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Access Door on Some E8s?

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Access Door on Some E8s?
Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:04 AM

Looking over the recent Rapido E8 has drawn my curiosity to a rectangular panel just ahead of the sand filler hatch and I wondered what could be behind there. I know the nose is filled primarily with air brake equipment so I'm trying to reason what would benefit from outside access rather than going into the nose from the cab or nose door.

 Chicago & North Western - California Avenue Coach Yard by d.w.davidson, on Flickr

It is found on both sides of the nose:

 Chicago & North Western - California Avenue Coach Yard by d.w.davidson, on Flickr

Not all E8s have the panel.

 C&O E8 #4021, wb George Washington, Vincennes, Ind Feb 68PS by Rick Wright, on Flickr

Regards, Ed

 

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Posted by PM Railfan on Sunday, February 19, 2023 1:50 AM

I was thinking access to pilot servo controls, or access to the pilot control servo fluid resevoirs maybe?

 

Douglas

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 2:46 AM

Ya' got me scratchin' my noggin on that one, Douglas. I used to work on some hydraulic systems and we had pilot-operated servo valves. Are you thinking something along those lines?

Now back in the E7 days there were pilot-operated retractable couplers but they were only on a few engines and they proved to be a nuisance.

 EMD_E7_draft gear retract by Edmund, on Flickr

They did have a type of air-assisted hydraulic system as I recall.

Thanks Yes   Ed

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Posted by PM Railfan on Sunday, February 19, 2023 1:33 PM

I probably didnt say that right, but thats what i was thinking. Cant locate my EMD Diesel book. I should know this stuff by heart. But good working brain cells these days are like E8s themselves..... very rare! 

What I did find last night was these access doors on E8's-and E9's.  I found this.....

However, the key to this was not posted. The only other thing I know of in this area was the 'air brake rack'. I have seen this hatch on both side of nose, Im kinda leaning on that servo thing though. 

Just out of sheer imagination, it wouldnt be hostler access from the ground? 

 

Douglas

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 4:07 PM

PM Railfan
However, the key to this was not posted.

By golly we put our collective brains together on this one!

 EMD_E9-legend by Edmund, on Flickr

   #27  Lifting Lugs! 

Scouring over some additional photos I found some engines had jacking pads, others had combination jacking pad/lifting lug and some, such as Santa Fe and PRR famously had the nose-lifting eyes.

 Nose_lift by Edmund, on Flickr

Thanks for the sleuthing, Douglas! Now to find a photo of the lifting lugs in use.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, February 19, 2023 4:29 PM

gmpullman
Now to find a photo of the lifting lugs in use.

Lug lifting by Bear, on Flickr

Whistling

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, February 19, 2023 4:43 PM
I should try to make amends.Embarrassed
 
While not the “real thing” this fine model shows the lifting lugs fitted.
 
 
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 5:41 PM

While not the “real thing” this fine model shows the lifting lugs fitted.

Amends accepted!

My heavens, what a beautiful model! Thank you for finding that, Bear Bow

Regards, Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, February 19, 2023 5:48 PM

I know that model, but it has been a few years since I was there last. 

B&O museum here in Baltimore, guess I have been there at least 20 or so times in my 65 years.

And the answer was found and posted before I got a chance, but I did find that in some E8 info I have.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by OldEngineman on Sunday, February 19, 2023 9:25 PM

Access to the sander valves to clean out the sanders when needed...?

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Posted by PM Railfan on Monday, February 20, 2023 1:00 AM

Ed) you sure can pick some doozys! LOL I woulda never guessed they were anything to do with lifting. Because up til this post, I always thought the front mounted lift rings (on the pilot) were the only way to lift an F/E unit. Learn something everyday. All's left now is to forget what i just learnt.

(this would suppose that any unit that had an access hatch on one side, MUST have one on the other. A good way to prove thats exactly what it is.)

I wonder how many were thinking thats where the blinker fluid goes in Laugh

 

Whats next??

Douglas

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 10:31 AM

PM Railfan
I wonder how many were thinking thats where the blinker fluid goes in

Alemite-fitting access for the dynamic-brake caliper bearing grease.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 10:43 AM

The model shows the lifting lugs standing proud of the shell surface.  It also appears from the prototype photos that the hatches are not wide enough to easily reach in and bolt lugs from the outside.

Does this mean that the lugs flopped down on some sort of pivot when not in use?

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 3:43 AM
Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!
 
maxman
Does this mean that the lugs flopped down on some sort of pivot when not in use?
\
I really don’t know but I don’t think so.
 
I’m thinking (yes, that explains the burning smell) along the lines that the lug is an eyebolt with a threaded portion at the end for a nut, and I’m trying to convince myself that I could reach through the gap between the frames to put the nut on while turning the eyebolt to get the nut started and hold it until the base of the eyebolt is up to the body, finishing tightening the nut with a suitable ratcheting wrench. The nut itself doesn’t have to be that tight because provided the bolt shank is in a suitably anchored bearing block to the frames, the eyebolt/lug is acting in shear.
 
Anyhow from this site containing the “EMD Enginemen’s’ Operating Manual, Model E8” …
… I obtained this.
 
EMD E8 by Bear, on Flickr
 
Cheers, the none the wiser Bear.Confused

 

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 3:49 AM
Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!
maxman
Does this mean that the lugs flopped down on some sort of pivot when not in use?
I really don’t know but I don’t think so.
 
I’m thinking (yes, that explains the burning smell) along the lines that the lug is an eyebolt with a threaded portion at the end for a nut, and I’m trying to convince myself that I could reach through the gap between the frames to put the nut on while turning the eyebolt to get the nut started and hold it until the base of the eyebolt is up to the body, finishing tightening the nut with a suitable ratcheting wrench. The nut itself doesn’t have to be that tight because provided the bolt shank is in a suitably anchored bearing block to the frames, the eyebolt/lug is acting in shear.
 
Anyhow from this site containing the “EMD Enginemen’s’ Operating Manual, Model E8” …
 
 
… I obtained this.
 
EMD E8 by Bear, on Flickr
 
Cheers, the none the wiser Bear.Confused
 
EDIT.
Umm!!! Tom, if you happen to be around, I don’t know what I did, but could you please delete my first attempt at the reply to Maxman!
Cheers, the throughly confused Bear.ConfusedConfused

 

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Posted by maxman on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 11:24 AM

When they say lifting lug I think of something permanent, like those nose mounted things.

I don't think something like an eye bolt would work.  An eye bolt has all of its strength when pulled straight.  It is at its weakest when pulled horizontally, parallel to the surface into which it is screwed.

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Posted by PM Railfan on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 6:17 PM
Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.

 

JaBear wrote the following post 13 hours ago:

"Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!"
 
 
Oh my yes, the B&O Museum is an all day adventure. Every minute of it will be well spent I can assure you!
 
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 7:42 PM

PM Railfan
Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.

 

JaBear wrote the following post 13 hours ago:

"Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!"
 
 
Oh my yes, the B&O Museum is an all day adventure. Every minute of it will be well spent I can assure you!
 
 

Being a life long Maryland resident, most of it within a 45 minute drive to Baltimore, and having a life long connection to the model train hobby and trains in general, I have been going there since I was a child. 

I have personally known a number of people who worked at the museum, one fellow modeler friend from the past is the son of the gentleman who built the original HO display layout at the museum back in the lat 50's. Now replaced by a layout also built by several people I know.

It is literally the birthplace of railroading in the US.  The original building built as the first station and offices of the B&O is part part of the museum.

Everyone with an interest in trains should see this collection.

I even still have a little information booklet from one of my earliest vists, likely about 1965.

It is filled with some of the most important railroad artifacts in North America.

Example - B&O USRA 2-8-2 #4500 - the very first USRA locomotive built. 

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, February 23, 2023 12:30 AM

PM Railfan
Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.

I'm all eyes!

I don't imagine the side lifting lugs are much help in the case of derailments. One of the reasons the PRR and Santa Fe elected for the nose eyes, I suspect.

I came across an interesting photo of an E7 in trouble showing the use of an attachment point that probably isn't in the EMD standard parctices book:

 SAL, Raleigh, North Carolina, 1961 by Center for Railroad Photography & Art, on Flickr

I see several styles of "jacking pads" and these are frequently placed on locomotives, passenger cars and some freight cars. Some jacking pads seem to have additional features that allow a wire rope sling to be used for lifting.

Others seem to have features that permit the long arms of a spreader bar such as would be found in larger back shops.

I recall being in the NYC's Collinwood shop and watching a locomotive being lifted over the top of other engines in the shop. It was a quick operation for the crane operator and the machinists on the floor to place the arms to make the lift. None of the NYC Es or Fs had any extra lifting lugs other than the jacking pads along the side bolster.

 Levitation by Kevin Cavanaugh, on Flickr

Thanks for all the responses, Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, February 25, 2023 10:51 PM

maxman
I don't think something like an eye bolt would work.  An eye bolt has all of its strength when pulled straight.  It is at its weakest when pulled horizontally, parallel to the surface into which it is screwed.

Not necessarily. To be fair, perhaps I should have said eyebolt type arrangement, but otherwise I’m comfortable with my original hypothesis. Just think tent peg; the load is definitely not perpendicular.
 
Once again Search Engine Ed comes up with another doozey of a photo!
It would appear that they’ve just placed the hook under the body at the front in the vicinity of where a “lifting lug” would be on those locomotives that had them installed. A lifting frame, as I found in the drawing on my last reply, may not even fit.
And look at all that work done and there’s not a hard hat or dayglo vest in sight!!
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, February 25, 2023 11:13 PM

If you blow up the picture of the model at the B&O museum, you can see a large round ring projecting outside the car body. It would apear that this lifting lug was some sort of retractable lug, either by rotating out and up, or some similar design that would put the actual connection and lifting cable safely outside the car body allowing a proper connection and straight vertical pull.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, March 28, 2023 3:18 PM

I recently came across a photo of this UP E while getting prepped for paint and you can see the lifting lug inside its pocket. Looks like about a 1½" thick steel lug in there that, presumably, can be swung outward and upward to engage a lifting arm off a spreader beam from a hoist.

 Painting UP 942, Orange Empire Ry Museum -- Part 1 -- 6 photos by Marty Bernard, on Flickr

Too bad the resolution of the photo doesn't allow for a closer look.

Another Big Lift!

 Union Pacific Railroad - UP gas turbine electric locomotive Nr. 75 - Salt Lake City Workshop, Utah by Historical Railway Images, on Flickr

Regards, Ed

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Posted by "JaBear" on Thursday, March 30, 2023 5:41 PM

gmpullman
Too bad the resolution of the photo doesn't allow for a closer look.

Yeah, it is a pity but it is still illuminating.
 
On reflection, I find it interesting that my assumption that the lugs would be removable, was based on my aviation engineering background where any weight surplus to necessity is to be eliminated., whereas locomotive designers are looking for weight to aid adhesion though with certain caveats. (The New Zealand Railways were “cursed” by several foreign locomotive manufacturers who ignored the specified axle weights with often expensive and unsatisfactory consequences.)
  
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

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Posted by PM Railfan on Thursday, March 30, 2023 6:27 PM

Something else about that last E8 pic (prep for painting).

 

I always presumed the numbers were 'number cards' placed on the backside of the protecting glass. Kinda similar to the way we decal our numbers. Allowing only the light to pass through the 'number', not around it. But not permanant like our decals - changeable.

This pic shows that glass removed, and numbers still there. Obviously not 'cards'. Learn something every day!

 

(and by cards, another referrence would be like the sign you see at Wendys out front - advertising this months special burger. The Wendys icon above, and underneath changeable black letters [cards] on a white board.)

 

Douglas

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, March 30, 2023 8:20 PM

PM Railfan
This pic shows that glass removed, and numbers still there. Obviously not 'cards'. Learn something every day!   (and by cards, another referrence would be like the sign you see at Wendys out front - advertising this months special burger. The Wendys icon above, and underneath changeable black letters [cards] on a white board.)

Depends, I would say.

A couple of the western roads, SP and UP come to mind, would sometimes have the train number or sometimes a preceeding X- in the number board which would call for a set of 'cards' to have on hand to insert the proper numbers.

This Rio Grande F unit shows one such numeral out of kilter:

 Rio Grande E9 and Booster at CRM by Dan Gaken, on Flickr

I know some number boards in the E and F noses were one piece (I used to have the NYC 4011 board in my collection) yet others seemed to be an assembly of separate numbers.

 EMD E9A Nose by Robert Buettner, on Flickr

I've also seen some cases where they are painted directly on the back of the glass so I imagine it was up to the whim of the RFE or engineering department to make the call. I imagine EMD had a few options in their ordering books regarding number board types.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by mvlandsw on Friday, March 31, 2023 10:00 PM

At some point the glass became plexiglas or some other form of plastic.

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Posted by PM Railfan on Friday, March 31, 2023 10:29 PM

Ed)

 

You said-

".... would sometimes have the train number or sometimes a preceeding X- in the number board which would call for a set of 'cards' to have on hand to insert the proper numbers."

 

This I am aware of, however, it brings up the question.... "who holds the cards"? Say a train displaying the train number reaches a point at which it is either turned, split, or combined. Thus neccessitating a new 'train number'. 

If this loco (or train) is not at a normal servicing area, where would these cards be kept? On the loco or at the station of new train designation?

Normally, numbering is done like you said according to the RFE, or that dept., yet still during servicing/repainting etc. But on the fly?  

 

 

(Now that Ive totally stolen your lifting lug thread, let this be a lesson to you NOT to post such fascinatingly inquisitive pictures where I might see them! Laugh )

 

Clear Ahead!

Douglas

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, April 1, 2023 12:19 AM

PM Railfan
This I am aware of, however, it brings up the question.... "who holds the cards"? Say a train displaying the train number reaches a point at which it is either turned, split, or combined. Thus neccessitating a new 'train number'.

 

From Don Strack's excellent Utah Rails site:

https://utahrails.net/up/up-loco-features.php#trainindicators

 

Train Indicators

(September 18, 2017; Dick Harley email)

Number Boards vs. Indicators -- In the steam era, those number displaying devices were called "train number indicators", "train indicators", or simply "indicators" - NOT "number boards". In the early 20th century, their use was governed by part of Rule 19. But after 1940, those rules became Rule 24 - Indicators.

From the 1919 rule book:

19 (C). A train equipped with train indicators must not leave its initial station without the indication properly displayed. When the identity of a train is changed, the indicators must be changed to correspond. Before making such change, the safety of other trains must be fully considered.

COMMON STANDARD-SINGLE ROW-INDICATOR.
2 for Train No. 2.
1-2 for First 2.
X-162 for Extra 162.

From the 1946 rule book:

INDICATORS

24. A train with engine equipped for display of indicators, must not leave its initial station without the train number being properly displayed in the indicators.

Helper engine will also display indicators when it is the lead engine or coupled to the lead engine, but train number must not be displayed until engine has been coupled onto train.

When number of train is changed, indicators must be changed to correspond. Before making such change, movement of other trains must be safeguarded.

When an engine is cut out of a train, train number must be removed promptly from indicators.

COMMON STANDARD-SINGLE ROW-INDICATOR.
2 for Train No. 2.
1-2 for First 2.
X-162 for Extra 162.

Research suggests that the term "number board" did not come into common use until the diesel era. In mid-1965, rules were changed so that train numbers were no longer displayed in indicators. At that time, only the engine number was displayed and that did not need to be changed. So a single 'board' displayed the whole engine number and was not easily changeable. All road diesels built before 1965 had 5-digit individually changeable indicators.

(Read more about number boards on diesel locomotives)

There's probably room in the locomotive seat box for numbers. Diesel nose, perhaps a storage box? Good question. We need a UP or SP expert here.

https://unionpacificdrawingtrivia.com/2014/10/30/i-did-not-know-that/

 

Steal away, I don't mind when a thread goes sideways, it opens up new avenues of discussion Yes

Plastic: Yes, I have a few Fiberglas® number boards from Penn Central engines.

Good luck, Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, April 1, 2023 7:49 AM

So which roads used these as "train indicators" rather than number boards?

To my knowledge it was not an east coast thing at all?

Sheldon

    

DrW
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Posted by DrW on Saturday, April 1, 2023 4:07 PM

The "train indicators" versus "number board" issue is definitely railroad-specific. The Santa Fe showed the engine number on steam and diesel locomotives. Apparently, the UP handled it differently. An interesting tidbit from the Utah Rails web site cited by Ed:

"For trains operating over AT&SF tracks over Cajon Summit, between Daggett and Riverside, California, Union Pacific trains showed the locomotive number in their number boards, in accordance with AT&SF operating practice."

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