FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[simon1966]

As far as I am aware neither the NCE or the Digitrax radio can legally be sold outside of the US. This is apparently the main reason Digitrax offers IR to provide some wireless support to customers outside of North America. Paul, I use the Digitrax IR and it is worth noting that it is directional. So careful attention to the placement of the UR90 panel is essential. In my case I have it in the cieling in the center of my layout room (around the walls design) so it works fine for me.

[devils]

Simon does it give any problems apart from having to point it at the reciever, is there a reasonably wide arc like a tv remote, I assume it's a bit slower than radio to transfer data as well.
Paul

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by devils

Simon does it give any problems apart from having to point it at the reciever, is there a reasonably wide arc like a tv remote, I assume it's a bit slower than radio to transfer data as well.
Paul

It seems fairly directional to me. You can add more UR90's to the system for better coverage. It seems to respond quickly to me, so if there is a speed difference it is not noticeable.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Say, D:

Now you can see why I'm so insistant that you want to use something like decoderPro to program decoders?

Have you tried speed matching yet with decoderPro? DecoderPro allows you to open the decoder windows for two different decoders *at the same time* which makes speed matching a *breeze* ! There's nothing like point-and-click decoder programming with a mouse on your PC!

As to systems, Digitrax and NCE are both great systems, but I personally prefer the NCE system's true wireless that allows acquiring a loco without having to plug in and its very obvious user interface.

Are you saying that with decoder PRO all you need to do is save the speed CVs from one locomotive to another and they will then run the same. Is this true? Is it true regardless of model and make. This was my assumnption when I bought the equipment to do this - but I'm not so sure now . I spoke to one LHS and he still uses the trial and error method of placing two engines on the track and using programming on the main - making adjustments through Decoder Pro.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solosdad

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Now you can see why I'm so insistant that you want to use something like decoderPro to program decoders?

Have you tried speed matching yet with decoderPro? DecoderPro allows you to open the decoder windows for two different decoders *at the same time* which makes speed matching a *breeze* ! There's nothing like point-and-click decoder programming with a mouse on your PC!

Are you saying that with decoder PRO all you need to do is save the speed CVs from one locomotive to another and they will then run the same. Is this true? Is it true regardless of model and make. This was my assumnption when I bought the equipment to do this - but I'm not so sure now . I spoke to one LHS and he still uses the trial and error method of placing two engines on the track and using programming on the main - making adjustments through Decoder Pro.

Boy, I wish setting the CVs in two different locos' decoders would make them run the same. Unfortunately, no, that's not how it works.

Even two locos from the same manufacturer, with identical decoders installed in them, may not run the same if you just copy the decoder settings. Mechanical mechanisms being what they are, two locos from the same manufacturer may run differently -- that's just the way life is.

The beauty of DCC, and especially DecoderPro, is I can get the two locos to run nearly indentically at all speed settings with less effort than just about any other method.

DecoderPro allows you to open up multiple windows on your PC, one for each loco. Then you can bounce back and forth between loco windows, altering decoder speed settings via ops mode programming (aka programming on the main).

I put the two locos on a section of track on my layout where there is a long straight stretch with two parallel tracks, then I alter the CV settings of the two locos until I get them to run neck and neck at any speed setting.

I start with setting the throttle to 1/4 speed (speed step 7 out of 28) and get the locos to start out the same and run together side by side. Then I go to full speed (speed step 28) and get the locos to run neck and neck.

Often, this is all it takes. If the locos run together at speed steps 7 and 28, and the speed curve you've used in DecoderPro has the same contour (straightline, logarithmic, etc.) then the locos will be very closely matched at all the other speed steps.

[tgsargent]

Joe,

This is only my second post (I do a lot of reading), and I must say I am amazed at the amount of knowledge and experience that is displayed in the 17 pages I have read on this forum. Many, many questions I have had have been answered. I really appreciate you and all contributors taking the time and effort to share this information. I'm looking forward to your next and following segments.

Regards,

Terry

[Anonymous]

Joe,
I just found your site and it has been a boon to my DCC learning.
I’m currently wiring a Free-mo module and am interested in the 3M suitcase connectors you use. Do you have a part number for them?
Thank you for starting this site and sharing your information.
John B

[jfugate]

JB:

I use 3M type 905 connectors -- 3M colors them red. You can often find these at auto supply stores.

Another more expensive alternative is 3M type 567 connectors - 3M colors them tan. They are more robust and cost more. I've never found the extra price to be worth it. My layout's coming up on 15 years old and I've never had a single 905 suitcase connector fail -- ever.

Some people on here with high humidity environments report some suitcase connector failure at 10+ years, so take that into account. My layout is in a dry and heated basement, and the humidity in Oregon typically runs around 30%, so I'm probably less likely to have issues with these connectors.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Joe,
Luckily the free-mo wiring is simple enough to replace if anything goes bad and a 10-year life span of a module, I believe, is more than adequate.
Thanks again,
John B

[devils]

relucas
Will take time but read through this, it contains loads of useful information. There is also another thread about choosing a DCC system buried at least 14 pages down the list. Follow the links to Joe's page too for more bits and pieces.

[DavidGSmith]

Joe,I got my new system ( CVP EASYDCC ) wired in and used your schematic for the programing track. I cannot locate a 4pdt switch so I used two dpdt s. Seems to work but is not as idiot proof as yours. I try to make everything idiot proof. Have to!!
Al at CVP was as great a help as you said he would be. Al warned me that the Broadway 2-8-0 with sound is not a good loco to program as a first engine, any suggestions for this engine would be helpful.
Dave

[Bob Hayes]

David,
Are you in California or Canada? If in Calif., have you tried Fry's Electronics for your 4pdt switch? Or on-line at Mouser or Digikey?
Bob Hayes

[DavidGSmith]

Canada, just about 1 hr north of Toronto Ont. I had a look at Digikeys book, they did not list one with screw terminals which is what I wanted.

[Anonymous]

Joe,

I am new to model railroading, and new to trains.com, this was effectivley the first thread I read. Although, this point has been made here already, I think it worth repeating, the information you have provided here is of great value, and I think more importantly your ability to provide it in such a clear manner. You are certainly an asset to this community.

Forgive me for going back in the thread a bit, but I am an electrical engineer, and although I fully understand the benefit of the current limiting capabilites of the 1156 lamp (and am enamored by both the elegance and functionality of this solution) I do have a question pertaining to the following graphic:

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

TOPIC THIS POST: Wiring details for 1156 bulb train blocks
...
Once you add all the toggles, bulbs, and track feeders for your power district, here's what you get. This is the complete wiring to add 1156 bulb short management to your layout.


(clcik to enlarge)
...

In the far left "bulb sub-district" (and the far right "bulb sub-district") you have multiple taps from your main "+" bus and your lamped "-" bus to that sub-section of track. I understand that this sub-section of track would be an average "train length" long, so I am curious why you would have more than one electrical connection here?

Thanks again for all the great information.

Mike

[jfugate]

Mike:

Thanks for your kind words on my forum clinic content.

The multiple connections is a perhaps lame attempt on my part to indicate you run feeders to individual flex track section in each block, and *do not* rely on rail joiners to carry the electricity.

You can solder rail joints, and I sometimes do in certain cases, but as a general rule, I don't recommend soldering rail joiners everywhere since that limits the track's ability to expand and contract freely with temperature and humidity changes in the seasons.

Make sense?

[DavidGSmith]

Joe in an earlier post I said that Al at CVP indicated that a BL 2-8-0 with sound is a difficult one to program as a first loco. I forgot to say that it is On30. Any suggestions re programing would be helpful.
Dave

[Anonymous]

Thanks Joe,

I had sort of pieced that together from some of the other posts, I ended up reading all 17 or 18 pages of the post yesterday. Electrically, this reduces the load across each of the individual taps, which is probably a good thing as well. It would certainly allow you to use even smaller tap wires from the bus to the track.

Thanks for the reply, and for the clinic.

I am just in the process of researching everything right now, my son and I have been running some off-the-shelf DC stuff on Bachman E-Z track, we've just been playing with it, but when I started reading about DCC I became intrigued, and am currently just soaking up everything I can before I decide on "how big" I want to go.

Any suggestions on design software? I actually ended up drawing all the EZ-Track pieces to scale in Autocad so I could get some idea of what kind of layouts I could make on our piece of plywood in the garage. I quickly realized how limited I was in trying to do it in autocad, (not to mention the rediculous amount of time it took me just to draw the pieces) and have been checking out some of the packages available commercially. Any help would be appreciated.

Mike

[jfugate]

Take a look at 3rd-Planit. Very nice piece of software for layout design -- once you get past the learning curve.

[pcarrell]

Bump

[BriansGrandy]

I could not agree more wholeheartedly with what was said in the first 2 paragraphs. I could have bought my DCC system years ago if I had all the money back that I spent on additional power packs, block control switches, extra wiring, etc. Your point is also well taken about the fleet size. When I converted last month, I only had 8 locos. I was able to convert all 8 and install a Zephyr system in less than 2 hours for $300.

[jfugate]

My latest decoder discovery is the D13SRJ from NCE. Not only is this little hummer available for about $13 in quantity (making it a good fleet decoder), the torque compensation feature is simply outstanding.

The torque compensation means you can program the decoder to deliver pulse power at startup to get very nice slow-speed performance. As the loco speed increases the pulse power dies away into pure DC so the motor runs smooth and cool.

And on top of everything else, it's very easy to add a "keep" alive circuit to this decoder so it will keep the loco running on dirty track and across dead frogs. Here's some details on the keep alive circuit. And if you aren't sure just what a keep alive circuit buys you, click here to find out.

I got the parts for a keep alive circuit for 10 locos from Mouser Electronics for about $8. That's right, 80 cents per loco. Now that's darn cheap.

[n2mopac]

Joe,

Since you brought the subject up (roundaboutly), can you recommend a good and reasonably priced N scale decoder for general use. I know you are and HO guy, but I thought you may have hears an interesting tidbit somewhere. I have been using Digitraz N and Z scale decoders and am happy with them, but I'm always in the market to improve and to save $$$.

Ron

 

[Bob Hayes]

David,

Go to www.allelectronics.com and check out CAT# STS=70 & 71. STS-70 is a 4pdt, on-on, and STS-71 is a 4pdt, on-off-on.  Both have screw terminals, and cost under $4.00 each.

Bob Hayes

[boxcar_jim]

Simon:

Good point ... both Digitrax and Zimo use more of a peer-to-peer network for their layout "command bus" (not unlike an Ethernet computer network) which makes your "throttle/command bus" routing options more flexible if you are using wired throttes.

The disadvantage of LocoNet or Zimo's CAN-bus if you use it for other devices like turnout control or signaling is you are locked in to Digitrax or Zimo products for these things, and they can be pricey for a larger layout. If you don't take this route for turnouts and signals, then you can either use local stand-alone circuit boards or use Chubb's Computer Interface, or Rich Weyand's Tractronics system if you want to hook it all together into a computer for more sophisticated applications.

Both of Chubb's and Weyand's systems use more standard RS232 or RS485 serial communication to the devices (read: generally cheaper) and your selection options are broader -- but this is all way beyond the scope of basic DCC loco operation, which we're focusing on here.

You can also just use local pushbuttons or toggles to throw turnouts and you don't need any of this fancy stuff if you don't want it. Or you can do like I do, and throw your turnouts manually (I use 2" brass doorbolts mounted on the fascia) ... manual turnout control works well for me because all the prototype Siskiyou Line turnouts use manual switchstands at the turnouts.

Surely a third option might be to run two isolated power buses, one for track power and one for accessory decoders, alongside your logic (LocoNet / Xpress Bus / etc) network for throttles and PC hook up. This way you are not locked into one manufacturer for accessory decoders, and if you get a short on the track bus (derail / running wrong way into a power routing turnout / etc) you don't loose the ability to switch turnouts or signals.

[jfugate]

And once you have your DCC system, here's this thread for some insights on using it.

[jfugate]

It's been a while since anything was posted to this forum clinic, but here's a significant new update:

Latest update on using auto tail light bulb short management on your DCC layout.

If you have ever thought of using the 1156 bulb trick to handle shorts on your DCC layout, be sure and check out this link, since it has significant new information! Very useful stuff.

[grayfox1119]

Excellent info Joe, thanks for sharing with the troops. I printed that page for quick reference in the future.

[Noah Hofrichter]

My latest decoder discovery is the D13SRJ from NCE. Not only is this little hummer available for about $13 in quantity (making it a good fleet decoder), the torque compensation feature is simply outstanding. <snip>

I couldn't agree with you more there Joe. I love the little D13SRJs. I can buy them individually from my LHS for only about $14, and they are a good price and a great little decoder. It seems to help quite a bit with quieting my motors down too, as when I install this decoder it usually makes the locomotive start smoothly and run quietly. I use these in my locomotives that I run on my club's layout, and at shows they are running for several hours at a time sometimes, and they always perform well.

I'll have to look into the keep alive circuit too, that seems like something I could use. Thanks for posting the link to that.

Noah

[SpaceMouse]

Hi Joe,

I have decided to take on a problem. We have DCC on our club layout and no one here seems to know a thing about it. It is an older Digitrax system set up about 6 or 7 years ago or so, designed by Digitrax. There is a base unit, an Empire Builder and two power boosters. The thing is a mess. Our club tries to be as accommodating as possible so when the layout was wired it was set up to be both DCC and DC. Of course, once the DCC system was running they never used the DC--as far as I can tell, ever.

But the systems has problems. There are times when the several engines are in a power block that the digital throttles will automatically slow down. I mean if you are running at 55, without touching the controls, the digital readout goes down 55..54..53..to 0 in about 3-4 seconds. If you keep trying to run, the decoders will reset or in the case of one Broadway, need a hard reset to function. There are three reverse loops with PM4's to work them, but they don't work. We use toggles to control the polarity. The quirks to the sysem are too many to mention.

To the club the system is like the Steve the hedge on Over the Hedge. All Hail Steve. Nobody is allowed to touch it, and if they did, they wouldn't know what to do.

So someone has to get a handle on it. The Digitrax manuals are next to useless if you don't have a context in which to read them.

So the question is, how do I proceed?   

[jfugate]

Chip:

There are several opinionated Digitrax owners -- er, ah, I mean knowledgeable Digitrax users over on my web site forum.

If you post questions over there about this system, I betcha they can help.

Also, Randy (and others) on this forum are very knowledgeable Digitrax users as well. Between the two forums, they should have you up and working like you need.

I do know one of the most issue-laden Digitrax system is the old Empire Builder, so a command station replacement may be in order.