Just Wanna PlayI assumed that imperfect contact between the loco wheels and the rails was generating sparks and some kind of electro-chemical reaction was generating the crud. But I was amazed at how much material built up with no clue as to where it was coming from. Sparks generate ozone, which is super-reactive. Was ozone eroding the nickel-silver rails? Was it also generating crud on the rails themselves? Good gosh, I dunno.
Eight-wheel pick up (4 axle diesels) helps to disburse the chances that too many wheels will be interrupted at the same time.
Part of the issue of signal disruption...a big part...is the design of the locomotive's system of current pick up and distribution to the Board. Some new locos still rely on wheel wipers (On some Bachmann's I've noticed). Less expensive and less reliable...even in DC. Many conversions of older locos still rely on less than stellar current pickup design.
Most new locos have more robust connections between the wheels, axles, and PC boards, but issues can still happen with loose wires, poor solders, and loose plugs....which would be an issue regardless of the power source.
All of my locos or of the more pricey types, and I would expect that they would work just fine over all of my track even when one truck is disconnected (which I do often when I'm chasing drivetrain noise).
Question: What would be the issue with using good ol' radio control to a battery powered loco and dead rail? Why does it have to be a digital-based signal like Bluetooth? On board sound and other features may not be possible with radio, but as a motor control, why would Bluetooth be more reliable than radio in a confinded space we run our layouts?
- Douglas
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL And yet DCC still seems to be more sensitive to dirty track of course if power is lost for a long enough time for the processor to reset, it's going to take time to reboot and then wait to receive the speed command the error detection byte makes it is less sensitive to packet corruption because of dirty track.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And yet DCC still seems to be more sensitive to dirty track
of course if power is lost for a long enough time for the processor to reset, it's going to take time to reboot and then wait to receive the speed command
the error detection byte makes it is less sensitive to packet corruption because of dirty track.
And how many milliseconds of power loss does it take to reset the processor? My locos have a very reliable speed and direction memory for a few milliseconds. It is called a flywheel.
Again, I am only going by my own observations on about 6 large DCC layouts that I operated on for a number of years.
Still seems to me, the best command control system would sent the control information thru the air directly to the locomotive, Bluetooth or some other radio protocol, but it would eliminate a lot of hardware for those not interested in signaling.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt is called a flywheel.
in dcc it's called a keep alive
ATLANTIC CENTRALStill seems to me, the best command control system would sent the control information thru the air directly to the locomotive, Bluetooth or some other radio protocol, but it would eliminate a lot of hardware for those not interested in signaling.
wireless doesn't eliminate hardware in the loco, it requires more and dead-rail adds batteries.
the other advantage of track power is for lighted cars ...
... as well as block detection
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL It is called a flywheel. in dcc it's called a keep alive ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still seems to me, the best command control system would sent the control information thru the air directly to the locomotive, Bluetooth or some other radio protocol, but it would eliminate a lot of hardware for those not interested in signaling. wireless doesn't eliminate hardware in the loco, it requires more and dead-rail adds batteries. the other advantage of track power is for lighted cars ... ... as well as block detection
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It is called a flywheel.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still seems to me, the best command control system would sent the control information thru the air directly to the locomotive, Bluetooth or some other radio protocol, but it would eliminate a lot of hardware for those not interested in signaling.
??????????????????????????
While others may have been talking about/supporting dead rail, I was only talking about how the control information gets to the locomotive.
I was talking about track powered direct radio - like RailPro.
https://www.ringengineering.com/#RailPro
Or it could be Bluetooth, but just not sending the communication info thru the track power.
I don't think dead rail is a good choice for small scales.
I'm talking about direct radio command signals with constant voltage track power.
I was talking about a dramtic reduction in under the layout hardware, not the equipment in the locomotive.
BUT, direct radio WITH dead rail is very popular among those in Garden Railroading.
I don't need dead rail, my trains don't suffer from performance issues related to dirty track or other "power pickup" issues.
Full Voltage Pulse Width Modulated speed control works very well in HO, and that is what my Aristo Throttles have.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI was talking about a dramtic reduction in under the layout hardware, not the equipment in the locomotive.
doesn't radio require additional hardware in the loco?
what problem does direct radio (Aristo, RailPro, Bluetooth, WiFi, ...) address?
what underlayout hardware is eliminated by providing constant voltage to the track?
I was a bit surprised to see this thread has totaled 64 posts to date and nearly 5,000 views. I guess there are more people interested in the topic than I ever expected.
My thinking at the moment is some kind of wireless control is both desirable and practical, or at least on the verge of being practical. Maybe cost-competitive with DCC hardware. And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact.
As for dead rail? Great in theory but not all that practical for HO and smaller scales. I see power-only live rail in combination with some form of keep-alive as the more workable setup. Capacitors? Rechargable batteries? Both have their plusses and minuses. The biggest challenge for both is how to fit them on board.
Dedicated power cars may be a good solution for HO dead rail or keep alive. Hey, here is a use for those dummy 'B' units!
With enough keep-alive storage track wiring can be simplified. With rechargable batteries the mainlines can be powered while sidings and such might not be. A real advantage? Probably not. The big advantage of keep-alive is now, and ever shall be, mitigating poor track contact.
I'd still love to know where that crud on the wheels comes from.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL I was talking about a dramtic reduction in under the layout hardware, not the equipment in the locomotive. doesn't radio require additional hardware in the loco? what problem does direct radio (Aristo, RailPro, Bluetooth, WiFi, ...) address? what underlayout hardware is eliminated by providing constant voltage to the track?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I was talking about a dramtic reduction in under the layout hardware, not the equipment in the locomotive.
The power supply, or power supplies on a larger layout now become simple regulated DC rather than $200 command stations and boosters.
The control signal is no longer subject to the wheel/rail electrical connection. i do believe this would improve reliablity around thedirty track issue.
Depending on the details of the track plan, it may be possible to eliminate auto reversers. But, auto reversers may be one thing you would be stuck with.
Just like RailPro, the radio reciever would be built into the decoder, so no not additional hardware in the loco, different hardware.
And for those who insist on mixing control systems, it can work on DCC layouts or DC layouts simply by bringing your throttle with your loco and making thedecoder work on either power source.
No more radio throttle recievers - another expensive DCC part.
It works on the Charles Kettering theory - Parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems - it reduces the number of parts in the command chain.
The Train Engineer system had a dead rail modual near their end for HO. Since it has been so long, someone could reduce the size a lot as their original board was the size of original DCC decoders, kinda big at about an inch wide 1/2 inch tall and something less than 2 inch length.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe control signal is no longer subject to the wheel/rail electrical connection.
if dirty track isn't causing a loco to intermittently stall, i don't believe it's a significant problem affecting control.
i believe a bigger advantage of wireless is 2 way communication which a more sophisticated controller ($$) would take advantage of
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe power supply, or power supplies on a larger layout now become simple regulated DC rather than $200 command stations and boosters.
certainly, but wouldn't the radio devices in the loco be more expensive? after how locos would the break even point $$ be exceeded
would you still want at least one circuit breaker ($$) since a typical wall wart power supply doesn't have current protection?
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust like RailPro, the radio reciever would be built into the decoder, so no not additional hardware in the loco, different hardware.
wouldn't the circuit board need to be larger because it needs radio components in additon to whatever control and motor driver circuitry existing dcc decoders have?
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo more radio throttle recievers - another expensive DCC part.
what type of controller do you imagine? or do you imagine using a bluetooth/WiFi capable smartphone?
4866
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL The control signal is no longer subject to the wheel/rail electrical connection. if dirty track isn't causing a loco to intermittently stall, i don't believe it's a significant problem affecting control. i believe a bigger advantage of wireless is 2 way communication which a more sophisticated controller ($$) would take advantage of ATLANTIC CENTRAL The power supply, or power supplies on a larger layout now become simple regulated DC rather than $200 command stations and boosters. certainly, but wouldn't the radio devices in the loco be more expensive? after how locos would the break even point $$ be exceeded would you still want at least one circuit breaker ($$) since a typical wall wart power supply doesn't have current protection? ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just like RailPro, the radio reciever would be built into the decoder, so no not additional hardware in the loco, different hardware. wouldn't the circuit board need to be larger because it needs radio components in additon to whatever control and motor driver circuitry existing dcc decoders have? ATLANTIC CENTRAL No more radio throttle recievers - another expensive DCC part. what type of controller do you imagine? or do you imagine using a bluetooth/WiFi capable smartphone? 4866
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The control signal is no longer subject to the wheel/rail electrical connection.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The power supply, or power supplies on a larger layout now become simple regulated DC rather than $200 command stations and boosters.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just like RailPro, the radio reciever would be built into the decoder, so no not additional hardware in the loco, different hardware.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No more radio throttle recievers - another expensive DCC part.
I would never use wall warts, the power supplies I use now with my Aristo System have circuit breakers, the Aristo base uint has a fuse. Even at todays prices, the power supplies I use are way cheaper than a DCC Command Station.
The throttle and the decoders would be the only dedicated pieces. Yes the throttle might be pricey - they are now in DCC as far as I am concerned.
No smart phones thank you - you have to look at touch screens to operate them, I want a throttle I can operate without looking at it like I have now. I hate touch screens.
Like everything in electronics, prices would drop as volume goes up. Maybe decoders with radio would be bigger and more expensive - but maybe not all that much.....
What are the four digit numbers at the end of your posts about?
Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail?
I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing.
How does wireless control prevent track to wheel pickup issues? The loco still receives power from the rails with most wireless systems today.
Just Wanna PlayI'd still love to know where that crud on the wheels comes from
A question asked by many over many years. There have been extensive threads on the topic. I think it comes down to simple track oxidation...and ways to avoid it...and the transmission of oils onto the track. Human or locomotive. It could be a matter of one locmotive being offending for a period of time, and then each car picks up some oil that then gets redistributed long after we've corrected the problem with the one loco.
I think the solution to track dirtiness is to go through an entire system reset, so to speak. Clean all track. Clean all wheels on all locos and cars....yes all 200 of them, including the cars you haven't ran for three years....before you operate ever again.
Then don't lubricate anything. And keep your greasy meat mittens off of the equipment.
Then you can narrow it down to keeping up with the oxidation.
JMO.
Doughless Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail? I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing.
my understanding is that that black stuff (not the crud) that accumulates on metal wheels that appears on paper towels used to clean wheels is due to micro-arcing between the wheels and rails.
the micro-arcing is unlikely to cause a noticable power disruption that provents a loco from moving but could corrupt receiving a DCC packet. but DCC speed packets are repeatedly sent and unless there's a change in speed is only likely to result in a delay
4944
gregc Doughless Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail? I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing. my understanding is that that black stuff (not the crud) that accumulates on metal wheels that appears on paper towels used to clean wheels is due to micro-arcing between the wheels and rails. the micro-arcing is unlikely to cause a noticable power disruption that provents a loco from moving but could corrupt receiving a DCC packet. but DCC speed packets are repeatedly sent and unless there's a change in speed is only likely to result in a delay 4944
I'm not following how wireless control, itself, would limit arching. Perhaps it was a short cut for assuming wireless coupled with dead rail.
I think arching is created by track imperfections, like scratches, perhaps poor joints, and also the black crud itself. The existance of some black crud begets more black crud, eventually.
Certainly non powered rails would eliminate these issues.
Something that another has mentioned....battery life. Just anectodally and not specific to trains, but the migration to LED lightbulbs has not created the long-lived light bulbs I thought were advertised. Just basing it upon the amount of time I spend still replacing burned out LED bulbs in my light fixtures.
I think Thomas Edison said long ago, the science can produce a filiment bulb that lasts 20 years, but it would probably cost $5,000.
My point is that manufacturing realities and the need for low cost items influences the longevitity of everything, even the stuff we are told should last a long time. How long would the lithium batteries that manufacurers put in our trains really going to last?
DoughlessI'm not following how wireless control, itself, would limit arching
it doesn't. i said micro-arcing "could corrupt receiving a DCC packet". wireless avoids a communication path where arching occurs.
DoughlessI think Thomas Edison said long ago, the science can produce a filiment bulb that lasts 20 years, but it would probably cost $5,000.
but sometimes a different approach is much cheaper
i imagine that while trying to take advantage of u-processor technology to individually control locomotives, various communication schemes were imagined. i had read about using frequency division multiplexing over the rails around 1980
the developers of DCC recognized that the same technology, H-bridges used to control motors could also be used to control/modulate the polarity of track voltage to send digital information and that it just required an inexpensive bridge rectifier in the decoder to rectify track polarity back to DC
4988
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat are the four digit numbers at the end of your posts about?
Same question here.
Sheldon:
I googled a couple of those numbers. If what I read was correct, I'm kind of thinking that neither of us would be very interested.
Quite a few years ago, while trying to develop an HO track cleaning device, I attached a battery car to power a standard DC locomotive. The rig took no power from the rails. The battery car carried four standard AA Energizer batteries, wired in series to put out 6 volts nominal.
Motivated by some of these discussions today I tried putting that rig onto my layout and turning it on. To my surprise it still ran. Though the batteries were rated to 2021 -- which I believe meant they were made in 2011 -- they were still good.
So I tried a little 'speriment...
I put that rig on my track and let it run on a loop non-stop, checking up on it every so often.
Now the loco wasn't running very fast, on only 6 volts, and it wasn't pulling much of a load, just the battery car, but it did run steady. In fact it ran for about 7 hours before the batteries were exhausted. Maybe it would have run longer with fresh batteries.
While that rig was dragging itself around my layout, like an Energizer Bunny in extremis, I did an online search for rechargable 9 volt batteries. You can buy an Energizer 9-volt Nickel-Metal-Hydride (NiMH) battery for about US$10.
I might do that just to see how much running time I could get out of one. Maybe buy two. Try wiring them in parallel -- 9 volts -- or series -- 18 volts.
It shouldn't be any trouble to hide two 9 volt batteries in a dedicated battery car.
Doughless gregc Doughless Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail? I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing. my understanding is that that black stuff (not the crud) that accumulates on metal wheels that appears on paper towels used to clean wheels is due to micro-arcing between the wheels and rails. the micro-arcing is unlikely to cause a noticable power disruption that provents a loco from moving but could corrupt receiving a DCC packet. but DCC speed packets are repeatedly sent and unless there's a change in speed is only likely to result in a delay 4944 I'm not following how wireless control, itself, would limit arching. Perhaps it was a short cut for assuming wireless coupled with dead rail. I think arching is created by track imperfections, like scratches, perhaps poor joints, and also the black crud itself. The existance of some black crud begets more black crud, eventually. Certainly non powered rails would eliminate these issues. Something that another has mentioned....battery life. Just anectodally and not specific to trains, but the migration to LED lightbulbs has not created the long-lived light bulbs I thought were advertised. Just basing it upon the amount of time I spend still replacing burned out LED bulbs in my light fixtures. I think Thomas Edison said long ago, the science can produce a filiment bulb that lasts 20 years, but it would probably cost $5,000. My point is that manufacturing realities and the need for low cost items influences the longevitity of everything, even the stuff we are told should last a long time. How long would the lithium batteries that manufacurers put in our trains really going to last?
Bet you could build a battery powered train run from quad copters batterys, they are super cheap and small and very light.
Anecdotes:
I have an Apple Watch from 2015 and still use it daily, 14-16 hours a day, which means it gets charged every day. Battery life has degraded, but it's still longer than I need.
Most of the LED bulbs in my house were installed over 7 years ago. There has been exactly one failure. Actually, they're not just in the house. The external bulbs are LED as well, including the post light that's one from sunset to sunrise 365 days a year. In all weather, from below 0F in the winter to over 90F in the summer.
I will state that those bulbs aren't Amazon specials - they're brand name bulbs from local stores.
I was really annoyed when a bulb in the basement storage area died, until I unscrewed it and discovered it was an incandescent.
Ultra long lasting bulbs are available overseas, however reading the specs shows that they're typically much lower light output levels. Think 40-60W equivalent max. So bulking up the electronics and reducing the power leads to much less heat and longer life, at the cost of needing many more bulbs.
rrebell Bet you could build a battery powered train run from quad copters batterys, they are super cheap and small and very light.
That's an interesting idea. But it brings up a question. What voltage would be suitable for train operation? A quick check online turns up such batteries at 3.7 volts, 7.4 volts, 9.6 volts, 11.1 volts and 14.8 volts.
I'm pretty sure 3.7 volts isn't enough. I'd think 14.8 volts would be servicable. The intermediate voltages? Can't say just now.
Drone/copter batteries are designed for high output for a short period of time. Model railroad operation is the opposite, low output for long periods. Not to say that makes drone/copter batteries unsuitable.
Again, something worth exploring.
Bachmann did not want to develop EZ-App any further than the initial release, so BlueRail partnered with SoundTraxx to make Blunami. You might want to consider using Blunami.
Just Wanna Play rrebell Bet you could build a battery powered train run from quad copters batterys, they are super cheap and small and very light. That's an interesting idea. But it brings up a question. What voltage would be suitable for train operation? A quick check online turns up such batteries at 3.7 volts, 7.4 volts, 9.6 volts, 11.1 volts and 14.8 volts. I'm pretty sure 3.7 volts isn't enough. I'd think 14.8 volts would be servicable. The intermediate voltages? Can't say just now. Drone/copter batteries are designed for high output for a short period of time. Model railroad operation is the opposite, low output for long periods. Not to say that makes drone/copter batteries unsuitable. Again, something worth exploring.
So I tried it...
I installed a fresh Energizer 9-volt battery in that test rig I had. Not surprisingly the loco ran faster, but still at a modest pace.
I let the thing run and tried to time how long it ran before the battery up and quit. I didn't get to see when it stopped, but it did run something more than 2 hours but less than 3.
I am thinking about buying a couple rechagable 9-volt Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. From what I read they are less tempermental than Nickel-Cadmium or Lithium-Ion about how they get recharged.
I'm homing in on a system with rechargable on-board batteries providing backup power, live rails pretty much everywhere providing primary power, and wireless control, either Bluetooth or RC.
Just Wanna Play So I tried it... I installed a fresh Energizer 9-volt battery in that test rig I had. Not surprisingly the loco ran faster, but still at a modest pace. I let the thing run and tried to time how long it ran before the battery up and quit. I didn't get to see when it stopped, but it did run something more than 2 hours but less than 3. I am thinking about buying a couple rechagable 9-volt Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. From what I read they are less tempermental than Nickel-Cadmium or Lithium-Ion about how they get recharged. I'm homing in on a system with rechargable on-board batteries providing backup power, live rails pretty much everywhere providing primary power, and wireless control, either Bluetooth or RC.
rrebellonly located at coaling or fueling stations on the layout.
wouldn't it take much longer to charge batteries in between sessions than a short stop under a coaling station?
i had thought there would be dedicated tracks for charging, perhaps around a turntable. those tracks would be powered by charging circuits that would avoid over-charging. there could be a fascia panel switch to turn the charging circuit on but also needs some indicator that there is a connection between the wheels and rail and current is flowing.
rrebellA micro switch on the loco could open and close the circuit to the wheels if that proved to be a proublem or could use a charging point though a stack or top vent on the the loco, pull it out plug would be there.
i hadn't thought about a switch on the loco which i think is needed otherwise it would power the rails and be susceptible to shorts which would be catastrophic without some limiting circuit.
A couple of days ago I received a pair of Energizer 9-Volt Nickel Metal Hydride batteries. I wired them up in series and used them to run an HO locomotive around my track. Battery only power. No track power.
In theory I was operating on 18 volts, and the loco ran just fine. Fast, but okay. I would have tried to see how long it would run on the batteries, but my battery car would fall over every so often. I'll have to fix that.
I measured the output voltage of my batteries, and that turned out to be 17.5 volts. I like that. If I provide 18 volts to the track that should keep the batteries topped up, hopefully without over-charging them.
Next job is to set up an actual train, using a loco with Bluetooth control and a better battery car.
To be continued...
Just Wanna Play I measured the output voltage of my batteries, and that turned out to be 17.5 volts. I like that. If I provide 18 volts to the track that should keep the batteries topped up, hopefully without over-charging them.
Is that an open terminal measurement or the actual voltage when connected to the motor and under load?
Open terminal.
Onder if you cound run cell phone batterys in series, then the standard c port would work for charging, why reinvent the wheel. The smallest I found was 1/2"x1/2" and not very thick.