MRC has a bad DCC rep, mainly due to their failed efforts at DCC systems from before that they no longer support. If you buy Digitrax, Lenz, or NCE, you are all but assured that your oldest throttle or accessory will still work with the latest system. One can't say that about MRC. Since we seem to be buying these systems for life (or at least the length of our involvement in the hobby), MRC's obsoleting old systems (will they do it again?) is a non-starter.
MRC also makes so-so DCC decoders. I don't know how many times folks come up to me at our large RR club (60+ members, 10,000 sq. ft. building, 70th year, 9th year with DCC) and ask me to get their MRC sound decoder to work. They are a giant pain in the butt for me and any of the other "DCC gurus" at the club. They won't program, they lose programming, they won't run, etc. Now, to be fair, this also happens to other brands, but it happens far, far more frequently with MRC decoders (to the point where I tell people not to buy them).
jwils1,The Atlas S-2/S-4 decoder has one major problem...it's the wrong engine sound. I took one that was installed to one to our resident "Alcophiles" and ran it for him. The first words out of his mouth when the decoder started up was, "That's a 244." Of course, S-2's and S-4's had 539T's (and S-1's and S-3's had 539's). A 539 is a straight 6-cylinder, while the 539T had a turbo (also used in DL-109's. A 244 is a V-12 (used in FA's, RS-3's, etc.) or V-16 (PA's). Now, even the most tone-deaf should be able to recognize that a 6-cylinder sounds different from a 12-cylinder. BTW, this was also covered in some depth on the Atlas Forum.
Falls Valley RR,You don't have to understand binary to program with Digitrax. They have charts. When I want to have a decoder that is 4-digit, 28/128 speed steps, with analog mode turned off and running forward, I look in the chart in my instruction manual and it says to program CV29 to 34. Sure, it's a binary bit, but I don't have to understand it or learn it as long as I have the chart.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
I agree with Joe. I slept, ate and breathed Binary in college and am sick of it. I know it down to each of the bits.
Harvesting binary values to enter into the DT400 has been replaced by the miracle that is the JMRI. When I click the mouse and the engine lumbers into motion... well... isnt that something!
Thanks, everybody, for your well thought-out posts. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.
I won't be buying until Fall sometime, so I'm hoping that will give some users a chance to try MRC products.
I did get a chance to talk to an MRC sales rep (they called them Technical Advisors, but they're still selling) at a recent train show, and get some hands on time with a Prodigy Advance Squared cab. I really liked the knob (since I'm all thumbs, a thumbwheel just gets in my way. ), and the loco stacking list. I got to "program a decoder" too, but since I'm sure they would make darned certain that they had a terrific decoder that was groomed for the occasion, that doesn't tell me much. And, of course, since what I know about DCC can be printed in 24pt type on the palm of my hand, I'm probably easily impressed.
Thanks again.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
jfugate wrote: It could be you will find out the MRC system knocks the socks off of the competition. Or it could be the MRC system has some annoying limitations we weren't aware of until people had a chance to put the system through its paces. We just don't know yet, and we're getting some mixed messages from MRC.
It could be you will find out the MRC system knocks the socks off of the competition. Or it could be the MRC system has some annoying limitations we weren't aware of until people had a chance to put the system through its paces. We just don't know yet, and we're getting some mixed messages from MRC.
Thanks for your reply Joe. You are exactly right in all your points. If and when I find any of those annoying limitations I'll be the first to admit it. I think everyone needs to know exacty what a system can and can't do in order to make an intelligent decision.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Jerry:
You make some good points. I think my main concern is that MRC finally seems to be getting it right with their Prodigy Advanced Squared system, and then to see something like a $200 list price computer interface isn't encouraging.
Really, the jury's still out, and there are some mixed messages. Reality is the more recent MRC offerings show a lot of promise, but they're not baked in enough yet to say for sure how much of that promise is reality.
If you go with an MRC system, you'll be taking more of a risk than with one of the other well-established big 4 vendors (Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC). It could be you will find out the MRC system knocks the socks off of the competition. Or it could be the MRC system has some annoying limitations we weren't aware of until people had a chance to put the system through its paces. We just don't know yet, and we're getting some mixed messages from MRC.
It very well could be the new MRC Prodigy Advanced Squared system is the new killer DCC system on the block. But it's too early to tell, and we eagerly await hearing about the experiences of those who took the MRC plunge to tell us how it's going.
I'm especially interested in those who have serious operating sessions and who have 4 or more trains out on the road at a time to weigh in. I've seen all the other big 4 systems manage this kind of session load and do well. Can the new MRC offerings do that? I'd like to hear about it if anyone's doing that with an MRC DCC system.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
jfugate wrote: However, I consider any robust DCC system (by robust, I mean a system capable of expanding and growing to support any sized layout, not just smaller layouts) will also have a computer interface, and previous MRC Prodigy systems have not supported a computer interface.NCE Power Cab did not have a computer interface for a long time. But we knew it was coming. Same for MRC and hopefully it will come quicker.The lastest Prodigy Advanced Squared lists a computer interface as coming, but when I go check the price, it's over $200!This is List Price and we know that MRC street prices usually are a lot lower. For example, for my MRC Wireless the cost could be just a little over a $100. Throwing out "over $200" is a little misleading. And, since MRC's will be a wireless interface maybe that will be an advantage for some? Then again, if it's not compatible with Decoder Pro that could be a disadvantage. We'll just have to wait and see. Also, not having a computer interface is not totally bad. One can still have Decoder Pro on your computer and determine the CV settings that can then be programmed into MRC. Certainly not as good as a direct connection but still pretty handy. And, with the MRC Wireless Program on the Main Key, this can be done very quickly.It's like MRC wants to get you in the door by competitive pricing, then make you pay through the nose for the most important accessories. I don't know this to be true. For example, their wireless upgrade (that even works with the Express) is quite economical compared to other system's radio. And, you just don't need many accessories with MRC as they offer a pretty complete package as is. Boosters are available for larger layouts but I don't know how their prices compare.I'm not at all impressed with that strategy, and it's enough for me to NOT recommend their system to newcomers.I think the key here is what kind of layout the newcomer is planning. MRC is perfect (IMO) for many small to medium home layouts. And, I'm not so sure that with added boosters and power districts, and the the coming computer interface, it wouldn't just have some of that robusticity (??) that Joe is talking about. I would like to hear if anyone in a club situation is using MRC Wireless and just how it is performing in that situation.
However, I consider any robust DCC system (by robust, I mean a system capable of expanding and growing to support any sized layout, not just smaller layouts) will also have a computer interface, and previous MRC Prodigy systems have not supported a computer interface.
NCE Power Cab did not have a computer interface for a long time. But we knew it was coming. Same for MRC and hopefully it will come quicker.
The lastest Prodigy Advanced Squared lists a computer interface as coming, but when I go check the price, it's over $200!
This is List Price and we know that MRC street prices usually are a lot lower. For example, for my MRC Wireless the cost could be just a little over a $100. Throwing out "over $200" is a little misleading. And, since MRC's will be a wireless interface maybe that will be an advantage for some? Then again, if it's not compatible with Decoder Pro that could be a disadvantage. We'll just have to wait and see.
Also, not having a computer interface is not totally bad. One can still have Decoder Pro on your computer and determine the CV settings that can then be programmed into MRC. Certainly not as good as a direct connection but still pretty handy. And, with the MRC Wireless Program on the Main Key, this can be done very quickly.
It's like MRC wants to get you in the door by competitive pricing, then make you pay through the nose for the most important accessories.
I don't know this to be true. For example, their wireless upgrade (that even works with the Express) is quite economical compared to other system's radio. And, you just don't need many accessories with MRC as they offer a pretty complete package as is. Boosters are available for larger layouts but I don't know how their prices compare.
I'm not at all impressed with that strategy, and it's enough for me to NOT recommend their system to newcomers.
I think the key here is what kind of layout the newcomer is planning. MRC is perfect (IMO) for many small to medium home layouts. And, I'm not so sure that with added boosters and power districts, and the the coming computer interface, it wouldn't just have some of that robusticity (??) that Joe is talking about. I would like to hear if anyone in a club situation is using MRC Wireless and just how it is performing in that situation.
Joe:
I know you have a great deal of experience and I greatly respect that. My experience is much more limited, although I have used Atlas Commander, Lenz, CVP radio throttles, NCE Power Cab and now MRC.
But one thing I am sure of is that each of the "big five" DCC system producers have systems that are the best for certain individuals in certain situations. I want to be careful not to cast any clouds over a system that just might be the right fit for someone.
I have the MRC PE system and totally love it. I've since added a PA throttle (which should give the PE CV readback capability - I'm still in unboxing mode and haven't gotten to play with it yet) and an 8 amp booster that I got for a super price on ebay. This being said, I can't say that the MRC system "is the best." It's the best for me because I made my decision after spending quite a bit of time determining what I needed, what I wanted, what the future might bring and what I could do without. I find operating the PE/PA to be extremely simple (although it did take me awhile to figure out the button with the light bulb on it was the one that turned the headlight on and off). The price of the PE was very attractive (another pretty decent ebay score) as funds were extremely tight at the time and a low price would get me a system plus allow me to purchase some decoders - what good is getting a system if there is no money left to get decoders?
As Joe Fugate points out above - the MRC system does not have a computer interface capability. This may or may not be a disadvantage. For me, a computer interface is not high enough on my list of priorities that the PE/PA got kicked out of the running. However, I can see where this lack would and should take the PE/PA out of contention for some people. Read some of Joe's posts or check out his DCC video and it becomes very obvious that a computer interface can be a huge benefit depending on one's situtation.
Good luck on your decision!
jfugate wrote: Considering that NCE and EasyDCC come out of the box with a computer interface (no extra cost), and that Lenz or Digitrax charge $70-$100 for a computer interface, MRC setting their computer interface price at $200 is very disappointing.
I have owned my Digitrax Chief for about 10 years. The cost of the computer interface, in my case a MS-100, was a very inexpensive investment considering that I can upgrade my Digitrax system by adding components rather than replacing the entire system. When I purchased my Digitrax system it came with a DT-100 throttle. While I prefer the new DT-4 throttles and use Decoder Pro for programing, my two DT-100 and two DT-300 throttles still work. I am looking forward to the digitrax duplex radio throttles. My point is that my Digtrax system continues to be upgradable without the cost of replacing the entire system. In addition, since Decoder Pro allows me to use my PC as a throttle, the cost of the MS-100 or USB Locobuffer to allow Decoder Pro to connect to the Loconet is about the same as a basic Digitrax throttle.
JIM
MRC's Prodigy Advanced Squared seems to be making good inroads here and there with people. The wireless sounds like it works well.
MRC's throttles have a knob on them instead of a thumbwheel, which is a plus.
Considering that NCE and EasyDCC come out of the box with a computer interface (no extra cost), and that Lenz or Digitrax charge $70-$100 for a computer interface, MRC setting their computer interface price at $200 is very disappointing.
It's like MRC wants to get you in the door by competitive pricing, then make you pay through the nose for the most important accessories. I'm not at all impressed with that strategy, and it's enough for me to NOT recommend their system to newcomers.
NOTE on a computer interface: The power a computer interface gives you for programming decoders is almost essential with today's growing set of decoder features, especially with sound decoders. Once you've done decoder programming with your PC and seen how easy it is to program even the most complex of decoders with a few mouse clicks, you will never want to go back to having to do binary and hexadecimal math while pouring over decoder manuals to find which CV register you need to poke your painstakingly hand-computed value into.
CTValleyRR wrote:Why is it that everyone seems to ignore MRC systems? I mean, I could see if everyone posted and said, "they're no good, because XYZ". But no one even seems to mention them when discussing pros and cons of the various systems.
In my earlier post, I didn't mean to slight EasyDCC and Lenz by not mentioning them. I've had some experience with both and they too can be a good solution depending upon your specific needs.
I just think it's important to investigate all the major systems to find the one that best fits your specific needs. And in the process of investigation, you really broaden your DCC knowledge.
Ive got the MRC 2-8-0 on order. When it arrives, I'll run it through the JMRI and see what we have. Based on another Member's positive experience I really hope that this engine will be a good one.
Usually I dont order something a second time if I have problems with the first.
CTValleyRR wrote: Now this is an honest question, and I would like someone to try to answer it logically and with a factual argument, not an emotional one.Why is it that everyone seems to ignore MRC systems?
Now this is an honest question, and I would like someone to try to answer it logically and with a factual argument, not an emotional one.
Why is it that everyone seems to ignore MRC systems?
I think Simon has given a very accurate assesment of MRC. You tend to hear a lot of negative MRC comments and I think that they primarily stem from experience with their decoders, and some are simply commenting, not from actual experience, but based just on what they have heard.
I don't know anything about their current sales volume but if they keep up a strong marketing program they should become a very major player. There current DCC systems are simply outstanding, especially their Wireless offering. Talking about ease of use, they actually top NCE in this category (IMO). I would like for someone to tell me just what the average home user would want from a DCC system that MRC's current offering doesn't provide? I know that there are some particular features and considerations that some might prefer, but overall, what makes NCE and Digitrax so much better, and worth the much greater price? Don't get me wrong, as I fully appreciate and like the NCE and Digitrax products.
As far as decoders are concerned, MRC's newer ones may be a whole lot better than early offerings. For example, their #1663 sound decoder for the Atlas S2/S4 switcher is excellent, with very good motor control and sound.
I just hate to see bad mouthing of a company based on hearsay. I know that all DCC system manufacturers have problems. I read a lot of the Yahoo Groups. But that's just normal for a sophisticated product involving electronics. I've worked in investigating quality control and know that that there are those that really can contribute to product improvement through sound, constructive reporting of the facts, as opposed to those who simply enjoy making negative attacks which contribute nothing to product improvement. I say let's support all the DCC companies and help them continue to make our hobby better and better.
I have to say that I really hope MRC has turned the corner in DCC quality, perfomance and reliability, because I for one am really pleased with their current offerings, and am looking forward to some new ones that are on the horizon.
Ok, here we go,
Since you live in Edmonton, the best place to look at a system in a store would be Hobby Wholesale on Gateway (Calgary Trail). Now the thing to note is in Alberta there are really onl a few systems that are being used, Digitrax and NCE. Hobby Wholesale stocks Digitrax, MRC, and I think NCE (not sure). Another important item: DO NOT BUY RIGHT AWAY!!! Shop around, and by around I mean online, (tony's train exchange is a good spot) to get the best deal. Find a system that you can expand on, that way whatever you buy will last you for a long time. Personnaly I'd avoid the MRC, and go with Digitrax, but thats becasue I've used Digitrax for a number of years now. The Zephyer would be a good start, but if you want to run lots of locomotives on a large layout, fork over the extra cash for a Super Empire Builder set. The big book of DCC (found at Hobby Wholesale) does a good job of explaining Digitrax and DCC in general, much better than the manual found in the DCC system. Digitrax makes a UT4 throttle that is simple to use (large knob for control).
Another method is to search out local modellers with layouts and ask if you can operate with them. The best way to learn is by trying! Once you have decided on a system ,consider TCS decoders. They are simple to program and use, and if you happen to fry one, TCS will replace it for free! I've heard good things about the NCE system ,but have no had the oppertunity to try it out. Hope this helps!
-Trevor
MRC Got caught asleep at the switch.
They are trying to write themselves into the hobby DCC world and infect the globe with decoders that are fine examples of the early DCC era. /sarcasm.
From the looks of the ads in MR, MRC's Alamo has not yet fallen. They are getting rather creative with 12 volts.
CTV
IMO MRC has not taken the DCC revolution very seriously, or they simply got taken by surprise and did not know how to respond to the challenge to their dominance of the DC control market.
I do believe that this is changing with the latest offerings. The current Prodigy family of DCC systems is I believe their 3rd attempt in a decade with DCC. The prior efforts are now obsolete, have no support and are not compatible with the latest offerings. Couple that with an appalling reputation for DCC decoder performance and reliability and I think you have the answer. Twice bitten, once shy comes to mind.
Contrast this with the companies that would be considered the major players in the last decade and you can see a marked difference in the strategies.
This is all a bit puzzling because MRC has a superb reputation for reliable well made product for DC control. For some reason they got it wrong with their initial efforts into DCC. I have to say that the current product range looks to be very easy to use, well engineered and full featured. Given its obvious similar look to the NCE products, one can see it giving NCE a real run for the money. MRC can likely out-gun NCE in both distribution channels and marketing.
I suspect that they will become a major player in DCC in the coming years.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Why is it that everyone seems to ignore MRC systems? I mean, I could see if everyone posted and said, "they're no good, because XYZ". But no one even seems to mention them when discussing pros and cons of the various systems (Joe managed to get through about 5 pages of posts on his DCC clinic before anyone really mentioned MRC).
Not that I'm particularly in favor of them (although I'll admit I have 5 of their DC Tech 4 units which have been going for years without trouble); but the Prodigy seems comparably priced, readily available, upgradable, and generally comparable to the others. Based on a couple minutes of puttering with the Prodigy Advance2 at a train show, it seemed very intuitive and easy to operate. Are they just such a Johnny-come-lately to the DCC scene that everyone already has other systems?
Some intelligent clarification would be appreciated.
I use a Digitrax Zephyr and found it very easy to use
It has some features not offered on the higher end models
It's ability to read back CVs and display values on the display pannel
is a great feature
Some think it's underpowered at only 2 amps but i have yet to overload it
You can also reduce the speed of locos with out effecting the other hand throttles
Which is great when the grandkids come over
I'm very happy with my $160 purchase
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
As a solo operator on a VERY small layout I have grown to like the two throttles on my digitrax DT400 controller. It makes working with two locos very easy. I am not sure this would be much use on a layout with multiple operators. The ballistic control of the knobs (the throttle changes faster if you move them quickly) allows a really nice touch on speed.
The biggest downside to digitrax is the menus can be a bit cryptic when programming. This will be a non-issue (I hope) when I finally hook the PC up to the layout but I have not had the time to do that thanks to a new Baby. A small down side is the rubber buttons get stuck crooked sometimes.
Digitrax keeps saying they will come out with a duplex radio system but I have seen no evidence that it will actually appear.
I originally bought my system over 6 years ago because at the time it had the cheapest computer interface. I ended up storing it for 5 years and if I was shopping now I would take a hard look at NCE. At the time I bought, it was not as attactive an option.
I would suggest seeing if you can find a store that sells both and seeing which throttle is most comfortable to you.
Chris
Thank you Joe, a ton of usefull reading, I did read and skimmer the whole thing this morning. Lots of info!!!
Thank you to EVERYONE who has posted, lots of usefull things to consider!!!
John
I will jump in behind Joe and say that I have been using NCE since 1999. Before that I used another non DCC command system called Dynatrol. The switch was like going from midnight to noon day sun.
I use NCE Pro, I have four boosters for the four power districts on the layout (3 decks). I have never fallen in love with the T bone Procab, but it is needed, so I have 5 of them. I really like the small cab04pr cabs for just plain running, but as sound moves in, they don't do so good. That is why I keep the procabs around.
I had some early issues with the radio but it is working like a champ now. Layout is 35ft by 28ft, 3 decks. I have no dead spots anywhere I can find.
I keep a second command station on my workbench with one booster for testing, programming, etc. so I do no programming on the main railroad.
I did put in a cab buss at the beginning and I keep it up as there are times a tethered cab is just fine, especially in local switching.
Support? I don't know of any other NCE user around me, and I am electronically challenged. However, the NCE group on Yahoo has some very knowledgable people, though some are very opinionated (but nice). Because I am challenged I am encouraged by the simplicity of the NCE in programming, setting CV's, etc. and I certainly do not plan to switch to any other system.
Bob
jfugate wrote:I also have a forum clinic thread on selecting a DCC system here.
I also have a forum clinic thread on selecting a DCC system here.
Hi Joe, I was hoping to see you jump in here. Joe's clinics are a really good read!
cndash9 wrote:Hi all, so, which system is the best? I'm sure we'll have many different posts for this. Here is my situation: I have many locomotives, I want to use signals and eventually I may want to run things using a computer , radio is likely with tethered cabs in the yards and, no, I don't care for sound. My biggest thing is Ease of Use. Price is not a concern at this time.I've seen Digitrax, NCE and have used CVP Rail Command. I realy liked the simplicity of the CVP system. Can you folks give me pros and cons of what you believe in or used please? Thanks everyone,John
Hi all, so, which system is the best? I'm sure we'll have many different posts for this.
Here is my situation: I have many locomotives, I want to use signals and eventually I may want to run things using a computer , radio is likely with tethered cabs in the yards and, no, I don't care for sound. My biggest thing is Ease of Use. Price is not a concern at this time.
I've seen Digitrax, NCE and have used CVP Rail Command. I realy liked the simplicity of the CVP system. Can you folks give me pros and cons of what you believe in or used please?
Thanks everyone,
If you're serious that ease of use is your highest priority, then NCE would be the system I recommend. There are other considerations, though.
Do you want to have local support and a high likelihood other modelers could bring cabs to an op session? If yes, then Digitrax would likely be your best choice.
If ultra-reliable wireless (true wireless, not wireless that requires you to plug in to acquire), then I would have said EasyDCC until recently. With the most recent release of EasyDCC, there have been isolated reports of more loco runaways -- and NCE is now shipping throttles that use their new Rev 3 wireless that is super-reliable and super-fast response.
So at this point regarding reliable wireless it's something of a toss up between EasyDCC and NCE. The one big thing in NCE's favor is the fact their wireless allows 40-some throttles on a single receiver, while EasyDCC requires a second recevier if you go beyond 8 throttles, and EasyDCC maxes out at 16 wireless throttles.
NCE also has true wireless programming on the main and very robust consisting options, with automatic double-ended consisting built in. Double-ended consisting allows you to quickly make a consist with a mix of locos having lights and sound, and then the function keys will run the lights on the "front" end loco just like you want, and play the sounds in the consist like you want.
If you select the loco on the other end, then that end becomes the front and the light function keys operate the lights on the loco at that end, and all the sound function keys also work against all the locos in the consist. It's very well thought out and very fast to set up.
I have Digitrax Super Chief with radio. I love it. The radio is the best toy in the train room. It must be sort of simple, I made it work.
I got a sound decoder in a brass steamer, so that can't be too hard either. I wired for both DC and DCC but have never used the DC since the DCC was set up. My layout was wired for DC and it took less than an hour to get DCC running. I have since replaced some of the wiring, but not all.
Check out Tony's Train Exchange. There are a lot of articles about DCC there. I am in the begining construction of my 3rd layout and this one will have DCC. I have used the Digitrax on my dad's layout, and it works fine, but the one thing I don't care for is the small knobs for un the UT-4 handheld, not good for short fat fingers. I have really been looking hard at the Lenz set 100. It seems very easy to use and I liked the 10 yr warranty,and big buttons.
Good Luck
cndash9 wrote:which system is the best?
I want to use signals
My biggest thing is Ease of Use.
I realy liked the simplicity of the CVP system.
------------------------
I own a Digitax Zephyr, several MRC Command 2000s, a Lenz, and a non-DCC Railcommand.
Phoebe Vet wrote: 1- Which DCC system do YOU use, and why did you choose it.2- Now that you have had it for a while, do you still feel you made the right choice, or would you choose differently if you had it to do over?
1- Which DCC system do YOU use, and why did you choose it.
2- Now that you have had it for a while, do you still feel you made the right choice, or would you choose differently if you had it to do over?
Yep, good questions. I'll start.
1- Digitrax SuperChief. It's probably more system than I'll ever need (certainly more than I need now!) but I'm a belt-and-braces kind of guy and don't like to have to buy things twice. There are a few things that helped me decide: discussions with system owners and three LHS's, availability of add-ons, (especially locally), reasonably priced and ease of setup and use.
2- Yes, absolutely. Instructions are clear and simple, easy to use, does everything I ask of it. Is there a better system out there? Oh, probably; there's always something better coming along. But the Super Chief does what I want it to do, will grow with me, and I don't feel that I spent too much. I have no complaints.