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Access Door on Some E8s?

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Access Door on Some E8s?
Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:04 AM

Looking over the recent Rapido E8 has drawn my curiosity to a rectangular panel just ahead of the sand filler hatch and I wondered what could be behind there. I know the nose is filled primarily with air brake equipment so I'm trying to reason what would benefit from outside access rather than going into the nose from the cab or nose door.

 Chicago & North Western - California Avenue Coach Yard by d.w.davidson, on Flickr

It is found on both sides of the nose:

 Chicago & North Western - California Avenue Coach Yard by d.w.davidson, on Flickr

Not all E8s have the panel.

 C&O E8 #4021, wb George Washington, Vincennes, Ind Feb 68PS by Rick Wright, on Flickr

Regards, Ed

 

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Posted by PM Railfan on Sunday, February 19, 2023 1:50 AM

I was thinking access to pilot servo controls, or access to the pilot control servo fluid resevoirs maybe?

 

Douglas

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 2:46 AM

Ya' got me scratchin' my noggin on that one, Douglas. I used to work on some hydraulic systems and we had pilot-operated servo valves. Are you thinking something along those lines?

Now back in the E7 days there were pilot-operated retractable couplers but they were only on a few engines and they proved to be a nuisance.

 EMD_E7_draft gear retract by Edmund, on Flickr

They did have a type of air-assisted hydraulic system as I recall.

Thanks Yes   Ed

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Posted by PM Railfan on Sunday, February 19, 2023 1:33 PM

I probably didnt say that right, but thats what i was thinking. Cant locate my EMD Diesel book. I should know this stuff by heart. But good working brain cells these days are like E8s themselves..... very rare! 

What I did find last night was these access doors on E8's-and E9's.  I found this.....

However, the key to this was not posted. The only other thing I know of in this area was the 'air brake rack'. I have seen this hatch on both side of nose, Im kinda leaning on that servo thing though. 

Just out of sheer imagination, it wouldnt be hostler access from the ground? 

 

Douglas

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 4:07 PM

PM Railfan
However, the key to this was not posted.

By golly we put our collective brains together on this one!

 EMD_E9-legend by Edmund, on Flickr

   #27  Lifting Lugs! 

Scouring over some additional photos I found some engines had jacking pads, others had combination jacking pad/lifting lug and some, such as Santa Fe and PRR famously had the nose-lifting eyes.

 Nose_lift by Edmund, on Flickr

Thanks for the sleuthing, Douglas! Now to find a photo of the lifting lugs in use.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, February 19, 2023 4:29 PM

gmpullman
Now to find a photo of the lifting lugs in use.

Lug lifting by Bear, on Flickr

Whistling

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, February 19, 2023 4:43 PM
I should try to make amends.Embarrassed
 
While not the “real thing” this fine model shows the lifting lugs fitted.
 
 
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 5:41 PM

While not the “real thing” this fine model shows the lifting lugs fitted.

Amends accepted!

My heavens, what a beautiful model! Thank you for finding that, Bear Bow

Regards, Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, February 19, 2023 5:48 PM

I know that model, but it has been a few years since I was there last. 

B&O museum here in Baltimore, guess I have been there at least 20 or so times in my 65 years.

And the answer was found and posted before I got a chance, but I did find that in some E8 info I have.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by OldEngineman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 9:25 PM

Access to the sander valves to clean out the sanders when needed...?

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Posted by PM Railfan on Monday, February 20, 2023 1:00 AM

Ed) you sure can pick some doozys! LOL I woulda never guessed they were anything to do with lifting. Because up til this post, I always thought the front mounted lift rings (on the pilot) were the only way to lift an F/E unit. Learn something everyday. All's left now is to forget what i just learnt.

(this would suppose that any unit that had an access hatch on one side, MUST have one on the other. A good way to prove thats exactly what it is.)

I wonder how many were thinking thats where the blinker fluid goes in Laugh

 

Whats next??

Douglas

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 10:31 AM

PM Railfan
I wonder how many were thinking thats where the blinker fluid goes in

Alemite-fitting access for the dynamic-brake caliper bearing grease.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 10:43 AM

The model shows the lifting lugs standing proud of the shell surface.  It also appears from the prototype photos that the hatches are not wide enough to easily reach in and bolt lugs from the outside.

Does this mean that the lugs flopped down on some sort of pivot when not in use?

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 3:43 AM
Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!
 
maxman
Does this mean that the lugs flopped down on some sort of pivot when not in use?
\
I really don’t know but I don’t think so.
 
I’m thinking (yes, that explains the burning smell) along the lines that the lug is an eyebolt with a threaded portion at the end for a nut, and I’m trying to convince myself that I could reach through the gap between the frames to put the nut on while turning the eyebolt to get the nut started and hold it until the base of the eyebolt is up to the body, finishing tightening the nut with a suitable ratcheting wrench. The nut itself doesn’t have to be that tight because provided the bolt shank is in a suitably anchored bearing block to the frames, the eyebolt/lug is acting in shear.
 
Anyhow from this site containing the “EMD Enginemen’s’ Operating Manual, Model E8” …
… I obtained this.
 
EMD E8 by Bear, on Flickr
 
Cheers, the none the wiser Bear.Confused

 

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 3:49 AM
Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!
maxman
Does this mean that the lugs flopped down on some sort of pivot when not in use?
I really don’t know but I don’t think so.
 
I’m thinking (yes, that explains the burning smell) along the lines that the lug is an eyebolt with a threaded portion at the end for a nut, and I’m trying to convince myself that I could reach through the gap between the frames to put the nut on while turning the eyebolt to get the nut started and hold it until the base of the eyebolt is up to the body, finishing tightening the nut with a suitable ratcheting wrench. The nut itself doesn’t have to be that tight because provided the bolt shank is in a suitably anchored bearing block to the frames, the eyebolt/lug is acting in shear.
 
Anyhow from this site containing the “EMD Enginemen’s’ Operating Manual, Model E8” …
 
 
… I obtained this.
 
EMD E8 by Bear, on Flickr
 
Cheers, the none the wiser Bear.Confused
 
EDIT.
Umm!!! Tom, if you happen to be around, I don’t know what I did, but could you please delete my first attempt at the reply to Maxman!
Cheers, the throughly confused Bear.ConfusedConfused

 

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Posted by maxman on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 11:24 AM

When they say lifting lug I think of something permanent, like those nose mounted things.

I don't think something like an eye bolt would work.  An eye bolt has all of its strength when pulled straight.  It is at its weakest when pulled horizontally, parallel to the surface into which it is screwed.

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Posted by PM Railfan on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 6:17 PM
Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.

 

JaBear wrote the following post 13 hours ago:

"Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!"
 
 
Oh my yes, the B&O Museum is an all day adventure. Every minute of it will be well spent I can assure you!
 
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 7:42 PM

PM Railfan
Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.

 

JaBear wrote the following post 13 hours ago:

"Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!"
 
 
Oh my yes, the B&O Museum is an all day adventure. Every minute of it will be well spent I can assure you!
 
 

Being a life long Maryland resident, most of it within a 45 minute drive to Baltimore, and having a life long connection to the model train hobby and trains in general, I have been going there since I was a child. 

I have personally known a number of people who worked at the museum, one fellow modeler friend from the past is the son of the gentleman who built the original HO display layout at the museum back in the lat 50's. Now replaced by a layout also built by several people I know.

It is literally the birthplace of railroading in the US.  The original building built as the first station and offices of the B&O is part part of the museum.

Everyone with an interest in trains should see this collection.

I even still have a little information booklet from one of my earliest vists, likely about 1965.

It is filled with some of the most important railroad artifacts in North America.

Example - B&O USRA 2-8-2 #4500 - the very first USRA locomotive built. 

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, February 23, 2023 12:30 AM

PM Railfan
Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.

I'm all eyes!

I don't imagine the side lifting lugs are much help in the case of derailments. One of the reasons the PRR and Santa Fe elected for the nose eyes, I suspect.

I came across an interesting photo of an E7 in trouble showing the use of an attachment point that probably isn't in the EMD standard parctices book:

 SAL, Raleigh, North Carolina, 1961 by Center for Railroad Photography & Art, on Flickr

I see several styles of "jacking pads" and these are frequently placed on locomotives, passenger cars and some freight cars. Some jacking pads seem to have additional features that allow a wire rope sling to be used for lifting.

Others seem to have features that permit the long arms of a spreader bar such as would be found in larger back shops.

I recall being in the NYC's Collinwood shop and watching a locomotive being lifted over the top of other engines in the shop. It was a quick operation for the crane operator and the machinists on the floor to place the arms to make the lift. None of the NYC Es or Fs had any extra lifting lugs other than the jacking pads along the side bolster.

 Levitation by Kevin Cavanaugh, on Flickr

Thanks for all the responses, Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, February 25, 2023 10:51 PM

maxman
I don't think something like an eye bolt would work.  An eye bolt has all of its strength when pulled straight.  It is at its weakest when pulled horizontally, parallel to the surface into which it is screwed.

Not necessarily. To be fair, perhaps I should have said eyebolt type arrangement, but otherwise I’m comfortable with my original hypothesis. Just think tent peg; the load is definitely not perpendicular.
 
Once again Search Engine Ed comes up with another doozey of a photo!
It would appear that they’ve just placed the hook under the body at the front in the vicinity of where a “lifting lug” would be on those locomotives that had them installed. A lifting frame, as I found in the drawing on my last reply, may not even fit.
And look at all that work done and there’s not a hard hat or dayglo vest in sight!!
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, February 25, 2023 11:13 PM

If you blow up the picture of the model at the B&O museum, you can see a large round ring projecting outside the car body. It would apear that this lifting lug was some sort of retractable lug, either by rotating out and up, or some similar design that would put the actual connection and lifting cable safely outside the car body allowing a proper connection and straight vertical pull.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, March 28, 2023 3:18 PM

I recently came across a photo of this UP E while getting prepped for paint and you can see the lifting lug inside its pocket. Looks like about a 1½" thick steel lug in there that, presumably, can be swung outward and upward to engage a lifting arm off a spreader beam from a hoist.

 Painting UP 942, Orange Empire Ry Museum -- Part 1 -- 6 photos by Marty Bernard, on Flickr

Too bad the resolution of the photo doesn't allow for a closer look.

Regards, Ed

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