Live Frogs or Dead Frogs?

[Anonymous]

A specific problem you will encounter with insulfrog turnouts is that certain locomotives with wide tread wheels may cause a momentary short circuit when crossing insulfrog (Bachmann 44-ton, rolling stock and locomotives with wide metal truck side frames).  The short occurs at the point where the non-stock rails join the plastic frog.  The only solutions I have found are to paint the frog and non-stock rails or to cut gaps and isolate the insulfrog and power the rails in the same manner as the electrofrog turnout. I also CA styrene into the gaps to prevent them from ever closing.   

[dante]

tomikawaTT

 

Howdy, Rich,

How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?)  Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T?  In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Chuck,

You can add a Tomar pickup (or equal) to the Dockside frame as far to the rear as you can. Depending on your frog size, that might do it.

Dante

[richhotrain]

dante

 

 

tomikawaTT

 

Howdy, Rich,

How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?)  Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T?  In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

 

 

Chuck,

You can add a Tomar pickup (or equal) to the Dockside frame as far to the rear as you can. Depending on your frog size, that might do it.

Dante

 

Dante, that question from Chuck was tongue in cheek in response to my comment that a dead frog is no problem as long as both trucks are powered.

Rich

[trainnut1250]

Bernard,

I would recommend live frogs/electrofrog turnouts.  Depending on how much weathering and other indignities your track will suffer, I always err on the side of maximum electrical robustness and contact. 

Can you get by with unpowered??  Sure in most cases.  In the beginning everything will work perfectly and you will wonder why guys like me are saying to do that extra work,  but…..As the layout ages and after you ballast and paint, contact becomes more critical and you just might be glad you have powered frogs. 

Take some time to thoroughly understand turnout power flow and wiring.  It isn’t that difficult, especially if you take a meter to turnout and do some exploration.  Also: Keep in mind that there are now several versions of electrofrogs out there as Peco has updated the design over the years.  The current version is super easy to wire and has all the work pretty much done for you.

Check these links for turnout wiring explanations:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/kb_results.asp?ID=62

http://www.proto87.com/page124.html

I don’t recommend Gartner’s wiring for DCC site in the beginning as it can be pretty over the top and I don’t agree with some of his recommendations.  The whole “DCC friendly” turnout wiring scheme can be summed up as traditional bullet proof turnout wiring that goes back way before DCC came along.  Learn those basics and the rest will fall into place.

Opinions will vary,

Guy

[trafficdesign]

trainnut1250

I would recommend live frogs/electrofrog turnouts.  Depending on how much weathering and other indignities your track will suffer, I always err on the side of maximum electrical robustness and contact. 

Thanks Guy. That's about where I ended up. I am going to go with Peco Code83 Electrofrog's and will probably throw the switch with Caboose Industry ground throws and power the frog using the Tam Valley Frog Juicer.

trainnut1250

Check these links for turnout wiring explanations:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/kb_results.asp?ID=62

http://www.proto87.com/page124.html

Wow! Hadn't seen these before...that makes it easier to visualize. Thanks!

[carl425]

zstripe

Here's a live Frog:

 

Frank

 

Sorry Frank, but that's an insulated frog.  The wood he is sitting on is an insulator, not a conductor.

[richhotrain]

trafficdesign

I am going to go with Peco Code83 Electrofrog's and will probably throw the switch with Caboose Industry ground throws and power the frog using the Tam Valley Frog Juicer.

 

 

You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered.

Rich

[trafficdesign]

richhotrain

You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered.

Are you sure, Rich? I am using this http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html as a reference site. Please see Step 4.

Bernard

 

[zstripe]

carl425

 

 

zstripe

Here's a live Frog:

 

Frank

 

 

 

 

Sorry Frank, but that's an insulated frog.  The wood he is sitting on is an insulator, not a conductor.

 

If He's breathing....He's live. 

Take Care!

Frank

[richhotrain]

trafficdesign

 

 

richhotrain

You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered.

 

 

 

Are you sure, Rich? I am using this http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html as a reference site. Please see Step 4.

Bernard

 

 

Well, sure, if you cut the wire bonds so that the frog is no longer powered from the point rails, the live frog becomes a dead frog.  But, out of the box, the frog is powered.

On the one hand, there is every reason to cut gaps on the two inner rails to prevent shorts due to mismatched polarity.   But, by doing that, shorts are prevented while keeping the frog powered.

On the other hand, cutting the jumpers that power the frog as part of power routing will surely deaden the frog.  That seems extreme to me on the assumption that wheels might bridge a gap and cause a momentary short.  Not to mention expensive once you add the cost of the frog juicer to the cost of the Electrofrog.

At that point, why even bother with Electrofrogs?

What am I missing?

Rich

[trafficdesign]

richhotrain

At that point, why even bother with Electrofrogs?

richhotrain

Good question! I'd be interested in the Forum's answers. My guess is that with Electrofrogs and (externally) powered frogs you have more control and dependability. But I am guessing....

 

trafficdesign

 

 

richhotrain

You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered.

 

 

 

Are you sure, Rich? I am using this http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html as a reference site. Please see Step 4.

Bernard

 

 

 

 

 

Well, sure, if you cut the wire bonds so that the frog is no longer powered from the point rails, the live frog becomes a dead frog.  But, out of the box, the frog is powered.

 

On the one hand, there is every reason to cut gaps on the two inner rails to prevent shorts due to mismatched polarity.   But, by doing that, shorts are prevented while keeping the frog powered.

On the other hand, cutting the jumpers that power the frog as part of power routing will surely deaden the frog.  That seems extreme to me on the assumption that wheels might bridge a gap and cause a momentary short.  Not to mention expensive once you add the cost of the frog juicer to the cost of the Electrofrog.

At that point, why even bother with Electrofrogs?

What am I missing?

Rich

 

[richhotrain]

So, fellow forum members, the question is:  do you really need to modify a Peco Electrofrog by cutting the jumpers that power the frog and adding a Frog Juicer to re-power the frog?

Rich

[trainnut1250]

Rich the answer to your question, is at least in my case, yes, minus the expensive, but convenient frog juicer. 

By cutting the frog jumpers it allows the closure rails and points to be jumpered to their respective stock rails. They are now always hot and always the correct polarity.  No more reliance on the metal tabs or direct point rail contact to power the points and frog.  This makes the turnout more reliable electrically.

 The beauty of the current Peco design is that the stock rail to closure rail jumpers are easy – there is a spot with no ties that you can solder them in underneath the turnout, the frog is already gapped and they have soldered a wire to the frog for you – very nice.  My only complaint with these turnouts is the big ties and the stamped points.

The frog polarity can be switched using much cheaper methods than the frog juicer.  I use my DPDT panel switch to do this.  Two wires to the turnout – one for stall motor power (Bipolar supply to common ground) and one for frog polarity. This option works better with an isolated frog. Simple, cheap and very reliable.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Guy

[richhotrain]

Geez, maybe Peco needs a third variation, the Juicer Frog.   

Rich

[dante]

richhotrain

 

 

dante

 

 

tomikawaTT

 

Howdy, Rich,

How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?)  Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T?  In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

 

 

Chuck,

You can add a Tomar pickup (or equal) to the Dockside frame as far to the rear as you can. Depending on your frog size, that might do it.

Dante

 

 

 

 

Dante, that question from Chuck was tongue in cheek in response to my comment that a dead frog is no problem as long as both trucks are powered.

 

Rich

 

Maybe so, Rich, but understood literally, that is an actual problem solvable as I stated (for the Docksider, not the elusive Hohenzollern)! I did it with my Docksider and my son did it with his old Mantua 0-4-0. 

Dante

[Anonymous]

trainnut1250

By cutting the frog jumpers it allows the closure rails and points to be jumpered to their respective stock rails. They are now always hot and always the correct polarity. No more reliance on the metal tabs or direct point rail contact to power the points and frog. This makes the turnout more reliable electrically. The beauty of the current Peco design is that the stock rail to closure rail jumpers are easy – there is a spot with no ties that you can solder them in underneath the turnout, the frog is already gapped and they have soldered a wire to the frog for you – very nice.

This is my model railroad club's standard practice with electrofrog turnouts.  Never rely on the points to provide electrical continuity.  We power our frogs from Tortoise machines.  Note: If you do use tortoise machines you may find that you have a momemtary short when the turnout is thrown.  This is remedied by removing the spring that holds the turnout against the stock rails, as it is no longer required (Tortoise machine does the spring part for you).  This spring is located in one of the ties near the tips of the points removable by bending 2 metal tabs (new style turnout), or on top of them under a centered plastic detail piece that is removable by bending 2 metal tabs (older style). 

You can also use the Caboose industries ground throw with the electrical contacts (119R and 220S)

[trainnut1250]

BMMECNYC

 

 We power our frogs from Tortoise machines.  Note: If you do use tortoise machines you may find that you have a momemtary short when the turnout is thrown.  This is remedied by removing the spring that holds the turnout against the stock rails, as it is no longer required (Tortoise machine does the spring part for you).  This spring is located in one of the ties near the tips of the points removable by bending 2 metal tabs (new style turnout), or on top of them under a centered plastic detail piece that is removable by bending 2 metal tabs (older style). 

 

 

There are a couple of differences your approach compared to what I described above.  Sounds like you guys are doing a modified power routing scheme by leaving the points and closure rails as one circuit powered from the frog.

 

The momentary short is caused by the points not moving quickly enough before the polarity is switched at the frog.  The frog polarity is switched before the points move and lose contact with the stock rail (opposite polarity) causing a short. This is a common problem with this approach.  Sounds like you have come up with a solution that allows the points to move quickly enough to avoid the short.

 

Another way to avoid this short is to isolate the frog (gapping both sides). You then have to jumper the closure rails/points to their respective stock rails to keep continuous power to those parts of the turnout.  The gaps allow the polarity of the frog to change independently of the points/closure rails (i.e. it doesn’t matter how quick the points move). This is easy to do on the bench, harder as a retrofit.  

There are lots of ways to wire switches…

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Guy

 

[rrinker]

 Do you NEED to modify the Electroforg? Not necessarily, but they will be more bulletproof if you do. You don;t need a frog juicer, contacts on a switch machine work just fine. A Frog Juicer is perhaps a bit more convenient, since you don;t have to worry about the Rail A/Rail B connections, the Juicer just automatically sets the frog wire to the correct polarity. But like any convenience, there's a price attached.

 And a Frog Juicer is more like the method I don't like - it waits until there is a short then fixes it. My preference, like with reverse loops, is avoid the short in the first place by using switch motor contacts or similar.

                           --Randy