jfugate wrote: Considering that NCE and EasyDCC come out of the box with a computer interface (no extra cost), and that Lenz or Digitrax charge $70-$100 for a computer interface, MRC setting their computer interface price at $200 is very disappointing.
I have owned my Digitrax Chief for about 10 years. The cost of the computer interface, in my case a MS-100, was a very inexpensive investment considering that I can upgrade my Digitrax system by adding components rather than replacing the entire system. When I purchased my Digitrax system it came with a DT-100 throttle. While I prefer the new DT-4 throttles and use Decoder Pro for programing, my two DT-100 and two DT-300 throttles still work. I am looking forward to the digitrax duplex radio throttles. My point is that my Digtrax system continues to be upgradable without the cost of replacing the entire system. In addition, since Decoder Pro allows me to use my PC as a throttle, the cost of the MS-100 or USB Locobuffer to allow Decoder Pro to connect to the Loconet is about the same as a basic Digitrax throttle.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
I have the MRC PE system and totally love it. I've since added a PA throttle (which should give the PE CV readback capability - I'm still in unboxing mode and haven't gotten to play with it yet) and an 8 amp booster that I got for a super price on ebay. This being said, I can't say that the MRC system "is the best." It's the best for me because I made my decision after spending quite a bit of time determining what I needed, what I wanted, what the future might bring and what I could do without. I find operating the PE/PA to be extremely simple (although it did take me awhile to figure out the button with the light bulb on it was the one that turned the headlight on and off). The price of the PE was very attractive (another pretty decent ebay score) as funds were extremely tight at the time and a low price would get me a system plus allow me to purchase some decoders - what good is getting a system if there is no money left to get decoders?
As Joe Fugate points out above - the MRC system does not have a computer interface capability. This may or may not be a disadvantage. For me, a computer interface is not high enough on my list of priorities that the PE/PA got kicked out of the running. However, I can see where this lack would and should take the PE/PA out of contention for some people. Read some of Joe's posts or check out his DCC video and it becomes very obvious that a computer interface can be a huge benefit depending on one's situtation.
Good luck on your decision!
jfugate wrote: However, I consider any robust DCC system (by robust, I mean a system capable of expanding and growing to support any sized layout, not just smaller layouts) will also have a computer interface, and previous MRC Prodigy systems have not supported a computer interface.NCE Power Cab did not have a computer interface for a long time. But we knew it was coming. Same for MRC and hopefully it will come quicker.The lastest Prodigy Advanced Squared lists a computer interface as coming, but when I go check the price, it's over $200!This is List Price and we know that MRC street prices usually are a lot lower. For example, for my MRC Wireless the cost could be just a little over a $100. Throwing out "over $200" is a little misleading. And, since MRC's will be a wireless interface maybe that will be an advantage for some? Then again, if it's not compatible with Decoder Pro that could be a disadvantage. We'll just have to wait and see. Also, not having a computer interface is not totally bad. One can still have Decoder Pro on your computer and determine the CV settings that can then be programmed into MRC. Certainly not as good as a direct connection but still pretty handy. And, with the MRC Wireless Program on the Main Key, this can be done very quickly.It's like MRC wants to get you in the door by competitive pricing, then make you pay through the nose for the most important accessories. I don't know this to be true. For example, their wireless upgrade (that even works with the Express) is quite economical compared to other system's radio. And, you just don't need many accessories with MRC as they offer a pretty complete package as is. Boosters are available for larger layouts but I don't know how their prices compare.I'm not at all impressed with that strategy, and it's enough for me to NOT recommend their system to newcomers.I think the key here is what kind of layout the newcomer is planning. MRC is perfect (IMO) for many small to medium home layouts. And, I'm not so sure that with added boosters and power districts, and the the coming computer interface, it wouldn't just have some of that robusticity (??) that Joe is talking about. I would like to hear if anyone in a club situation is using MRC Wireless and just how it is performing in that situation.
However, I consider any robust DCC system (by robust, I mean a system capable of expanding and growing to support any sized layout, not just smaller layouts) will also have a computer interface, and previous MRC Prodigy systems have not supported a computer interface.
NCE Power Cab did not have a computer interface for a long time. But we knew it was coming. Same for MRC and hopefully it will come quicker.
The lastest Prodigy Advanced Squared lists a computer interface as coming, but when I go check the price, it's over $200!
This is List Price and we know that MRC street prices usually are a lot lower. For example, for my MRC Wireless the cost could be just a little over a $100. Throwing out "over $200" is a little misleading. And, since MRC's will be a wireless interface maybe that will be an advantage for some? Then again, if it's not compatible with Decoder Pro that could be a disadvantage. We'll just have to wait and see.
Also, not having a computer interface is not totally bad. One can still have Decoder Pro on your computer and determine the CV settings that can then be programmed into MRC. Certainly not as good as a direct connection but still pretty handy. And, with the MRC Wireless Program on the Main Key, this can be done very quickly.
It's like MRC wants to get you in the door by competitive pricing, then make you pay through the nose for the most important accessories.
I don't know this to be true. For example, their wireless upgrade (that even works with the Express) is quite economical compared to other system's radio. And, you just don't need many accessories with MRC as they offer a pretty complete package as is. Boosters are available for larger layouts but I don't know how their prices compare.
I'm not at all impressed with that strategy, and it's enough for me to NOT recommend their system to newcomers.
I think the key here is what kind of layout the newcomer is planning. MRC is perfect (IMO) for many small to medium home layouts. And, I'm not so sure that with added boosters and power districts, and the the coming computer interface, it wouldn't just have some of that robusticity (??) that Joe is talking about. I would like to hear if anyone in a club situation is using MRC Wireless and just how it is performing in that situation.
Joe:
I know you have a great deal of experience and I greatly respect that. My experience is much more limited, although I have used Atlas Commander, Lenz, CVP radio throttles, NCE Power Cab and now MRC.
But one thing I am sure of is that each of the "big five" DCC system producers have systems that are the best for certain individuals in certain situations. I want to be careful not to cast any clouds over a system that just might be the right fit for someone.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Jerry:
You make some good points. I think my main concern is that MRC finally seems to be getting it right with their Prodigy Advanced Squared system, and then to see something like a $200 list price computer interface isn't encouraging.
Really, the jury's still out, and there are some mixed messages. Reality is the more recent MRC offerings show a lot of promise, but they're not baked in enough yet to say for sure how much of that promise is reality.
If you go with an MRC system, you'll be taking more of a risk than with one of the other well-established big 4 vendors (Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC). It could be you will find out the MRC system knocks the socks off of the competition. Or it could be the MRC system has some annoying limitations we weren't aware of until people had a chance to put the system through its paces. We just don't know yet, and we're getting some mixed messages from MRC.
It very well could be the new MRC Prodigy Advanced Squared system is the new killer DCC system on the block. But it's too early to tell, and we eagerly await hearing about the experiences of those who took the MRC plunge to tell us how it's going.
I'm especially interested in those who have serious operating sessions and who have 4 or more trains out on the road at a time to weigh in. I've seen all the other big 4 systems manage this kind of session load and do well. Can the new MRC offerings do that? I'd like to hear about it if anyone's doing that with an MRC DCC system.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
jfugate wrote: It could be you will find out the MRC system knocks the socks off of the competition. Or it could be the MRC system has some annoying limitations we weren't aware of until people had a chance to put the system through its paces. We just don't know yet, and we're getting some mixed messages from MRC.
It could be you will find out the MRC system knocks the socks off of the competition. Or it could be the MRC system has some annoying limitations we weren't aware of until people had a chance to put the system through its paces. We just don't know yet, and we're getting some mixed messages from MRC.
Thanks for your reply Joe. You are exactly right in all your points. If and when I find any of those annoying limitations I'll be the first to admit it. I think everyone needs to know exacty what a system can and can't do in order to make an intelligent decision.
Thanks, everybody, for your well thought-out posts. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.
I won't be buying until Fall sometime, so I'm hoping that will give some users a chance to try MRC products.
I did get a chance to talk to an MRC sales rep (they called them Technical Advisors, but they're still selling) at a recent train show, and get some hands on time with a Prodigy Advance Squared cab. I really liked the knob (since I'm all thumbs, a thumbwheel just gets in my way. ), and the loco stacking list. I got to "program a decoder" too, but since I'm sure they would make darned certain that they had a terrific decoder that was groomed for the occasion, that doesn't tell me much. And, of course, since what I know about DCC can be printed in 24pt type on the palm of my hand, I'm probably easily impressed.
Thanks again.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I agree with Joe. I slept, ate and breathed Binary in college and am sick of it. I know it down to each of the bits.
Harvesting binary values to enter into the DT400 has been replaced by the miracle that is the JMRI. When I click the mouse and the engine lumbers into motion... well... isnt that something!
MRC has a bad DCC rep, mainly due to their failed efforts at DCC systems from before that they no longer support. If you buy Digitrax, Lenz, or NCE, you are all but assured that your oldest throttle or accessory will still work with the latest system. One can't say that about MRC. Since we seem to be buying these systems for life (or at least the length of our involvement in the hobby), MRC's obsoleting old systems (will they do it again?) is a non-starter.
MRC also makes so-so DCC decoders. I don't know how many times folks come up to me at our large RR club (60+ members, 10,000 sq. ft. building, 70th year, 9th year with DCC) and ask me to get their MRC sound decoder to work. They are a giant pain in the butt for me and any of the other "DCC gurus" at the club. They won't program, they lose programming, they won't run, etc. Now, to be fair, this also happens to other brands, but it happens far, far more frequently with MRC decoders (to the point where I tell people not to buy them).
jwils1,The Atlas S-2/S-4 decoder has one major problem...it's the wrong engine sound. I took one that was installed to one to our resident "Alcophiles" and ran it for him. The first words out of his mouth when the decoder started up was, "That's a 244." Of course, S-2's and S-4's had 539T's (and S-1's and S-3's had 539's). A 539 is a straight 6-cylinder, while the 539T had a turbo (also used in DL-109's. A 244 is a V-12 (used in FA's, RS-3's, etc.) or V-16 (PA's). Now, even the most tone-deaf should be able to recognize that a 6-cylinder sounds different from a 12-cylinder. BTW, this was also covered in some depth on the Atlas Forum.
Falls Valley RR,You don't have to understand binary to program with Digitrax. They have charts. When I want to have a decoder that is 4-digit, 28/128 speed steps, with analog mode turned off and running forward, I look in the chart in my instruction manual and it says to program CV29 to 34. Sure, it's a binary bit, but I don't have to understand it or learn it as long as I have the chart.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
jfugate wrote: MRC's throttles have a knob on them instead of a thumbwheel, which is a plus.
MRC's throttles have a knob on them instead of a thumbwheel, which is a plus.
It's pretty easy to convert the NCE procab thumbwheel to a knob.
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn1/procab_knob.htm
"Best" is subjective.
Everyone thinks the one they use is the best, that's why they bought it. Who would buy "second best"?
The better question would be "Why did you buy the one you did, and how do you feel about it now that you have had it for a while?"
FYI I have the Digitrax Chief. That is the one I like best. That does not mean it IS the best.
Best for you is the one that YOU like best.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
armchair wrote: I have owned an Atlas dcc set.It was fairly easy to use, it did not last very long, I'm not sure Atlas is even still making those.
I believe that they were made for Atlas by Lenz and that some if not all the Lenz throttles were compatible with it.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 wrote: armchair wrote: I have owned an Atlas dcc set.It was fairly easy to use, it did not last very long, I'm not sure Atlas is even still making those.I believe that they were made for Atlas by Lenz and that some if not all the Lenz throttles were compatible with it.
Correct, including the Lenz cordless phone option, and even the CVP radio throttle will work with the Atlas Commander. However none of these throttles will perform any operation that the Commander itself cannot do.
Phoebe Vet wrote:"Best" is subjective.Everyone thinks the one they use is the best, that's why they bought it. Who would buy "second best"?The better question would be "Why did you buy the one you did, and how do you feel about it now that you have had it for a while?"FYI I have the Digitrax Chief. That is the one I like best. That does not mean it IS the best.Best for you is the one that YOU like best.
So now you've got my curiosity up ... why did you go with the Digitrax Chief? Did you try lots of other systems first, was it cheaper, why? And now that you've had it for a while, how do you feel about it? How often do you use it in an op session, and how many trains at a time do you run? What is your least favorite aspect of your Chief system?
Do tell!
I chose Digitrax because I am a fan of "geedunks" (A term I learned in the Navy meaning things that are neat, but nobody really NEEDS.), and Digitrax seems to have more of them. I like the ability to program switch routes and cascading switch routes and the fact that you can initiate a route with a pushbutton as well as the throttle. My layout is 20x18 feet. I have 8 trains on the layout, but I only run 2 trains at a time. I could have gotten by with the Zephyr, but I wanted at least 5 amps, and by the time I added a second throttle, it wouldn‘t have saved much over the Chief. The Empire Builder would have been good enough for me if it used a command center instead of a booster. But then, an Empire Builder with a command center IS a Chief. I don't have signals yet, but probably will someday, and Digitrax has the accessories to do that easily. I like the dual knobs on the DT-400 throttle.
So, it was a lot of little things combined. I have nothing bad to say about any of the other systems.
hubbards98 wrote:I was considering the Digitrax Zephyr, but I was wondering about the Altas Commander, does anyone know anything about this product
Atlas no longer sells the Commander. They do still offer documentation support and a few accessories on their web site, but otherwise it has been dropped from their product line.
simon1966 wrote: hubbards98 wrote:I was considering the Digitrax Zephyr, but I was wondering about the Altas Commander, does anyone know anything about this productAtlas no longer sells the Commander. They do still offer documentation support and a few accessories on their web site, but otherwise it has been dropped from their product line.
Really...Makes you wonder why they would still have the price on it, well I guess Zephyr it is
I have mixed emotions about the Commander. It was my first DCC system and it was an exciting moment when I first started using it. But, I'm afraid technology advancements have passed it by, thus it's no longer produced.
But, if you can get one cheap somewhere it just might be very good for certain situations. Here is what it can do:
All in all this is a pretty powerful little system. It can run quits a few locos at the same time. I thinks it's best for a non-sound layout because of the limited functions (no way to mute sounds unless your decoder supports double clicking F0). In some ways it's very easy to use but in others the newer systems are much faster and easier. I'm presently using mine on my N scale test track and debating whether to use it on the N scale layout that I'm constructing, although I'll likely use my MRC Wireless for both my HO layout and N since they are in close proximity.
simon1966 wrote:hubbards98 I don't believe that you can see it for sale on the Atlas web site. In the on-line catalog you can only see accessory items for it. I don't doubt that there are still some sitting on shelves in hobby shops around the nation though.
Maybe we are talking about 2 different things...I found it on the Atlas Web site, sells for $169.95
Phoebe Vet wrote: Which system is best is like asking which car is best. There will be as many opinions as there are members.Perhaps a better question would have been: 1- Which DCC system do YOU use, and why did you choose it.Digitrax Big Boy, purchased in 1995-96(?), and I like it. It was reportably the best at it's time. The upgradability was a plus. Not sure about now, though. As usual technology has improved. I think there are functions on newer sound equipped locos I can't access, but I really am not sure yet.2- Now that you have had it for a while, do you still feel you made the right choice, or would you choose differently if you had it to do over?I made the right choice in 1995-96 when I purchased the unit, but with todays choices, I really don't know where I would go. I think I would still go with Digitrax, simply because they are just across town, and I like to keep my dollars spent locally.I like the Digitrax response. I would like to see other systems recommended the same way by an actual user.
Which system is best is like asking which car is best. There will be as many opinions as there are members.
Perhaps a better question would have been:
1- Which DCC system do YOU use, and why did you choose it.
Digitrax Big Boy, purchased in 1995-96(?), and I like it. It was reportably the best at it's time. The upgradability was a plus. Not sure about now, though. As usual technology has improved. I think there are functions on newer sound equipped locos I can't access, but I really am not sure yet.
2- Now that you have had it for a while, do you still feel you made the right choice, or would you choose differently if you had it to do over?
I made the right choice in 1995-96 when I purchased the unit, but with todays choices, I really don't know where I would go. I think I would still go with Digitrax, simply because they are just across town, and I like to keep my dollars spent locally.
I like the Digitrax response. I would like to see other systems recommended the same way by an actual user.
I haven't used a lot of systems, so I don't have a lot of DCC experience, but I'm comfortable with my old system. I will upgrade to a newer Digitrax soon, (not sure what yet, as long as it's compatible with my Big Boy) and I guess a new learning process will begin.
I'm also looking for info and suggestions.
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
simon1966 wrote:Nope, same thing and sure enough if you use the Atlas search it is there. Appologies for that. I am almost 100% certain that it is not available for sale and that these are some older pages still up on their web site for some reason. At $169 it is no bargain, either the Zephyr or the Power cab can be had for less and offer a lot more.
No problem
I'm new at this & only plan on running 2-3 trains on my layout for now, so maybe the Zephyr would be a good choice, then way down the road I decide on something bigger.
I went the Zephyr route myself and have found it to be a fine starting point and a perfect platform upon which to build. The real power of the Digitrax solution IMO comes from the Loconet which is the common network interface that Digitrax designed to hook everything together. When you want to add stuff you generally just daisy chain on to the loconet. For me this has led to the addition of a booster, a couple of extra throttles, a wireless interface and a PC hooked in to both run Decoder pro and use some of the other neat diagnostic tools that Decoderpro offers for Loconet. My Zephyr still sits in the middle of all this running the whole show and acting as a yard booster/throttle. With the two jump throttles in action it is not uncommon for me to have 6 operators running on my layout at the same time (One virtual throttle on the PC). Just in November at my sons birthday, I was able to entertain 12 2nd graders and have what might be called a chaotic experience with all these throttles in action at once!
Now, to be fair, when I purchased the Zephyr several years ago there was really nothing out there to compare it to. NCE did not have an entry level system. MRC were far from consideration and had not introduced the Prodigy. I don't even think the Bachmann solution was out there? Atlas did have the Commander, but it was clear to me that the Z offered a lot more for not much difference in price. It seemed to me that the Zephyr gave me the full capabilities of an advanced Digitrax system with compromises that I could live with. The 10 slot and 10 throttle limit have not been an issue for me. If I were making the decision today, I would be giving serious consideration to both the Powercab and the Prodigy. I still think I would choose the Z simply because I don't think either of the others can actually do what I do with my Z. I simply have too many occasions when I have groups of kids at the house and I like to give as many of them a chance to run a train as I can. The Z and the jump throttles are so simply for a kid to run that I don't have to concern myself if they have no experience.
Best is a relative term and I can give you my experience. I have had 4 different DCC systems which was the
1. Bachmann EZ DCC
2. MRC Prodigy Advance
3. Digitrax Radio Super Chief
4. NCE Power Cab
In ease of use, I would say:
1.MRC/Bachmann tie
2.NCE
3.Digitrax(although when you get the hang of it, it is quite easy)
In overall capability I would say:
1.Digitrax
2. NCE
3. MRC
4. Bachmann
If you were asking my opinion in getting a system for home use, I would say get the Digitrax Super Chief as it is the most capable by:
1. Running 2 locos without toggling as it has 2 seperate throttle knobs on the throttle. I can't actually think of any flaws like the other systems.
2. No recall issue of only 2 locos like NCE(if I had known, I would have not bought it)...not sure if the Procab has a larger recall capacity, if so, then disregard this point
3. If I remember correctly, with the MRC system, you had to assign a consist # and the locos to that number and you were not able to access sound functions and control throttle at the same time. Maybe it is upgraded in the newer systems, and if so, disregard this point.
4. Bachmann is quickly outgrown after a week...if that long as it has very limited capabilities that I would not recommend to anyone serious in model railroading.
3.
leejax01 wrote:2. No recall issue of only 2 locos like NCE(if I had known, I would have not bought it)...not sure if the Procab has a larger recall capacity, if so, then disregard this point
Full ProCab system allows a recall stack of 6 locos ...
Been eagerly watching this thread since it appeared, and more confused now.
Starting up, new layout after 12 years out of hobby. Was previously a 12vdc modeler
Want to run 2-3 locos to start, maybe 1 or 2 with sound. Layout design is a 10X8 around the room 2' shelf layout. Looking to buy 1 Atlas Gold loco to start.
Summary of what I get from this thread, & other comments results in my system choice as follows:
Oh what to do. The Pwr cab with boosters, if/when needed, or MCR Prod. Adv 2? DRILINES gave me good logic to going with Power Cab. Recall stack of 2, and low amps bothers me with the Power cab.
Perhaps Joe Fugate will see this and chime in! Looking for an easy answer.
Don, another way to look at it is what end point do you want to have?
Joe and others have pointed out one of the draw backs of expanding the Powercab is the redundant parts you are left with as you expand. If you start with the basic 1.7 amp system and add the Smart Booster the initial 1.7 amp internal booster is redundant and you are left with the 3 amp capacity of the smart booster. If you then decide to move up to the Pro then the Smart booster is redundant and you are basically left with a throttle from your original purchase. This becomes a rather expensive way of getting a Pro with an extra throttle. So if I were in your shoes considering the NCE product line, I would decide on my end point needs and then select the most cost effective way of achieving it.
It may just turn out that the MRC offering better suits your end point. Either way you will end up with a good system.