Hey guys:
I have been checking out this forum; have followed up on several suggestions. I am a "newbie" returning to this hobby. Just took a deep breath and ordered about $400 of flex-track, cork roadbed, joiners, etc. from Model Train Stuff. And, like we used to say when I worked for SP and released train movements, "Here we go."
This forum has been helpful so far. Hopefully, you will help me decide: DC or DCC. Before I drive the requisite 115 miles to the nearest shop in Savannah, I would like to be informed when I do go. Any tips or recommendations that you may have are sincerely welcome; and will inform my decision. Thanks,
"Georgia Flash"
When I got back after a 20 vacation, I started with DC and loved it. Then I tried DCC and that was better than I ever imagined. I tried DCC ifrared and did not like that. I now have DCC with radio throttles and it is the best toy in the train room. It is what I always wished running trains could be. It was easy to set up and my grandkids can use it the first time they see it. I can run four trains at a time on my little layout.
ADVICE - Get DCC with radio at the start and save some money, time and grief. I went with Digitrax, but I have since seen several other great systems.
Also, adding decoders to my old engines was possible and I have done 4 so far.
DCC is not a must have and it can be expensive. My advice would be to start a traditional DC controlled layout but wire it in a way that the conversion to DCC can be made as easily as possible. Save the DCC learning curve and cost for after you have mastered the DC side. Basic knowledge of a DC controlled layout will help you understand the intracacies required for DCC. Others will probably say the opposite but as a newbie there is a lot to learn.
While there are plenty of things to learn with DCC, it is not necessary to learn them all up front, in fact you really only need to learn a couple of things to get started. I'm still learning on the fly and while it can be intimidating at times it really isn't all that difficult.
My vote here is DCC from the start.
I use Digitrax, but there are many other options out there that work just as good and possibly better depending on your situation.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
Digitrax Zephyr basic starter set, same one I have. $199.99 at Walther's. I'm sure there are other places that have it for much less. The set comes with everything you need to get started (You need to order decoders as it doesn't come with them). It will work with any NMRA compliant decoder and the learning curve is very shallow. I was using mine inside of 5 minutes of hooking it up.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
You'll get a lot of opinions, but really what do you want to do?
I wanted wireless control, sound, and simple wiring, so I went with NCE Power Pro - R and I think it's great.
With wireless I just have 2 wires carrying power around the layout with feeders to the track. I can control the locomotives from anywhere and hand throw the turnouts.
Enjoy
Paul
Georgia Flash -
I was in a similiar position myself about 5 years ago. Getting back into the hobby after a 20 year hiatus and not to sure as to which way to go, DC or DCC. I went DCC (Digitrax Super Chief) and have never looked back. Why waste all that time trying to figure out DC when you don't have to. Sure I was intimidated with DCC and all the terminology but it really is simple. You can make it as hard as you want to but, to set it up, wire it and just run a few trains it is SIMPLE. Of course this is all predicated on the fact that you want to be able to run more than one train at a time, if not don't waste your $.
Georgia Flash This forum has been helpful so far. Hopefully, you will help me decide: DC or DCC. ... "Georgia Flash"
This forum has been helpful so far. Hopefully, you will help me decide: DC or DCC. ...
I'm still a DC user, although I will likely eventually switch. I have studied DCC, and at present, DCC doesn't have enough extra value for me to warrant spending money on DCC instead of other hobby items.
I would recommend DC in the following situations (minimum extra value for DCC):
The converse is true, also. Layouts running multiple locomotives/trains on shared trackage are much easier to operate with DCC. The best sound control/experience comes with DCC. On small to bedroom-size layouts set up for 2 operators, you will pay more for the equivalent control capability in DCC. Savings become greater if you have any DC equipment on hand, or are willing to build it yourself.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I was in your situation a year ago...returning to the hobby after a 10 year hiatus trying to decide to stick with what I knew (DC) or jump into the world of DCC. I went DCC with a Digitrax Super Chief and have loved it from the start. I have a small layout but like to be able to roam around it without being tied to a control panel to set which loco goes to which track like DC. And having to have a separate transformer for each loco is in the DC past. Want to run 5 trains...no problem with DCC.
Besides - you can't run two trains full speed head on into each other with DC like you can with DCC. Great fun.
Dave
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
fwright Georgia Flash This forum has been helpful so far. Hopefully, you will help me decide: DC or DCC. ... "Georgia Flash" I'm still a DC user, although I will likely eventually switch. I have studied DCC, and at present, DCC doesn't have enough extra value for me to warrant spending money on DCC instead of other hobby items. I would recommend DC in the following situations (minimum extra value for DCC): normal single operator operating a single train at a time, especially on smaller layouts if multiple operators/mulitple trains are involved, trains normally do not share trackage while running (each train is operating on a separate area of track). An example would be my home layout. I have separate track for HOn3 and HO, with no dual gauge. There's no shared trackage to give problems over which throttle has control. The HOn3 line has 3 switching areas that are physically separated, and each area can only accomodate one operator/train at a time. Again, DC works quite well for up to 2 operators on the HOn3 line and 1 on the HO line because track control is just as good as locomotive control. you have DC equipment already, or don't mind building your own. DC equipment is easy to build yourself. Conversely, ready-built DC walk-around throttles and the like are not cheap, costing 3/4 as much as their DCC counterparts. you are willing to learn basic electricity and model railroad wiring. DCC is more plug and play, almost all equipment is off-the-shelf. you don't care about or can't afford sound-equipped locomotives. Although most sound-equipped locomotives can be run on DC, the control of the locomotive and sound is nowhere near as good as with DCC. The converse is true, also. Layouts running multiple locomotives/trains on shared trackage are much easier to operate with DCC. The best sound control/experience comes with DCC. On small to bedroom-size layouts set up for 2 operators, you will pay more for the equivalent control capability in DCC. Savings become greater if you have any DC equipment on hand, or are willing to build it yourself. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
I copied Fred's post because it is excelent advice. Here are a few more thoughts.
I too am a DC user and I use an advanced form of DC wiring with Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttles. I easily select between 4 different cabs on the mainline and have a total of eight different cabs system wide.
Signaling and detection as well automation of many functions is built into the wiring that directs throttle power to the track sections and controls the position of turnouts. The whole layout can be operated in walk around mode or by a central dispatch panel.
And yes it involves a lot of wiring and planning. But if you want signaling and "dispatcher" or CTC type control it does all that very well for less money than adding those features to DCC.
You likely don't even know if you want any of those functions or not. So starting out with a simple DC control system might give you time and save money until you learn more and see more of what others are doing and what can be done, with DC or DCC.
If you like sound, if you have heard several different sound locos, hopefully on a home layout, not just in a store, and you think that sound is something you want - than go with DCC. Control of onboard sound systems is poor at best with DC. Do not just buy Digitrax because it seems to be most popular. Other brands offer easier use, different features and a different cost "curve". Learn about them and decide what is right for you after you decide on DCC vs DC.
If you like building stuff, if you have any electrical backgorund, you may find either very interesting and control system design may become an important aspect of the hobby for you.
If electronics does not interest you, DC will be simple whlie the layout is simple, but DCC may be better as you expand. Neither is without its complications and don't buy into the "DCC is only two wires" hype.
Any large or complex layout will require lots of wiring, DCC or DC.
No matter what you decide to try first, get Paul Mallery's "Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads - vol 1 & 2". They are one of the best books out there.
Sheldon
There is, of course, no 'right' answer. This is roughly analogus to trying to decide whether to buy a Prius or a Corvette. Prius=economy. Corvette=performance. Although in some instances a Corvette can get close to the economy of a Prius, a Prius can never remotely approach the performance of a Corvette. Likewise, a DCC system can do everything a DC system can do, but the converse is not possible.
It usually comes down to two things:Cost and Complexity (learning curve)
Cost: Like most everything else in life you get what you pay for. If you're afraid that getting into DCC means buying a lot of "bells and whistles" (pardon the pun) you'll never use, I'd bet that as you learn the potential of DCC, you'll end up using many more than you think. Why? Because they are there.
Complexity: Not nearly as mysterious and complex as it seems. Take it a step at a time. Oh, and don't be misled by the notion that a DCC layout must be built differently than a DC layout. Connect wires to track-----> run trains. In fact a DCC layout can, but does not have to, be bulit simpler than a DC one.
I can speak for no one but me, but in this and other things, it always seems that as I mature in an activity or skill, I end up wishing I'd spent more at the outset and not end up spending more total dollars to upgrade.
If this will be your first serious layout in a number of years, and it will be a small layout for one-man operation, I don't think that you need DCC. You will have enough to learn with good track laying, scenery, and wiring, never mind having to learn about DCC as well. Once you get this first layout done and decide that you want to continue in the hobby and build a larger layout that two or three people can operate, then you can get into DCC.
Look at all of the features in DCC and decide if you really NEED them at this stage in your Model Railroading hobby.
If you do decide to go with DCC, try and determine what you want it to do. Is your layout being built for two, three, or more people to operate on? If so, don't even bother getting a beginners or entry level system. You will just have to spend more money to expand it later on, and it might not be able to be expanded. Get what you intend to use now and learn it.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
gandydancer19If you do decide to go with DCC, try and determine what you want it to do. Is your layout being built for two, three, or more people to operate on? If so, don't even bother getting a beginners or entry level system. You will just have to spend more money to expand it later on, and it might not be able to be expanded. Get what you intend to use now and learn it.
A better way of phrasing this would be "Be careful which entry level beginner set you get"
I bothered with a Digitrax Zephyr and routinely have 3, 4 or 5 operators simultaneously and it handles it just fine. All I had to do was to add the throttles.
Back to the original posters question.
What ever floats your boat! I started back in the hobby with a couple of basic DC throttle packs. They worked fine and let me run trains quickly. I quickly determined that DCC offered features and performance that I wanted and switched. Never regretted it for one moment. Just simple things like letting a main line train run while I tinker around in the yard with a switcher, with the occasional need to run out onto the main without thinking about block controls did it for me.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I'd go DCC right from the start.
Wiring is far easier than with DC as is operation (no blocks!) and a simple DCC starter set like the Digitrax Zephyr makes it a cinch.
Craig
DMW
Dallas Model Works I'd go DCC right from the start. Wiring is far easier than with DC as is operation (no blocks!) and a simple DCC starter set like the Digitrax Zephyr makes it a cinch. Craig
I agree a 100%.
I started out with a simple Roco DCC system. Now I've upgraded to NCE. But I would never ever be able to go DC. Seems like such a hassle when DCC is so extremly easy unless you want to make it more complex.
Magnus
In this day and age, the only time I would recommend DC is if the layout will only ever have one locomotive at a time on it. If one expects to have two locomotives or more, or two or more operators (even causal operators such as children) then DCC is the way to go. I discovered command control (running the trains not the track) in 1979. Despite all the cost and complexity of it back then (I had to build the command station from components) I have never regretted it. Also compared to then, it is now dirt cheap and much more simple than multi-train DC wiring and operation.
In other words there is no decision of DC or DCC. It is a matter of which DCC system to choose. You cannot go wrong with any of the major vendors - CVP, Digitrax, Lenz, NCE, or Zimo. So then it is a matter of which model to get. Find some real ones and actually play with them before you choose. I also recommend wireless right off the bat.
simon1966A better way of phrasing this would be "Be careful which entry level beginner set you get" I bothered with a Digitrax Zephyr and routinely have 3, 4 or 5 operators simultaneously and it handles it just fine. All I had to do was to add the throttles.
Exactly right. If your layout is going to be large, find out what happens if you un-plug a throttle to follow a train.
Texas Zepher. You cannot go wrong with any of the major vendors - CVP, Digitrax, Lenz, NCE, or Zimo
Georgia Flash,
It is not considered politically correct at times to say good things about MRC, but my recently acquired MRC Prodigy Advanced Wireless can keep pace with, and in some cases edge past, other comparably or even higher priced and featured systems. Good news for you is that you've got a lot of excellent options.
I'd suggest again, that the argument in support of entry level systems that are easily upgradeable is code for "Be prepared to spend more total dollars to upgrade from A to B than if you went to B at the start."
When I first got back into model railroading I visited an open house at a local train club that sadly is no longer around and one of the senior members was chatting with me and was glad that I was back in the hobby etc.and offered me an invitation to join their club, I asked him if he had any advice for a guy getting back in the hobby. He told me flat out go with this new technology called DCC. He took the time to explain all the great benefits of DCC which most of the other posters have layed out for you so no point in being redundant but the one thing he did tell me which held true was that if I didn't go with DCC right off the bat that I would eventually change over to it as I progressed into the hobby. I have two regrets, A: not joining that club who had a great bunch of guys and a nice layout and B: not listening to that old guy.
If you don't go with DCC now I will be willing to bet that more then likely you eventually will make the switch and then be stuck with what many of us have, a bunch of DC loco's to convert or sell to be replaced with DCC or DCC ready loco's. I opted for DC as it appeared to be a lot cheaper at first but it actually was more exp[ensive in the long run.
mreagant I'd suggest again, that the argument in support of entry level systems that are easily upgradeable is code for "Be prepared to spend more total dollars to upgrade from A to B than if you went to B at the start."
ABsolutely NOT true, at least int he case of Digitrax. Check their prices for a wired throttle, a wireless throttle, adn the upgrade of a wired to wireless throttle - the upgrade cost is exactly the price difference between the two - NO penatly for starting with plug-in throttles and adding radio later. And nothign goes to waste when you upgrade - all the components continue to work together. The same is true of the NCE PowerCab, you can expand to a full PowerPro system, the PowerCab is still usable, it doesn't sit on a shelf somewhere.
At least MRC finally realizes that people don't want to throw away their old system when they get a new one - although it took them 4 tries to finally figure this out. But they still tell you nothign about their cab bus, nor is there any option for feedback devices liek block detection that can be monitored through the computer interface - in fact so far it seems their computer interface is only good for programming locos, and even then falls flat on its face because it only uses proprietary software. NCE had feedback and input connections that work through their bus and can be seen by the computer interface, but Digitrax has them all beat with Loconet which can monitor and interact with ALL commands in the system, including each and every throttle - ie, with Digitrax you can set up the computer to do somethign when someone pushes F3 on their throttle, or activates a certain switch address. NCE's computer interface can't see what a given throttle is doing, and MRC, well, that's a big ? because they won't tell us. Big trade secret.
Lastly, how many manufacturers in ANY business list and provide links to the web sites of other companies producing products that work with and in some cases directly compete with yours? Digitrax does.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I just got back into trains in a big way after several years and I decided that even if it meant a smaller layout or few locos I would go DCC with sound in my locos. I studied the DCC systems available and purchased a Prodigy Advance Squared. I've never regretted it and its been ALOT MORE FUN than DC. The control you have over the locos movements and sound is great. From the amount of track you purchased, theres no way I would go DC. Way too much unneeded wiring with a large DC layout. I've got a 14' coiled cord on my Buss, so I can reach any part of my layout without the need for expensive radios. Of course, that would be dependant on how you layout is laid out. I got an amazing deal for my system $195.
Santa Fe all the way!I've got a 14' coiled cord on my Buss, so I can reach any part of my layout without the need for expensive radios.
Santa Fe,
You could also purchase another connector panel (or two) and put them on the other side or end of your layout. That way you could use a shorter chord, as you would only need to plug and unplug your PA2 to move around your layout.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
mreagantIt is not considered politically correct at times to say good things about MRC
That is not the case at all. I think that you will find a lot of folks that can and do say good things about MRC DC power-packs and to some extent MRC DCC control systems. It is the MRC decoders that deservedly get the bad rap.
The big factor you should consider, that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is "what do you have on hand now?" in regards to locomotives and power pack(s). For example, when I was finally able to build my home layout, I had a lot of "old tech" equipment from the 70's and earlier. Many of these would need to be remotored before the installation of a decoder. I also had some home built throttles that made these locomotives run smooth as silk, plus bags of toggle switches and reels of wire in different colors. DCC didn't make financial sense to me then (or now). I've been used to DC block control for decades now, so it's simple for me to set that up.
I would say if it's practical, start with DCC. It's new stuff to learn if you already understand DC wiring, but it's no more complex. It costs more than DC (especially the decoders), but you can spread that cost out over the growth of your layout - if you start DC and convert, then all that expense and effort happen at once.
Something no one has mentioned yet is the "feel" of DCC. With DC, you are driving the tracks. With DCC, you are driving the train. I was a skeptic at first - what difference does it make that I can turn the headlight on and off independent of moving the train? But that one tiny detail flipped a little switch in my brain, and really brought in the feeling that I was driving the train.
That said, it's not always practical, depending on your scale, prototype, budget, or other factors. I model a scale and prototype with very few DCC-ready locomotives available, and a need for three decoders in most trains (one for the motor car in the middle, and one in each end car for the lights); combined with a very tight budget, I've opted not to go DCC at home. But I did put a decoder in one loco, which I run on my club's layout... and that experience has me wishing it were practical for me to convert my own layout and fleet.
DCC has added a new dimension to model railroading - prototype operation.
DCC allows you to be the engineer, DCC has added value to the performance and DCC allows us to enjoy sound. DCC makes wiring a lot easier. DCC will also influence the way we build our layouts -less track, but more operation!
DCC is the train control system of the 21st century, whereas DC is the track power control system of the 20th century.
Sir Madog DCC has added a new dimension to model railroading - prototype operation. DCC allows you to be the engineer, DCC has added value to the performance and DCC allows us to enjoy sound. DCC makes wiring a lot easier. DCC will also influence the way we build our layouts -less track, but more operation! DCC is the train control system of the 21st century, whereas DC is the track power control system of the 20th century.
All hail DCC and kneel before Lenz, the great creator and Digitrax the great provider!
Ulrich, let's examine this a moment. I operated model trains in a prototype manner, with timetable and train order operation when DCC was just a pipe dream.
Yes DCC allows you to be the "Engineer", it fact it DEMANDS it, unless you ad a complete seperate infrastructure to work with it and do other wise. Not everyone with a model train (or some of us with large layouts and more than one model train) wants to be the Engineer all the time.
Sound - I'm with you 100%, if you want onboard sound in small scales than you need DCC. It is the only sensible choice right now. For me, not an issue, I don't care for onboard sound in small scales (but I love it in large scale).
"It makes wiring a lot easier" - Well sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are so many variables of layout size, number of power districts needed, other features or needed infrastructure, etc, etc, as well as the FACT that there are lots of different ways to wire DC layouts depending on the desired operational goals, that any direct compairison is difficuilt.
I've built 1000+ sq ft layouts, for myself and helping friends, DCC and DC, and there is a lot of wire under all of them. I will agree that smaller, "room sized" layouts are often easier to wire in DCC. And, as I have said before some layout sizes and operational goals are ideally suited to DCC.
As for the layout design issue, we've been through that on here before. The availablity of DCC may have changed your modeling goals, and therefore your design approach, but to assume that about everyone in the hobby is somewhat closed minded.
The "invention" of DCC did not cause me to abandon my prespective on model railroading that has been formed throughout some 40 years in favor of what some elses says I should want from the hobby. I looked at DCC long and hard on two occasions during its emergance into the market. For me the answer was no.
The possible new technology that might move me from DC one day would be onboard radio. Allready prefered over DCC by modelers in large scale, sending the control signal directly to the locomotive by radio TRUELY reduces layout wiring, eliminating base units, wireless throttle recievers, reversers, circuit breakers, buss wiring, etc, and eliminates issues of dirty track affecting control signals. And, by eliminating all that, will lower cost dramaticly compaired to DCC.
A track powered radio system would only require simple power supplies for each power district. Reversers would not be needed as the receiver would not care about the polarity of the source power. And then there is even the possiblity of onboard battery power, no track power needed except in the engine terminal for charging. If you think this sounds impossible, it is already common in large scale and possible in O scale. And is able to control sound, consisting, lighting, etc, just like DCC.
Go to Aristocraft.com and read about the Train Engineer Revolution. Because of its even greater simplicity than DCC, and much lower cost on large layouts, this could easily be the control system of the future.
So for now I will stay with my 20th Century control system, that does not have any "block toggles" dispite the repeated posts by DCC users that they are "necessary" in DC, until we see where the chips fall and what the real 21st Century control system will be.
And let's remember, I'm not anti DCC, I'm pro choice.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...A track powered radio system would only require simple power supplies for each power district. Reversers would not be needed as the receiver would not care about the polarity of the source power...
You and I can point out until we are blue in the face that there are some situations where DCC is not particularly valuable, and certainly not worth the $300 (plus decoders) for a minimum 2 throttle with computer interface setup. But it won't matter. Those who are new in the hobby - and I was there once - want to be led like sheep, being told that this is the way to do model railroading.
Model Railroader is particularly guilty of that practice - pushing a set of values that all model railroaders should/must aspire to, and these are the specific steps to get there. But at least they are trying to please their advertisers. The problem is not so much the steps or technologies themselves (DCC, foam construction, linear track plans, time table operations, etc) but that the underlying goals and values may not be as universally shared as many think. Although time table operations are pushed as the ultimate goal of a basement layout, there are many participants who get their thrills from other aspects of the hobby - and who are quite satisfied to never operate a layout in TT&TO fashion.
The ultimate model railroading blashphemy is to deliberately use a more suitable (but non-mainstream) technology to better achieve your individual hobby goals. But then the blashphemers seldom are found on these forums, so few forum participants know/realize how diverse the hobby really is.
rant over, climbing down from my soapbox
fwright Sheldon You and I can point out until we are blue in the face that there are some situations where DCC is not particularly valuable, and certainly not worth the $300 (plus decoders) for a minimum 2 throttle with computer interface setup. But it won't matter. Those who are new in the hobby - and I was there once - want to be led like sheep, being told that this is the way to do model railroading. Model Railroader is particularly guilty of that practice - pushing a set of values that all model railroaders should/must aspire to, and these are the specific steps to get there. But at least they are trying to please their advertisers. The problem is not so much the steps or technologies themselves (DCC, foam construction, linear track plans, time table operations, etc) but that the underlying goals and values may not be as universally shared as many think. Although time table operations are pushed as the ultimate goal of a basement layout, there are many participants who get their thrills from other aspects of the hobby - and who are quite satisfied to never operate a layout in TT&TO fashion. The ultimate model railroading blashphemy is to deliberately use a more suitable (but non-mainstream) technology to better achieve your individual hobby goals. But then the blashphemers seldom are found on these forums, so few forum participants know/realize how diverse the hobby really is. rant over, climbing down from my soapbox Fred W
Fred, while I agree that DCC isn't, in all cases, the cure-all/ holy-grail of model railroading , I wouldn't say that Model Railroader magazine is guilty of pushing any set of values. They are performing the function of any magazine that's dedicated to a specific intrest, they're reporting on the latest developments and running articles on the new system. Most of us know DC block control and articles on that would be rehashing what most of us already know.
All locomotives run on DC, some take DC directly from the track that varies in voltage and polarity to determine speed and direction, some have decoders to take commands from a pulse train riding the track to derive the DC that varies in voltage and polarity to be fed the motor.
Dirty track and poor electrical connections are a problem to both, but a bigger problem to DCC since it may distort the pulse train. And if you're running vintage models or not into computer programming, then DCC definately isn't for you.
Also, the problem with the assertation that DCC only requires two wires is misleading. This may work on a small single loop railroad, but a large layout still needs to be broken into blocks, which I think in DCC terminology are called "control zones." Not doing this will come back to bite you in the butt when (notice I didn't say "if") you need to troubleshoot the system. And the push of "a button," my butt. More like a whole series of buttons in the right sequence, remembering which address is which locomotive, which aux function is what number, etc.