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Live Frogs or Dead Frogs?

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Live Frogs or Dead Frogs?
Posted by trafficdesign on Thursday, June 5, 2014 10:11 PM

With apologies to the Amphibians out there...

I am trying to decide whether to use #6 and #8 Peco Code 83 Insulfrog or Electrofrog turnouts on my HO layout. My initial idea was to go with Insulfrogs as the whole electrical thing boggles my mind and it seemed 'easier'.

However, I seem to be reading a lot about the need to juice the frog for reliable operation????

My roster will be 'modern' diesels (mainly SD40s, GP35s, GP40-2s, SD60s and ES44ACs) with some SW1500s. Although a small Trackmobile would be nice for switching.

I was planning on using Caboose Industries manual ground throws and wasn't initially planning on switch machines (mainly due to my lack of electrical ability).

So I guess the big question here is can I 'get away' with dead frogs (Insulfrogs) or is the prevailing wisdom to juice the frog (Electrofrogs)?

Any thoughts appreciated!

Bernard

 

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Posted by tomcat on Thursday, June 5, 2014 11:43 PM

Hi Bernard

My feeling is that if you are going to run those types of Locos then you would be ok with insulfrogs as they wont have problems picking up power with those truck configuration going over the frogs..If you run smaller switchers like 0-6-0 over them then you may get stalling issues then a juicer might be needed

With your manual ground throws... go for it if you can reach them all .

Is this a DCC layout ?

 

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, June 6, 2014 1:02 AM

Bernard:

From what I have read over several years on the forum your main roster will run just fine over the insulfrog turnouts. However, your Trackmobile might not be so happy.

My suggestion would be to figure out exactly where the Trackmobile will be likely to run and use powered frogs on those routes, but save yourself some effort and use insulfrogs on the rest of the layout.

Personally I am into "critters" and other assorted 4 or 6 wheeled power so I will install powered frogs on all turnouts (no layout yet) so I can play with my toys wherever I like.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, June 6, 2014 2:10 AM

Bernard,

Dave's solution for the Trackmobile is a good one. But be sure you won't put anything else similar elsewhaere. The live frogs are just so much better for any light-footed short wheelbase model. You'll be kicking yourself if yhou don't go with them where they're needed.

Where it's only the lashups of big diesels, no problem, they'll plow right through.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, June 6, 2014 5:50 AM

Most locos can negotiate #6 turnouts with dead frogs, but #8 turnouts can be more problematic because of the size of the frog.

You can always power a dead frog with a frog juicer.

So, typically, Insulfrogs are the way to go.

But, if you want or need live frogs, don't let Electrofrog turnouts scare you.  Just add gaps or insulated rail joiners on the two inside rails of the turnout beyond the frog.  

Insulfrog and Electrofrog are both power routing so take that into account as well when adding feeders.

Rich

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Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, June 6, 2014 5:57 AM

I'm a fan of Electrofrog turnouts.

richhotrain
But, if you want or need live frogs, don't let Electrofrog turnouts scare you.  Just add gaps or insulated rail joiners on the two inside rails of the turnout beyond the frog.

Darn, agreeing with Rich again!!!

Cheers, the Bear.

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, June 6, 2014 6:33 AM

In your life as a model railroader, you will eventually have to deal with wiring far more complicated than powering frogs.  And, one thing you'll discover is that it's a lot easier to wire anything while it's still on your bench, before you put it on the layout and make access much more difficult.

Wire the frog.  You will not regret it.  If nothing else, at least connect a wire to the frog and let it dangle below your layout.  (I always use green wires for frogs, because color-coding your wires makes it easier to understand your wiring years later, and what better color than green?)  Caboose makes a ground throw with contacts.  Buy those, and once again run the wires and let them hang below the layout.  Then, when you have the first signs of frog trouble, you can simply connect the wires and ask yourself "Why didn't I do that in the first place?  That was simple."

I have some Peco Code 100 turnouts.  As I recall, they have plastic frogs.  These are short turnouts, about #4 and they're a pretty close match for Atlas snap-switches in that regard.  Do the longer ones have metal frogs?

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Posted by zstripe on Friday, June 6, 2014 6:49 AM

I agree with Mr.B on this one. put the wire in, whether you need it or not.

Once you understand the wiring principle's. In fact power routing turnouts, the points can be used to power the frogs. That's the old fashion way used year's ago, DC/DCC.

Frank

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Posted by trafficdesign on Friday, June 6, 2014 6:57 AM

richhotrain

Most locos can negotiate #6 turnouts with dead frogs, but #8 turnouts can be more problematic because of the size of the frog.

Thanks Rich... so if I want to go with #8s on the mainline... does that mean I should be thinking about Electrofrogs (powered turnouts)?

Thanks also to all who have responded thus far. It still seems like a 50/50 split between Insulfrog and Electrofrog recommendations.

P.S. To answer an earlier question, this layout will be DCC.

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Posted by selector on Friday, June 6, 2014 8:06 AM

I ran a SW8 Walthers switcher and one of the P2K 0-6-0 switchers over all my insulfrog Pecos on my previous layout.  They never lost a beat.  However, the SW8 would stall at every turnout until I swapped out one of its axles, the one with the traction tire set, with an all-metal tire set provided to me free from Walthers as sson as I contacted them and complained about the locmotive's performance.  That good will evaporated within the year, and they no longer ship replacement metal tire sets to customers.  However, as soon as all four axles had metal tires and wipers, my provlems vanished.  I would guess that, if your smallest locos have no traction tires, they'll do just fine on the insulfrogs.  The only problem would be the smallest one you mention, but I really have no experience with them.

None of my frogs has a dangling wire.

-Crandell

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Posted by big daydreamer on Friday, June 6, 2014 9:10 AM

trafficdesign

 

 
richhotrain

Most locos can negotiate #6 turnouts with dead frogs, but #8 turnouts can be more problematic because of the size of the frog.

 

 

Thanks Rich... so if I want to go with #8s on the mainline... does that mean I should be thinking about Electrofrogs (powered turnouts)?

Thanks also to all who have responded thus far. It still seems like a 50/50 split between Insulfrog and Electrofrog recommendations.

P.S. To answer an earlier question, this layout will be DCC.

 

Basically, yes.  Since the #8 Insulfrog turnout will have a larger frog there will be a bigger "dead spot" in the track.

Also, (regarding terminology) don't use "powered turnouts" as if it were synonomous with "powered frog".  A "powered turnout" can mean that a turnout is controlled by an electronic switch machine. (and I don't think that's what you are asking!)

Tags: turnout , frog , powered
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Posted by trafficdesign on Friday, June 6, 2014 4:25 PM

big daydreamer

Also, (regarding terminology) don't use "powered turnouts" as if it were synonomous with "powered frog".  A "powered turnout" can mean that a turnout is controlled by an electronic switch machine. (and I don't think that's what you are asking!)

You are correct and thanks for the clarification. It's the frogs I meant to be powered!

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Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, June 6, 2014 5:33 PM

Hope this may help....

Cheers, the Bear.

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Friday, June 6, 2014 6:38 PM

On our club layout, we have a lot of Atlas #8 turnouts with unpwered frogs and we have no problems with stalling with any 4 or 6 axle diesels (as long as they have all-wheel pick ups) and modern steamers.

Jay 

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, June 6, 2014 7:09 PM

trafficdesign

 

 
richhotrain

Most locos can negotiate #6 turnouts with dead frogs, but #8 turnouts can be more problematic because of the size of the frog.

 

 

Thanks Rich... so if I want to go with #8s on the mainline... does that mean I should be thinking about Electrofrogs (powered turnouts)?

Thanks also to all who have responded thus far. It still seems like a 50/50 split between Insulfrog and Electrofrog recommendations.

P.S. To answer an earlier question, this layout will be DCC.

 

It really comes down to a choice between a powered frog (Electrofrog) and a dead (Insulfrog) but isolated frog.  Which is more important to you?  

Jay makes a good point that as long as both trucks on a loco are powered, a dead frog should pose no problem.

On the other hand, adding gaps (or insulated rail joiners) to an Electrofrog turnout is no big deal.  You simply gap the inner two rails beyond the frog, as shown in Ja Bear's diagram.

One compromise is to use the Insulfrogs and if the dead frog causes a loco to stall, then you could add a frog juicer or simply hot wire the frog.

In any event, recall that both the Insulfrog and the Electrofrog are power routing turnouts.  Since you are operating in DCC, you will want to add feeder wires to all three ends of every Peco turnout.

Rich

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Posted by jalajoie on Friday, June 6, 2014 9:20 PM

richhotrain

One compromise is to use the Insulfrogs and if the dead frog causes a loco to stall, then you could add a frog juicer or simply hot wire the frog.

Rich 

Rich lets not forget the OP is talking about Peco turnouts therefore the insulfrog are made out of plastic. There is no way to power them.

Jack W.

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Posted by trafficdesign on Friday, June 6, 2014 10:23 PM

richhotrain

On the other hand, adding gaps (or insulated rail joiners) to an Electrofrog turnout is no big deal.  You simply gap the inner two rails beyond the frog, as shown in Ja Bear's diagram.Rich

So is it possible to use Electrofrog turnouts and add insulated rain joiners and feeder wires where needed and just not power the frog. Or MUST the frog be powered?

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, June 6, 2014 10:26 PM

trafficdesign

 

 
richhotrain

On the other hand, adding gaps (or insulated rail joiners) to an Electrofrog turnout is no big deal.  You simply gap the inner two rails beyond the frog, as shown in Ja Bear's diagram.Rich

 

 

So is it possible to use Electrofrog turnouts and add insulated rain joiners and feeder wires where needed and just not power the frog. Or MUST the frog be powered?

 

The frog is powered on an Electrofrog.  It is part of the design.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, June 6, 2014 10:27 PM

jalajoie

 

 
richhotrain

One compromise is to use the Insulfrogs and if the dead frog causes a loco to stall, then you could add a frog juicer or simply hot wire the frog.

Rich 

 

 

Rich lets not forget the OP is talking about Peco turnouts therefore the insulfrog are made out of plastic. There is no way to power them.

 

Jack, good catch.  I misspoke on that one.  You are correct.  The frog is plastic on a Peco Insulfrog.  I went back and struck that comment.

Rich

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Friday, June 6, 2014 11:50 PM

My turnouts are 100% live frog types, for a very simple reason.  I hand-lay them using raw rail soldered together.  Building a dead frog is a thundering PITA!

Since I run MU cars with one short wheelbase truck picking up from each rail, short wheelbase teakettle tanks and other such abbreviated rail contact vehicles, dead frogs are a non-starter.  Also, EVERYTHING that moves my points has a set of electrical contacts to assure proper frog power.

The circuit is dead simple - one wire from each stock rail to one fixed contact, and one wire to the moveable contact that can touch either, but not both at the same time.  My manual point movers are electrical SPDT switches, while my Rix and KTM 2-coil machines have dedicated contacts.  I understand that Tortoise machines also have contacts, but have yet to use one.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, June 7, 2014 12:22 AM

I don't use #8 turnouts.  I only use #6 turnouts.  None of my turnouts (Atlas Custom Line and Peco Insulfrog) have live frogs.  I have never had a problem with dead frogs, and my loco roster consists of steamers, diesels and switchers.  As long as both trucks are powered, there should be no stalls.

Rich

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:02 AM

I have just installed Peco Electrofrog switches on my layout and I am sorry to say, I am not really happy with them. Those little contacts on the closure rails keep making trouble, which is difficult to remedy, as I have already applied ballast.

In general, "live" frogs will help you to get a smooth performance, even with short wheelbased locos. To get rid of that contact issue, just install a Tams Valley FrogJuicer, providing you are into DCC.

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, June 7, 2014 3:15 AM

Quote:

''The circuit is dead simple - one wire from each stock rail to one fixed contact, and one wire to the moveable contact that can touch either, but not both at the same time.  My manual point movers are electrical SPDT switches, while my Rix and KTM 2-coil machines have dedicated contacts.  I understand that Tortoise machines also have contacts, but have yet to use one.''

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)


Yes Yes

Ye' old fashion way.

Frank

 

 
 
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Saturday, June 7, 2014 10:20 PM

richhotrain

I don't use #8 turnouts.  I only use #6 turnouts.  None of my turnouts (Atlas Custom Line and Peco Insulfrog) have live frogs.  I have never had a problem with dead frogs, and my loco roster consists of steamers, diesels and switchers.  As long as both trucks are powered, there should be no stalls.

Rich

Howdy, Rich,

How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?)  Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T?  In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:44 AM

tomikawaTT

 

 
richhotrain

I don't use #8 turnouts.  I only use #6 turnouts.  None of my turnouts (Atlas Custom Line and Peco Insulfrog) have live frogs.  I have never had a problem with dead frogs, and my loco roster consists of steamers, diesels and switchers.  As long as both trucks are powered, there should be no stalls.

Rich

 

Howdy, Rich,

How do I power both trucks of a Dockside (B&O 0-4-0T?)  Or of my 1873 Hohenzollern - little block of lead with a wheel at each corner - 0-4-0T?  In both cases, the total loco wheelbase is shorter than the Atlas plastic frog...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

Chuck, there is no question that some short wheelbase locos are going to need a live frog to avoid stalls.

I just don't have anything like that on my layout.  My shortest diesel is an S1 switcher and it has two trucks.  All of my steamers have power in the drivers and power pickups in the tenders.

Rich

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Posted by big daydreamer on Sunday, June 8, 2014 6:43 AM
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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:55 AM

big daydreamer

Yep, I agree.

I think that web site is the best one out there for visualizing the operation of the Peco Insulfrog and the Peco Electrofrog.

Rich

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:07 PM

MisterBeasley
I always use green wires for frogs, because color-coding your wires makes it easier to understand your wiring years later, and what better color than green?

Oh No! Wire Colors.

Well ok, according to building codes Black is hot, White is Neutral and Green is GROUND.

But on your computer, Black is Ground. Telephony uses a different color schema.

On your battery Black is Negative and Red is Positive (or at least I think I am positive about that.)

On railroad of LION the GROUND BUS is bare. But then so is the (+16v) Signal Bus; the 600 Volt Third Rail (+10v) and the 750 Volt Third rail (+12v). Ok, so they are all neatly labled and besides from top to bottom they are GROUND, SIGNAL, 600 Volt, and 750 Volt.

The color of the wires are 100% random. I purchase scrap wires, beg, borrow, or otherwise acquire scrap wires, and pull wires out of dead computers. The come in all different colors. I might as well be color blind as far as what color a particular wire is. (Many of my main cables are 66 conductor cables with all white insulation on them, since they were built before rubber or plastic coatings were invented. They were all inuslated with white strings dipped in wax: Connest one end, and test the other end until you found a match and then wire it together.

When assembling signals I use colors that are close to Green Yellow and Red. (Plus something else for ground.) But maybe I run out of those colors maybe I will use Blue for green, gray for yellow, and brown for red. But the wires I use comes in pairs so the Green Sighanl might be a Green-Yellow conductor, while the Yellow signal might be a Yellow-Green Conductor. I might use a Red-Black conductor for the red signal and a Black-Red conductor for the common. Since I make and install my signals one at a time, I do not need to remember the protocol used for very long, or if I have forgotten, I can test them, but be sure to use a resistor so that you do not blow the LEDS by mistyque.

LION uses nails as binding posts for these cables, now picture the fun I had troubleshooting a cable where two of the nails were touching inside of the wood. A ROARING good time was had by all. Another fun trick is to extend a wire to make it longer. Suppose I have a white wire connected to this post over here and want to connect it to that post over there, but it is not long enough. Well, no problem, we will just solder this blue wire on to it and make it longer. We put a shirk wrap over the solder joint just to keep things kopesthetic.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:13 PM

 Whatever color wire you use, you really should try to keep it consistent so you have some clue when you go back to add some new stuff a few years from now.

 Green for frogs, because frogs are green (Tony the K).

It does make sense to use a different color for the frog wire than for the two rails - because depending on which way the points are lined, the frog can take on either polarity.

                --Randy

 


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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:29 PM

Here's a live Frog:

 

Whistling

Frank

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