helpful is the idea behind manually controlling each engine independantly. The downside is the potential long-range cost of upgrading my smallish fleet (about 10-15 engines if I were to get them all retrofitted with DCC decoders) to DCC.
The only other downside to the DCC option that I'm seeing is having to relearn the whole concept of wiring the layout. I still have all of my old wire guides that I had from 15 years ago and figuerd that would help in a DC environment. While my understanding is that the DCC option makes the amount of wiring less, the "how" aspect of it is what concerns me a bit.