AEP528 How did Eastern railroads identify multiple sections of a train? Was it just by the flags and the fact that they followed each other?
How did Eastern railroads identify multiple sections of a train? Was it just by the flags and the fact that they followed each other?
Another aspect of this. While the PRR and NYC ran some long passenger trains and sometimes multiple sections, the B&O passenger trains tended to be shorter, and sometimes did run in sections, but often could just be expanded with more cars and more power.
The bulk of B&O name trains were seldom more than 8-10 cars, especially trains crossing the mountains. The B&O had the short but steep route to Chicago and St Louis as opposed to the long flat route.....
It would make sense that out west, greater distances between towns, would make schedules less reliable, and communication failures more common.
We know that each railroad adapted to their conditions - this topic is no different.
Sheldon
From my limited understanding of operations in the west, CTC was not common on the long routes.
In the east, most of the major mainlines of major carriers were CTC controlled. And where not CTC controlled, they had frequent tower operators and station agents all linked to each other with telegraph or telephone.
These station and tower personnel kept track as each train passed their location, wrote it down, and communicated it up and down the line.
Typically block signals between control points were (and still are) only a mile or two apart to allow trains to follow each other as close as possible.
Stations and control points (interlockings with "absolute" signals) are relatively frequent compared to crossing some of the vast territory in the west. Dispatchers, Agents or tower personnel could hold trains at these control points in the event of a delay or problem with a different train.
Here is a historical example, a 1947 PRR timetable for the Perryville, MD station shows a train every 13 minutes thru most of the 24 hour period. OK that is both directions of what was mostly (except for the nearby Susquehanna River bridge) a 4 track mainline, but that is a lot of trains.
The east also had more double track and more frequent sidings on single track, again, managed by agents, dispatchers and tower operators.
They knew when trains were coming and if a train was late or had a problem they were likely to be informed relatively quickly.
For example, on both the B&O and the PRR which pass by where I live here in Havre de Grace MD, three stations were within a 12 mile stretch of track, Aberdeen, Havre de Grace, and Perryville. Pretty hard to loose a train and not have a real good idea where to look.
I only know one Eastern railroad that routinely ran in multiple sections (the New York Central) and they used only the flags to denominate a section was following. They had the somewhat weird practice of running the sections so close to each other, as if parts of one very long train, that people sitting on the observation car platform could clearly make out the plume from the feedwater heater vent of the following locomotive (the account I heard thought it was the dynamo exhaust and likened it to 'Lochinvar's plume', which was charming but missed the technical boat).
According to what I have read, the sections worked a peculiar way. The 'advertised' time went from the first section to leave to the last section to arrive, so the actual time of arrival of the first section was somewhat quicker than 'the advertised'. Ed will have much better material to quote exactly (from The Flight of the Century and other books) how this was done. He will also know practice on the PRR (which was the other railroad that ran some trains in sections) and on other roads that at peak times, like holidays (or due to wartime conditions) ran multiple sections to accommodate the ticketed demand.
Note that the flag system eliminated any need to define '1st 26, 2nd 26" and the exact number of sections. If you saw a flag, there was another section coming. And in not too much time...
PM RailfanIf railroads 'didn't' use them for train indicator numbers...... they can't be called train number indicators because they weren't used as such. Why call them something they weren't?
In the comparatively few instances where the train was indicated somewhere on the equipment, it was an alphanumeric name... I hear Ed starting to grumble about a certain socially-prominent Midwestern train, but I believe that always had either "The" or some name like 'Flambeau' prepended to the number.
Train indicator boards were always variable and -- I thought -- only had the engine number in them when prepended with an X as the only logical way to denominate an extra train operating under power. As Lucy said to Charlie, "that doesn't count".
(Many Eastern passenger cars did sport racks with replaceable characters in them... to denominate what Pullman car went with what accommodation ticket. I can't offhand remember any use of this to indicate the operating train number, but 'there's likely a prototype for everything'...
It just hit me,
If railroads 'didnt' use them for train indicator numbers...... they cant be called train number indicators because they werent used as such. Why call them something they werent?
(Im still looking because I have the strongest feeling Ive seen an east coast line do this.)
Clear Ahead!
Douglas
Overmod Interestingly, to my very limited knowledge ATSF, which I believe ran trains far faster than SP, didn't use train number display at all on their streamliner power; if they did, let's see Ed's discussion of what form it took.
Interestingly, to my very limited knowledge ATSF, which I believe ran trains far faster than SP, didn't use train number display at all on their streamliner power; if they did, let's see Ed's discussion of what form it took.
The Santa Fe always had the engine number displayed. On their diesel locomotives, there was no provision to change the numbers.
I cannot remember or think of any Eastern railroad that dispatched trains in a way that required anyone to read 'train numbers' off boards, illuminated or otherwise, rather than the obvious and simple method of using the assigned locomotive for a particular stage as the 'number' that would be watched. In part this may be related to relatively short distances to be covered, or better control of passenger vs. freight traffic so something coming at an utterly unexpected time in the middle of nowhere could be easily tagged by looking at prominent boards rather than having to be 'deconvolved' by whatever locomotive type happened to be leading at the time.
Returning to the actual topic: I'd like to know how these were normally deployed when used. Presumably some tool like a wrecking or lining bar was inserted to pull it out and up, and then hold it up while the lifting cable arrangement was cross-pinned or bolted across the eye or hooks were engaged.
PM Railfan Well thats the question - where did they keep the cards? There is only two points to keep them, starting point and turning point. Unlike todays goobers, back then folks kept better track of things. Locos go everywhere, stations never move. Thus keeping better track of things like these cards. I would imagine only a few complete sets of numbers would be needed. A set here, a set there. I would think they would be interchangable. Im pretty sure theyd have that much forthought if they were already making other locomotive parts interchangable. Tis a question we would really need an ole hogger to answer. Im pretty sure eastern railroads did this too, not just the west. It may be my bad memory playing tricks on me but i seem to recall seeing a photo of a C&O Kanawha flying the number '41' on her boards when it should be a 2700 series number. For the life of me I will never find the picture. Its either in a C&OHS Newsletter of one of Alvin Stauffer/Eugene Huddleston books. I seem to recall the eastern railroads did this practice too. I wish my buddy Joe was still alive, he could answer this in a flash! Douglas
Well thats the question - where did they keep the cards?
There is only two points to keep them, starting point and turning point. Unlike todays goobers, back then folks kept better track of things. Locos go everywhere, stations never move. Thus keeping better track of things like these cards.
I would imagine only a few complete sets of numbers would be needed. A set here, a set there.
I would think they would be interchangable. Im pretty sure theyd have that much forthought if they were already making other locomotive parts interchangable.
Tis a question we would really need an ole hogger to answer.
Im pretty sure eastern railroads did this too, not just the west.
It may be my bad memory playing tricks on me but i seem to recall seeing a photo of a C&O Kanawha flying the number '41' on her boards when it should be a 2700 series number. For the life of me I will never find the picture. Its either in a C&OHS Newsletter of one of Alvin Stauffer/Eugene Huddleston books.
I seem to recall the eastern railroads did this practice too. I wish my buddy Joe was still alive, he could answer this in a flash!
Well, I googled it, I searched photos of lots of roads east of the Mississippi, I looked thru books I have on east coast roads - not one indication of any east coast roads doing anything like that, steam or diesel.
I model B&O, C&O and WESTERN MARYLAND, I have lots of PRR modeler friends, and know lots of people who know way more about some of these specific roads than I do - never heard anybody talk about here in the east.
I will wait to be proven wrong, but I have rather large library on the roads I model, I think I would have noticed something in 55 years......
Been going to the B&O Museum since I was a child, still get there every year or so. Been going to the Railroad Muesum of Pennsylvanna since it opened, been to Strasburg probably 40 times in the last 65 years.
Seems to me I would have noticed something, or it would have been talked about somewhere?
AND, I will admit, dispite my general interest in trains, I have never spent any real time out west, and my knowledge of roads like the UP, SP, ATSF, etc, is pretty limited.
The little time I have spent out west did not motivate me to return.....
But I could be wrong.....
So now that I have done a little research on this........
Since I never gave it any attention before.....
Apparently SP patented their train number housing, and at least on the steam locos they all used the same cards.
Still seems it would make more sense to just keep a set of cards with the loco.
I can only find mention of one other railroad doing this beyond the UP and SP - the Alaska RR?
Thanks for the interesting discussion, I'm on to other things since this has no bearing on my modeling.
PM Railfan Ed) Number Cards I was thinking Station Master/Agent would hold the cards. This being a double check feature for the railroad as more than one person involved (SM/A and crew) would insure its done at change point. Plus that keeps the cards safe and in a single gaurded place incase the regular passenger loco got maintenanced out and a non regular loco got swapped in. OOOOPs! "Wheres the cards? Theres nothing but Model railroaders and Trains in the seatbox!" We need more than a couple experts round here! Highball! Douglas
Ed)
Number Cards
I was thinking Station Master/Agent would hold the cards. This being a double check feature for the railroad as more than one person involved (SM/A and crew) would insure its done at change point.
Plus that keeps the cards safe and in a single gaurded place incase the regular passenger loco got maintenanced out and a non regular loco got swapped in. OOOOPs!
"Wheres the cards? Theres nothing but Model railroaders and Trains in the seatbox!"
We need more than a couple experts round here!
Highball!
That would seem to require an enless number cards at different locations?
And I highly doubt that every brand and model of loco would use the exact same size/design of card.
How would they get back to the station agent?
In my mind the only logisticly practical thing would be to keep them on the locomotive.
But again, it is an operational feature I am not familiar with since the roads I model and are familiar with did not do this.
Not being a UP, SP or ATSF modeler, I was unaware of this, thanks.
Can't say it was not done in the east, but I have never noticed it. I model B&O, C&O and WESTERN MARYLAND.
The "train indicators" versus "number board" issue is definitely railroad-specific. The Santa Fe showed the engine number on steam and diesel locomotives. Apparently, the UP handled it differently. An interesting tidbit from the Utah Rails web site cited by Ed:
"For trains operating over AT&SF tracks over Cajon Summit, between Daggett and Riverside, California, Union Pacific trains showed the locomotive number in their number boards, in accordance with AT&SF operating practice."
So which roads used these as "train indicators" rather than number boards?
To my knowledge it was not an east coast thing at all?
PM RailfanThis I am aware of, however, it brings up the question.... "who holds the cards"? Say a train displaying the train number reaches a point at which it is either turned, split, or combined. Thus neccessitating a new 'train number'.
From Don Strack's excellent Utah Rails site:
https://utahrails.net/up/up-loco-features.php#trainindicators
(September 18, 2017; Dick Harley email)
Number Boards vs. Indicators -- In the steam era, those number displaying devices were called "train number indicators", "train indicators", or simply "indicators" - NOT "number boards". In the early 20th century, their use was governed by part of Rule 19. But after 1940, those rules became Rule 24 - Indicators.
From the 1919 rule book:
19 (C). A train equipped with train indicators must not leave its initial station without the indication properly displayed. When the identity of a train is changed, the indicators must be changed to correspond. Before making such change, the safety of other trains must be fully considered.
COMMON STANDARD-SINGLE ROW-INDICATOR.2 for Train No. 2.1-2 for First 2.X-162 for Extra 162.
From the 1946 rule book:
INDICATORS
24. A train with engine equipped for display of indicators, must not leave its initial station without the train number being properly displayed in the indicators.
Helper engine will also display indicators when it is the lead engine or coupled to the lead engine, but train number must not be displayed until engine has been coupled onto train.
When number of train is changed, indicators must be changed to correspond. Before making such change, movement of other trains must be safeguarded.
When an engine is cut out of a train, train number must be removed promptly from indicators.
Research suggests that the term "number board" did not come into common use until the diesel era. In mid-1965, rules were changed so that train numbers were no longer displayed in indicators. At that time, only the engine number was displayed and that did not need to be changed. So a single 'board' displayed the whole engine number and was not easily changeable. All road diesels built before 1965 had 5-digit individually changeable indicators.
(Read more about number boards on diesel locomotives)
There's probably room in the locomotive seat box for numbers. Diesel nose, perhaps a storage box? Good question. We need a UP or SP expert here.
https://unionpacificdrawingtrivia.com/2014/10/30/i-did-not-know-that/
Steal away, I don't mind when a thread goes sideways, it opens up new avenues of discussion
Plastic: Yes, I have a few Fiberglas® number boards from Penn Central engines.
Good luck, Ed
You said-
".... would sometimes have the train number or sometimes a preceeding X- in the number board which would call for a set of 'cards' to have on hand to insert the proper numbers."
This I am aware of, however, it brings up the question.... "who holds the cards"? Say a train displaying the train number reaches a point at which it is either turned, split, or combined. Thus neccessitating a new 'train number'.
If this loco (or train) is not at a normal servicing area, where would these cards be kept? On the loco or at the station of new train designation?
Normally, numbering is done like you said according to the RFE, or that dept., yet still during servicing/repainting etc. But on the fly?
(Now that Ive totally stolen your lifting lug thread, let this be a lesson to you NOT to post such fascinatingly inquisitive pictures where I might see them! )
At some point the glass became plexiglas or some other form of plastic.
PM RailfanThis pic shows that glass removed, and numbers still there. Obviously not 'cards'. Learn something every day! (and by cards, another referrence would be like the sign you see at Wendys out front - advertising this months special burger. The Wendys icon above, and underneath changeable black letters [cards] on a white board.)
Depends, I would say.
A couple of the western roads, SP and UP come to mind, would sometimes have the train number or sometimes a preceeding X- in the number board which would call for a set of 'cards' to have on hand to insert the proper numbers.
This Rio Grande F unit shows one such numeral out of kilter:
Rio Grande E9 and Booster at CRM by Dan Gaken, on Flickr
I know some number boards in the E and F noses were one piece (I used to have the NYC 4011 board in my collection) yet others seemed to be an assembly of separate numbers.
EMD E9A Nose by Robert Buettner, on Flickr
I've also seen some cases where they are painted directly on the back of the glass so I imagine it was up to the whim of the RFE or engineering department to make the call. I imagine EMD had a few options in their ordering books regarding number board types.
Cheers, Ed
Something else about that last E8 pic (prep for painting).
I always presumed the numbers were 'number cards' placed on the backside of the protecting glass. Kinda similar to the way we decal our numbers. Allowing only the light to pass through the 'number', not around it. But not permanant like our decals - changeable.
This pic shows that glass removed, and numbers still there. Obviously not 'cards'. Learn something every day!
(and by cards, another referrence would be like the sign you see at Wendys out front - advertising this months special burger. The Wendys icon above, and underneath changeable black letters [cards] on a white board.)
gmpullmanToo bad the resolution of the photo doesn't allow for a closer look.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I recently came across a photo of this UP E while getting prepped for paint and you can see the lifting lug inside its pocket. Looks like about a 1½" thick steel lug in there that, presumably, can be swung outward and upward to engage a lifting arm off a spreader beam from a hoist.
Painting UP 942, Orange Empire Ry Museum -- Part 1 -- 6 photos by Marty Bernard, on Flickr
Too bad the resolution of the photo doesn't allow for a closer look.
Another Big Lift!
Union Pacific Railroad - UP gas turbine electric locomotive Nr. 75 - Salt Lake City Workshop, Utah by Historical Railway Images, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
If you blow up the picture of the model at the B&O museum, you can see a large round ring projecting outside the car body. It would apear that this lifting lug was some sort of retractable lug, either by rotating out and up, or some similar design that would put the actual connection and lifting cable safely outside the car body allowing a proper connection and straight vertical pull.
maxmanI don't think something like an eye bolt would work. An eye bolt has all of its strength when pulled straight. It is at its weakest when pulled horizontally, parallel to the surface into which it is screwed.
PM RailfanThanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it.
I'm all eyes!
I don't imagine the side lifting lugs are much help in the case of derailments. One of the reasons the PRR and Santa Fe elected for the nose eyes, I suspect.
I came across an interesting photo of an E7 in trouble showing the use of an attachment point that probably isn't in the EMD standard parctices book:
SAL, Raleigh, North Carolina, 1961 by Center for Railroad Photography & Art, on Flickr
I see several styles of "jacking pads" and these are frequently placed on locomotives, passenger cars and some freight cars. Some jacking pads seem to have additional features that allow a wire rope sling to be used for lifting.
Others seem to have features that permit the long arms of a spreader bar such as would be found in larger back shops.
I recall being in the NYC's Collinwood shop and watching a locomotive being lifted over the top of other engines in the shop. It was a quick operation for the crane operator and the machinists on the floor to place the arms to make the lift. None of the NYC Es or Fs had any extra lifting lugs other than the jacking pads along the side bolster.
Levitation by Kevin Cavanaugh, on Flickr
Thanks for all the responses, Ed
PM Railfan Thanks Bear for posting the drawing. I hope Ed sees it. JaBear wrote the following post 13 hours ago: "Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!" Oh my yes, the B&O Museum is an all day adventure. Every minute of it will be well spent I can assure you!
JaBear wrote the following post 13 hours ago:
"Sheldon, the B&O Museum appears to be the type of establishment I’d spend far too much time in, yet still not see it all!!!"
Being a life long Maryland resident, most of it within a 45 minute drive to Baltimore, and having a life long connection to the model train hobby and trains in general, I have been going there since I was a child.
I have personally known a number of people who worked at the museum, one fellow modeler friend from the past is the son of the gentleman who built the original HO display layout at the museum back in the lat 50's. Now replaced by a layout also built by several people I know.
It is literally the birthplace of railroading in the US. The original building built as the first station and offices of the B&O is part part of the museum.
Everyone with an interest in trains should see this collection.
I even still have a little information booklet from one of my earliest vists, likely about 1965.
It is filled with some of the most important railroad artifacts in North America.
Example - B&O USRA 2-8-2 #4500 - the very first USRA locomotive built.
When they say lifting lug I think of something permanent, like those nose mounted things.
I don't think something like an eye bolt would work. An eye bolt has all of its strength when pulled straight. It is at its weakest when pulled horizontally, parallel to the surface into which it is screwed.