Do you NEED to modify the Electroforg? Not necessarily, but they will be more bulletproof if you do. You don;t need a frog juicer, contacts on a switch machine work just fine. A Frog Juicer is perhaps a bit more convenient, since you don;t have to worry about the Rail A/Rail B connections, the Juicer just automatically sets the frog wire to the correct polarity. But like any convenience, there's a price attached.
And a Frog Juicer is more like the method I don't like - it waits until there is a short then fixes it. My preference, like with reverse loops, is avoid the short in the first place by using switch motor contacts or similar.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BMMECNYC We power our frogs from Tortoise machines. Note: If you do use tortoise machines you may find that you have a momemtary short when the turnout is thrown. This is remedied by removing the spring that holds the turnout against the stock rails, as it is no longer required (Tortoise machine does the spring part for you). This spring is located in one of the ties near the tips of the points removable by bending 2 metal tabs (new style turnout), or on top of them under a centered plastic detail piece that is removable by bending 2 metal tabs (older style).
We power our frogs from Tortoise machines. Note: If you do use tortoise machines you may find that you have a momemtary short when the turnout is thrown. This is remedied by removing the spring that holds the turnout against the stock rails, as it is no longer required (Tortoise machine does the spring part for you). This spring is located in one of the ties near the tips of the points removable by bending 2 metal tabs (new style turnout), or on top of them under a centered plastic detail piece that is removable by bending 2 metal tabs (older style).
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250By cutting the frog jumpers it allows the closure rails and points to be jumpered to their respective stock rails. They are now always hot and always the correct polarity. No more reliance on the metal tabs or direct point rail contact to power the points and frog. This makes the turnout more reliable electrically. The beauty of the current Peco design is that the stock rail to closure rail jumpers are easy – there is a spot with no ties that you can solder them in underneath the turnout, the frog is already gapped and they have soldered a wire to the frog for you – very nice.
This is my model railroad club's standard practice with electrofrog turnouts. Never rely on the points to provide electrical continuity. We power our frogs from Tortoise machines. Note: If you do use tortoise machines you may find that you have a momemtary short when the turnout is thrown. This is remedied by removing the spring that holds the turnout against the stock rails, as it is no longer required (Tortoise machine does the spring part for you). This spring is located in one of the ties near the tips of the points removable by bending 2 metal tabs (new style turnout), or on top of them under a centered plastic detail piece that is removable by bending 2 metal tabs (older style).
You can also use the Caboose industries ground throw with the electrical contacts (119R and 220S)
richhotrain dante tomikawaTT Howdy, Rich, How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?) Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T? In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog... Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964) Chuck, You can add a Tomar pickup (or equal) to the Dockside frame as far to the rear as you can. Depending on your frog size, that might do it. Dante Dante, that question from Chuck was tongue in cheek in response to my comment that a dead frog is no problem as long as both trucks are powered. Rich
dante tomikawaTT Howdy, Rich, How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?) Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T? In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog... Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964) Chuck, You can add a Tomar pickup (or equal) to the Dockside frame as far to the rear as you can. Depending on your frog size, that might do it. Dante
tomikawaTT Howdy, Rich, How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?) Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T? In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog... Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?) Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T? In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chuck,
You can add a Tomar pickup (or equal) to the Dockside frame as far to the rear as you can. Depending on your frog size, that might do it.
Dante
Dante, that question from Chuck was tongue in cheek in response to my comment that a dead frog is no problem as long as both trucks are powered.
Rich
Maybe so, Rich, but understood literally, that is an actual problem solvable as I stated (for the Docksider, not the elusive Hohenzollern)! I did it with my Docksider and my son did it with his old Mantua 0-4-0.
Geez, maybe Peco needs a third variation, the Juicer Frog.
Alton Junction
So, fellow forum members, the question is: do you really need to modify a Peco Electrofrog by cutting the jumpers that power the frog and adding a Frog Juicer to re-power the frog?
richhotrain At that point, why even bother with Electrofrogs?
At that point, why even bother with Electrofrogs?
richhotrain Good question! I'd be interested in the Forum's answers. My guess is that with Electrofrogs and (externally) powered frogs you have more control and dependability. But I am guessing.... trafficdesign richhotrain You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered. Are you sure, Rich? I am using this http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html as a reference site. Please see Step 4. Bernard Well, sure, if you cut the wire bonds so that the frog is no longer powered from the point rails, the live frog becomes a dead frog. But, out of the box, the frog is powered. On the one hand, there is every reason to cut gaps on the two inner rails to prevent shorts due to mismatched polarity. But, by doing that, shorts are prevented while keeping the frog powered. On the other hand, cutting the jumpers that power the frog as part of power routing will surely deaden the frog. That seems extreme to me on the assumption that wheels might bridge a gap and cause a momentary short. Not to mention expensive once you add the cost of the frog juicer to the cost of the Electrofrog. At that point, why even bother with Electrofrogs? What am I missing? Rich
Good question! I'd be interested in the Forum's answers. My guess is that with Electrofrogs and (externally) powered frogs you have more control and dependability. But I am guessing....
trafficdesign richhotrain You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered. Are you sure, Rich? I am using this http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html as a reference site. Please see Step 4. Bernard
richhotrain You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered.
You won't need the Frog Juicer with the Electrofrog as the frog is already powered.
Are you sure, Rich? I am using this http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html as a reference site. Please see Step 4.
Bernard
Well, sure, if you cut the wire bonds so that the frog is no longer powered from the point rails, the live frog becomes a dead frog. But, out of the box, the frog is powered.
On the one hand, there is every reason to cut gaps on the two inner rails to prevent shorts due to mismatched polarity. But, by doing that, shorts are prevented while keeping the frog powered.
On the other hand, cutting the jumpers that power the frog as part of power routing will surely deaden the frog. That seems extreme to me on the assumption that wheels might bridge a gap and cause a momentary short. Not to mention expensive once you add the cost of the frog juicer to the cost of the Electrofrog.
What am I missing?
carl425 zstripe Here's a live Frog: Frank Sorry Frank, but that's an insulated frog. The wood he is sitting on is an insulator, not a conductor.
zstripe Here's a live Frog: Frank
Here's a live Frog:
Frank
Sorry Frank, but that's an insulated frog. The wood he is sitting on is an insulator, not a conductor.
If He's breathing....He's live.
Take Care!
trafficdesign I am going to go with Peco Code83 Electrofrog's and will probably throw the switch with Caboose Industry ground throws and power the frog using the Tam Valley Frog Juicer.
I am going to go with Peco Code83 Electrofrog's and will probably throw the switch with Caboose Industry ground throws and power the frog using the Tam Valley Frog Juicer.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
trainnut1250 I would recommend live frogs/electrofrog turnouts. Depending on how much weathering and other indignities your track will suffer, I always err on the side of maximum electrical robustness and contact.
trainnut1250 Check these links for turnout wiring explanations: http://www.handlaidtrack.com/kb_results.asp?ID=62 http://www.proto87.com/page124.html
Wow! Hadn't seen these before...that makes it easier to visualize. Thanks!
A specific problem you will encounter with insulfrog turnouts is that certain locomotives with wide tread wheels may cause a momentary short circuit when crossing insulfrog (Bachmann 44-ton, rolling stock and locomotives with wide metal truck side frames). The short occurs at the point where the non-stock rails join the plastic frog. The only solutions I have found are to paint the frog and non-stock rails or to cut gaps and isolate the insulfrog and power the rails in the same manner as the electrofrog turnout. I also CA styrene into the gaps to prevent them from ever closing.
Whatever color wire you use, you really should try to keep it consistent so you have some clue when you go back to add some new stuff a few years from now.
Green for frogs, because frogs are green (Tony the K).
It does make sense to use a different color for the frog wire than for the two rails - because depending on which way the points are lined, the frog can take on either polarity.
MisterBeasleyI always use green wires for frogs, because color-coding your wires makes it easier to understand your wiring years later, and what better color than green?
Oh No! Wire Colors.
Well ok, according to building codes Black is hot, White is Neutral and Green is GROUND.
But on your computer, Black is Ground. Telephony uses a different color schema.
On your battery Black is Negative and Red is Positive (or at least I think I am positive about that.)
On railroad of LION the GROUND BUS is bare. But then so is the (+16v) Signal Bus; the 600 Volt Third Rail (+10v) and the 750 Volt Third rail (+12v). Ok, so they are all neatly labled and besides from top to bottom they are GROUND, SIGNAL, 600 Volt, and 750 Volt.
The color of the wires are 100% random. I purchase scrap wires, beg, borrow, or otherwise acquire scrap wires, and pull wires out of dead computers. The come in all different colors. I might as well be color blind as far as what color a particular wire is. (Many of my main cables are 66 conductor cables with all white insulation on them, since they were built before rubber or plastic coatings were invented. They were all inuslated with white strings dipped in wax: Connest one end, and test the other end until you found a match and then wire it together.
When assembling signals I use colors that are close to Green Yellow and Red. (Plus something else for ground.) But maybe I run out of those colors maybe I will use Blue for green, gray for yellow, and brown for red. But the wires I use comes in pairs so the Green Sighanl might be a Green-Yellow conductor, while the Yellow signal might be a Yellow-Green Conductor. I might use a Red-Black conductor for the red signal and a Black-Red conductor for the common. Since I make and install my signals one at a time, I do not need to remember the protocol used for very long, or if I have forgotten, I can test them, but be sure to use a resistor so that you do not blow the LEDS by mistyque.
LION uses nails as binding posts for these cables, now picture the fun I had troubleshooting a cable where two of the nails were touching inside of the wood. A ROARING good time was had by all. Another fun trick is to extend a wire to make it longer. Suppose I have a white wire connected to this post over here and want to connect it to that post over there, but it is not long enough. Well, no problem, we will just solder this blue wire on to it and make it longer. We put a shirk wrap over the solder joint just to keep things kopesthetic.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
big daydreamer A nice resource for wiring a Peco Electrofrog: http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html
A nice resource for wiring a Peco Electrofrog:
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-modifications.html
I think that web site is the best one out there for visualizing the operation of the Peco Insulfrog and the Peco Electrofrog.
tomikawaTT richhotrain I don't use #8 turnouts. I only use #6 turnouts. None of my turnouts (Atlas Custom Line and Peco Insulfrog) have live frogs. I have never had a problem with dead frogs, and my loco roster consists of steamers, diesels and switchers. As long as both trucks are powered, there should be no stalls. Rich Howdy, Rich, How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?) Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T? In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog... Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
richhotrain I don't use #8 turnouts. I only use #6 turnouts. None of my turnouts (Atlas Custom Line and Peco Insulfrog) have live frogs. I have never had a problem with dead frogs, and my loco roster consists of steamers, diesels and switchers. As long as both trucks are powered, there should be no stalls. Rich
I don't use #8 turnouts. I only use #6 turnouts. None of my turnouts (Atlas Custom Line and Peco Insulfrog) have live frogs. I have never had a problem with dead frogs, and my loco roster consists of steamers, diesels and switchers. As long as both trucks are powered, there should be no stalls.
Howdy, Rich,
I just don't have anything like that on my layout. My shortest diesel is an S1 switcher and it has two trucks. All of my steamers have power in the drivers and power pickups in the tenders.
Quote:
''The circuit is dead simple - one wire from each stock rail to one fixed contact, and one wire to the moveable contact that can touch either, but not both at the same time. My manual point movers are electrical SPDT switches, while my Rix and KTM 2-coil machines have dedicated contacts. I understand that Tortoise machines also have contacts, but have yet to use one.''
Ye' old fashion way.
I have just installed Peco Electrofrog switches on my layout and I am sorry to say, I am not really happy with them. Those little contacts on the closure rails keep making trouble, which is difficult to remedy, as I have already applied ballast.
In general, "live" frogs will help you to get a smooth performance, even with short wheelbased locos. To get rid of that contact issue, just install a Tams Valley FrogJuicer, providing you are into DCC.
My turnouts are 100% live frog types, for a very simple reason. I hand-lay them using raw rail soldered together. Building a dead frog is a thundering PITA!
Since I run MU cars with one short wheelbase truck picking up from each rail, short wheelbase teakettle tanks and other such abbreviated rail contact vehicles, dead frogs are a non-starter. Also, EVERYTHING that moves my points has a set of electrical contacts to assure proper frog power.
The circuit is dead simple - one wire from each stock rail to one fixed contact, and one wire to the moveable contact that can touch either, but not both at the same time. My manual point movers are electrical SPDT switches, while my Rix and KTM 2-coil machines have dedicated contacts. I understand that Tortoise machines also have contacts, but have yet to use one.