I have many older engines that I bought in the late 70's early to mid 80's and then had to store them for a long period of time due to being in the service and not having somewhere I could really set up and run a layout. Now that I can I have found that many of the engines I have the motors are either weak or DOA. I don't want to turn them all into dummy units but looking at repowering them as well as updating them with DCC. Most of the equipment is either Athearn or AHM/Riverrossi. Any suggestions on motors and DCC equipment that I could use to install in the engines. They vary from Steam to Diesel. Thanks.
FOr the Athearns, it's pretty easy. Alliance has repower kits for most every AThearn diesel ever made. http://www.alliancelink.com/alp/
The Rivarossi ones will be a bit more complex. If you have some of the REALLY oldones with the absurdly deep flanges, you'll probably want to get them turned down as well so they run well on modern track. Around the late 60's/early 70's they changed to a different but still oversize flange that usually works ok. Newer production finally has proper size flanges.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but since these are thirty to forty year old locomotives I think you will be time and money ahead to place them back in the box and store them in the far recesses of your attic or basement. The present day offerings are generally light years better than the best of what was available thirty years ago. If you are just getting back into the hobby you had better prepare yourself for sticker shock. Go out and buy a quality DCC system and a quality locomotive with a factory installed sound and motion decoder. Same applies to track, turnouts and rolling stock. Get the best that you can afford. Then, after your "hobby skills" have returned and you have a layout in progress you might amuse yourself some day by dragging those old locomotives out of the closet . I'll bet, though, that when you compare them with the new stuff you will decide they are not worth the time and money to ugrade and back in the box they will go... Keep reading these Forums and you'll quickly get a good idea of what, and what not, to buy.
Split Reduction.
I do have some of the really old units with the deep flanges on them, how or what is the best way to turn them down in order to run them on my layout? or am I doomed to run code 100 on the whole layout? I don't have a lathe so I need some help on how to turn them down.
SteamDemon
Steam Demon.
Your handle may speak volumes about your tenacity. However, do you really love your "old" locomotives so much that you now want to turn down the "over sized" flanges so that they can operate "poorly" on code 83 and code 70 track- even though you don't have a lath or any way to do it except maybe sandpaper and a file.
I am beginnig to suspect that your post is a gag and I got sucked into it.
Split Reduction - Do you know what it means?
Here are a couple links that address the pizza cutter wheel issue:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/164871/1814577.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/138111/1543271.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/178728.aspx
I assume that we're talking steam engines here. If you're talking diesels with pizza cutter wheels, my personal opinion would be not to waste your time.
Split ReductionI don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but since these are thirty to forty year old locomotives ... place them back in the box and store them in the far recesses of your attic or basement. The present day offerings are generally light years better than the best of what was available thirty years ago. ... Split Reduction.
I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but since these are thirty to forty year old locomotives ... place them back in the box and store them in the far recesses of your attic or basement. The present day offerings are generally light years better than the best of what was available thirty years ago. ...
I, too, am returning after a hiatus of twenty plus years due to the demands of family and career. Now divorced and retired, I am getting back into the hobby, carefully removing the bubble-wrapped 6'-0" x 2'-6" sections of railroad, sporting handlaid code 83 and code 70 rail on Campbell Profile ties on homosote/1/2" plywood on "L-girders, and unpacking the dozen and a half brass Camelbacks collected over the years and preparing to re-motor and DCC/sound decoder them, one at a time until they're all done.
Would you offer me the same advice? I'd rather change hobbies to say ... I don't know ... counted cross stitch. I didn't work hard, save pennies for a whole lot of years , look long periods of time for exactly the type and wheel arrangements of locomotives I wanted for on my freelanced prototype railroad that I've been developing for a couple of decades, just to be told I should now put them in boxes in the back of a dark closet and buy some "they-all-look-alike-but-the-paint-scheme" diesel locomotive just because that's what everyone else has! If you are telling me, as some self-appointed "Expert and Director of the Hobby," that my choices have become that limited, I'd just as soon go up to the American Legion and join the "rest of the old farts" enjoying some adult beverages.
I have noticed that there is a tendancy to go R-T-R, rather than to build anything these days ... the young guys don't want to take the time to build anything. Personally, I see that as an effort to sidestep the reality that they don't know how to build anything and aren't willing to take the time to learn!
BiL Marsland (P5se Camelback) Lehigh Susquehanna & Western Northeastern Pennsylvania Coal Hauler All Camelback Steam Roster!! "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others" -- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Chpt. 10
Split Reduction Steam Demon. Your handle may speak volumes about your tenacity. However, do you really love your "old" locomotives so much that you now want to turn down the "over sized" flanges so that they can operate "poorly" on code 83 and code 70 track- even though you don't have a lath or any way to do it except maybe sandpaper and a file. I am beginnig to suspect that your post is a gag and I got sucked into it. Split Reduction - Do you know what it means?
It's not a gag, just sentimental value for some of these engines, some were bought with hard earned money, others were gifts from my late father and uncle who both worked for the B&O and as such bought me many rolling stock and engines for my layout knowing my love for the Road. So for me it's more a labor of love to bring them back than a cost issue for me. It takes me back to a time before I was in the service and seen and done what I did for 221/2 years in places I don't want to ever go back to. But enough said about my service past, the issue for me is saving these engines and bringing them forward to run with newer equipment. I plan to buy newer equipment to run on the layout as well. Right now I am working on benchwork, but before I start laying track I am trying to find out what is my best bet when it comes to trackage issues.
I have 16 Steam Engines, and 12 Diesels that I am looking at in my collection. that's alot of equipment to just write off. Sorry not trying to be rude, just a little sensitive about them.
maxman Here are a couple links that address the pizza cutter wheel issue: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/164871/1814577.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/138111/1543271.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/178728.aspx I assume that we're talking steam engines here. If you're talking diesels with pizza cutter wheels, my personal opinion would be not to waste your time.
Ok I read your links you provided, and thank you for them, the question is would it be better to pull the wheels off and "file" them, if so could I use the diameter from a newer engine's wheel such as Athrean or others as a go-no go gauge or is there a scale size I can translate using an outside micrometer to measure the flanges to make sure I don't go too far? Since I am retired I have plenty of time just need the intel so I can move forward without wrecking them. Thanks,
When I got back into the hobby, I had boxes of trains that had been stored for 40 years. I, too, looked into resurrecting these old warhorses. It takes more than just motors. In all likelihood, the old wheels are pitted and corroded, and won't make good contact. Then, these old engines have a well-deserved reputation as "meat grinders" for the sound the gear towers make.
Of the dozen or so engines that I carried with me all those years, only one worked well enough to get a decoder and actually stay on the layout. Forget about a sound decoder. This one sounds like a kitchen appliance, and after listening to it go once around the layout, I'm disappointed that I don't get a pina colada for all my suffering.
Instead, I've turned two of them into dummies. The old F7 has a sound-only decoder and headlights, so it runs in a consist with an old shell that I put on a new chassis. If you really like the old engines, take a look at getting chassis replacements. You may have to do a bit of "body work" to get it to fit, but it's an upgrade option that can give you the best of both worlds.
When I was looking for a re-motor kit for an old GP9, I came across a brand new one, out of production and on sale for less than the cost of just a motor kit. When I got it home, I immediately realized that I wanted a model railroad with great-looking, smooth-running engines. I wasn't really interested in a nostalgic re-creation of my childhood layout, noisy engines and all. The old geep has Kadees and nothing else now, and maybe it will get a sound decoder of its own one of these days, but its days of doing the grunt work of pulling trains are over.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
When I decided the time had come to once again get serious about the hobby, I still had "The Plan," the three-ring binder with the whole thing laid out, the plan I had been fine-tuning for over thirty years, the railroad name, the history, the locale, the reason for being, the USGS maps, the locomotive classifications and the numbering system, the freight car classifications and that numbering system, the passenger car classifications and that numbering system, the MOW numbering system, etc.
Back in the early 1971, when "The Plan" was in its infant stages, motive power was determined to be Wooten fireboxed Camelacks, since the Lehigh Susquehanna & Western was to be a northeastern Pennsylvania Coal Hauler. I put my very first HO locomotive, a Varney F3 (from a Kix cereal box-top offer when I was seven) that I had put a single truck power conversion in and given an "8 year-old's Pennsy brush paint job" on was put carefully in a box, where it rests today as a memento of where I started) and then my first locomotive purchase after saving for a long time was a Gem Reading I10sa Consolidation, in 1973, then a Reading A5a 0-4-0, then another, then a Reading B8a 0-6-0 ... and the searching and buying continued. The most recent addition is an OMI Reading D-Class American. There are now 14 Wooten fireboxed Camelbacks and three rear-cabbed Wooten fireboxed locomotives on the roster, including a late 1940's vintage Mantua hybrid brass w/ zamac cast boiler Reading G1sa Pacific that I have super detailed with dozens of Cal-Scale parts, on the current roster!
I am NOT going to put them in boxes in the "dark reaches of a closet!" They have not been easy to accumulate! You don't find one of these brass Camelbacks in every hobby shop glass case! I am going to stick with the plan that I have continued to develop (even when I had no space and too many family and career responsibilities to build a railroad) and use the older brass that I have very carefully chosen ... when was the last time you saw a pair of Reading I5c Consolidations with the tender canopies?
No, I will use my older brass ... and they will all get the DCC treatment ... somehow!
Steam Demon
There are alternatives to replacing the older equipment. Almost everything can be re-motored and re-wheeled. Bowser, Greenway products are just a couple of places to get replacement drivers for your steamers. NWSN is another place for motor and drives. Fabrication and some machine shop metal working knowledge are in order. Replacing the drivers is more effective than to turning down the flanges of your older units. Most of the old pot metal used is not very conductive of electricity. A wheel puller, Quarterer, selection of good files, drill press(optional), Good screw drivers, drill and bits, measuring calipers, NMRA standards gauge, vise and excellent lighting is all you need. Some searching on the internet for tender and pilot/trailing wheels.
If I remember correctly Darth Santa Fe just did a thread on replacing drivers on a Rivarossi loco just a couple weeks ago. Yes it is the last link Maxman sent you.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
B&O SteamDemon maxman: Here are a couple links that address the pizza cutter wheel issue: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/164871/1814577.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/138111/1543271.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/178728.aspx I assume that we're talking steam engines here. If you're talking diesels with pizza cutter wheels, my personal opinion would be not to waste your time. Ok I read your links you provided, and thank you for them, the question is would it be better to pull the wheels off and "file" them, if so could I use the diameter from a newer engine's wheel such as Athrean or others as a go-no go gauge or is there a scale size I can translate using an outside micrometer to measure the flanges to make sure I don't go too far? Since I am retired I have plenty of time just need the intel so I can move forward without wrecking them. Thanks, SteamDemon
maxman: Here are a couple links that address the pizza cutter wheel issue: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/164871/1814577.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/138111/1543271.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/178728.aspx I assume that we're talking steam engines here. If you're talking diesels with pizza cutter wheels, my personal opinion would be not to waste your time.
As others have said above, there are sources for replacement drivers that you can purchase. I don't know what you mean by "pulling the wheels off". If you mean pulling each driver off its axle, then you get into re-quartering them.
But, you asked about using another wheel as a guide to what the contour is supposed to look like. And you mentioned a micrometer so it sounds like you're familiar with precision measurement tools. If that is the case, you don't need a sample wheel. All you need is what the dimensions are supposed to be. Here are a couple links to the NMRA website which contain the information you are looking for:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/S-4_2ScaleWheels.html
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/rp25.html
Dear Steam demon, et all.
Sorry if I offended. What I was trying to say was, if you are just getting back into the hobby, you would be better off starting fresh and get your layout under way so you can enjoy running trains. After the initial phase and things have settled down, that is the time to bring out the old favorites and see what you can do with them. As for myself, I've been in the hobby since 1962. I've been a Conductor and railroad official for over thirty five years and am now retired. I have lots of time to spend on the hobby. I have some old 1960's mantua and Bowser steam locomotives which I "super detailed" once upon a time. These old engines are precious to me, They bring back memories, but I am not going to try to upgrade them to today's standards. I feel that I've better ways to spend my time. But, that is me. As you can see from numerous comments in this forum, there is a wealth of resources out there that will let a determined individual completely rebuilt any locomotive model. All it takes is a pile of money, desire and a great deal of patience.
Maybe I've got it all wrong. Perhaps you are not planning on building a layout and running trains. Maybe your idea of model railroading enjoyment is rebuilding old locomotives. If that's the case, you would not be alone in this hobby. Model railroading is supposed to be fun. So, what ever it is you plan to do I hope you enjoy doing it and let none be critical- myself included.
Split Reduction- Modeling the Milwaukee Road ( very little RTR ) in Western Wisconsin.
steamDemon if you are looking to repower the AHM S1 the IHC 2-10-2 will fit has rp25 flanges and is DCC ready in order to get the circut board in the vandy cut out the coal load and trim and fit the board most of the other AHM engines can be replaced with newer equipment in time HOPE this helps paul
Thanks, this will definately help, I appreciate any help on this.
SteamDemon,
Whether you use your older locomotives on your new layout regularly or not, it is best to take apart the drive train and re-lube all of the gears and other moving parts. You will need to use plastic compatible grease and oils.
Labelle Lubricants makes some fine plastic compatible lubricants. They have a wide variety for different applications. Some modelers use automatic transmission fluid with Dextron.
Will
My troubleshooting tendency is to start with the basics and never assume anything.
When you say the motors are weak or DOA, how did you test them? The problem may not be the motor itself, but hardened grease or dirt in the mechanism, making it hard or impossible for the motor to turn the wheels. Also, check for any other source of binding in the mechanism. The Athearn ones should be straight forward. Disassemble and clean each power truck, fresh grease and oil in the proper places. Check for any binding at each step in the reassembly.
Steam models, if not stored VERY carefully can suffer from bent or damaged rods that can cause the binding problem.
And definately don't forget to check the electrical pickup system, especially dirty wheels.
Hi!
I feel your pain.............
I converted to DCC last year and am extremely happy with the results. I had a fairly large number of locos that I ended up thinning down to about 60, selling the excess on Ebay. This initial process was to get rid of any locos that would have no business on my ATSF / IC post war layout.
When I got into DCC, I had about 8 DCC locos ready to run. While I am fairly good with regular wiring and stuff, I just didn't want to attempt conversions on locos that were overly difficult. So, with the input of the good folks on this Forum, I determined that ten or so of my remaining locos were "more trouble to convert than I cared to handle", so they went the Ebay route as well.
So my locos today are all relatively recent, with the oldest being Atlas RS and P2Ks and Stewarts. All the Rivarossi and Athearns are gone. That is NOT a put down of these locos, but they just did not meet my criteria for the new layout.
In short, I suggest you really consider which locos would work best in your new world, and sell off the rest. In my case, the funds from the thinning out easily paid for decoders for most all the remaining locos.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Turning down Rivarossi drives isnt hard, just takes time and patience as the driver centers are plastic and will melt with to much heat. I have turned down many using a dremel with a stone wheel and using the engine own motor to rotate the drivers while upside down in a cradle I use to work on them with. All of my Athearns run with thier original motors unless weak and running hot. This includes ones with the old black "ring" style magnets. Many are old ones with diecast metal side frames and I prefer these as they pull better. All still have thier sintered iron wheels which pull better and with proper cleaning once and awhile work just fine. I enjoy taking the time to tear down an Athearn diesel, clean and regrease the trucks, fine tune the motor by removing all the back and forth slop in the armature shaft as well as in the worm gear shaft a the top of the truck with thrust washers. I have standard blue box Athearns that run almost as smooth and quiet as the most modern Kato or Kato clone drive on the market. Most have DCC/Sound in them as well, installed at the same time I go thru the drive. Keep in mind that todays market/hobbiest has the "gotta have it now" syndrome so everything comes RTR, with tons of fragle detail, sound/dcc in many models and the price tag to boot. Older Athearns come from back in the day when modelers actualy spent the time, and enjoyed the challenge of taking a solid base product and taking it to the next level of performance. A trait that seems lost on many newer modelers that just want to go from box to layout with no actualy "modeling" involved beyond that. Where I live, the economy took a really hard hit and still way down compared to many areas, unemployment is still over 10.2% localy. So cheaper models, ie blue box Athearns, found at many local hobby shops still or thru internet sources are very popular. We have several hobby shops in our area that stock full lines of the detail parts. Thus spending down time while either unemployed or after work can still be enjoyed on a less expensive level. Athearns are a solid design, almost to the level of being bulletproof. There is a book, I believe its from Kalmbach that walks you thru the whole process of tuning up Athearn diesels and getting the preformance from them that rival the newest on the market. Rivarossi can also be made to run well, but take a bit more effort in turning down the flanges, which are not an issue, if your going to stick to code 100 track. However if you want to run code 83 track it will need to be done. Remotoring is usualy required on them as the old Rivarossi 3 pole motors left much to be desired for slow speed operation. The difficulty of repowering them depends on the model and its age. Feel free to contact me off open forum to discuss this further as I have done many repowers and tune ups for the local modeling crowd. I understand many modelers dont have the skills or the time to do this kind of work, but I disagree with telling the person(s) to put them back in the closet and go spend $$ which they may or may not have on newer models. Instead lets help him/her get these older models running again, for little to any outlay in money, but just for some time well spent learning how to work on trains. Cheers Mike and Michele T
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!