MidlandMikeAccording to Middleton, the CUT 2-C+C-2 was the first of that wheel arrangement. It was followed by the New Haven EP-3 in AC.
You're right. For some reason I was mistaken that the EP-3 predated the P-1a which were coming out of the works in August of 1929, EP-3s in 1931.
Here's a look under the hood of a P-1a:
P-1a_General Apparatus by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
Glad to help!
If you look, there's a white line painted through the engine's number. I don't know for sure, but I assume that means the loco has been taken off the roster, for sale or scrap.
Aaron
AutonerdThis is a soft-bound book of B&W photos that is pretty affordable -- a friend gave me his copy; he'd written in a note about himself in one of the photos (last day of operation on the Putnam division). When he died, I gave his copy to his daughter and bought my own,
Pray, what means "white-lined"? I reckon it means decomissioned, or marked for some scrap-bound doom?
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Found it! Or at least a slightly cropped version of it (in B&W -- that one looks colorized).
It's in "Ed Nowak's New York Central" by Ed Nowak with Karl Zimmerman. Colinwood, Ohio, July 10, 1952. (Ed Nowak was NYC's official company photographer.) The accompanying paragraph says:
"The panoramic view from the coaling tower at Collinwood Yard, near Cleveland, shows a power mixture indicating that the diesel era is well underway. The Pacific in the right foreground has been white-lined, and--most in the rigid back-to-back pairings that typefied the early years of dieselization--the hordes of invading F7s are numerically superior. The Fs wear the 'lightning stripes' and red oval paint scheme that had become the standard." (The rest of the para refers to an FT photo on the facing page.)
This is a soft-bound book of B&W photos that is pretty affordable -- a friend gave me his copy; he'd written in a note about himself in one of the photos (last day of operation on the Putnam division). When he died, I gave his copy to his daughter and bought my own, I think for $20 or less. Given what you said above, Matt, I think you'd enjoy the book.
There's also a three-volume set of Ed Nowak's color photos -- not sure if this photo is among them. It'd take a while to search! :)
At first I thought this photo was in another (mostly-color) book I have and love called "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten" by HF Cavanaugh. It wasn't, but again, Matt, given what you said, I think you'd find this book very enjoyable -- lots of great photos of steam and vintage diesels (including some of Nowak's work). I just looked on Amazon and there are used copies in the $12-to-$30 range.
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Matt, I'm pretty sure that photo is in a book I have somewhere. I literally just saw it a couple of days ago. Give me a few minutes and I'll check.
BTW, digging all the great NYC photos!
I am in the Uk and come from south London where all I saw were Southern Electrics. Hence, I do US outline as most British railways are a mystery to me.
Long Haired DavidA.K.A. David Penningtonmain man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.http://www.gmrblog.co.ukfrom the UK
wjstixI may be wrong...
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Mark, thank you. I do love the personal stories. I can't think of anything more ironic than a train's bearings causing a railfan who is also an engineer to be late to a model railroading meetup. That's ironic in six directions. It's like 3-D chess.
I developed a liking for electrics after seeing the Milwaukee Road operations in 1969 and 72. I bought a pair of the plastic Virginian E-33's thinking I could run them behind diesels in non-electrified territory like they were being delivered to the Virginian.
I first visited Collinwood in the early 70's on an NMRA Cleveland convention tour. After the Conrail split I started running CSX trains to the yard from New Castle, Pa, over the Short Line from Parma and over the Chicago Line from Ashtabula. They were still calling the engine shop the "P1-A".
I met Chip Syme when I had a CSX train detour over Conrail from Youngstown to Pittsburgh. Chip was my pilot from Conway to Pittsburgh. We soon got to talking model railroading and I invited him to meet me at Don Cassler's B&O model railroad where I was planning to go after I finished my run at Connellsville. A hotbox detector ruined that plan and I was three hours late getting there but Chip had a good time with Don.
Mark Vinski
crossthedog... No way it would make any kind of sense on my SP&S/GN/NP layout but I would buy one anyway and say that in my world the GN and NP had leased or bought one from the NYC for use on a short stretch of electric line. Somewhere out here. In a tunnel maybe.
The NYC motors were DC which might have been a problem on GN's AC.
According to Middleton, the CUT 2-C+C-2 was the first of that wheel arrangement. It was followed by the New Haven EP-3 in AC. The PRR borrowed one of those NH motors for comparison tests, and went with that design for the GG-1.
crossthedogSomewhere out here. In a tunnel maybe.
I think it could be done
GN_Electrification by Edmund, on Flickr
Read all about it:
https://archive.org/stream/railwaylocomotiv41newy/railwaylocomotiv41newy#page/331/mode/1up
gmpullman crossthedog No way it would make any kind of sense on my SP&S/GN/NP layout... Yeah, how silly would that be GN_5004 by Edmund, on Flickr http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gn/gn5011mfa.jpg http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gn/gn5019dsa.jpg Cheers, Ed
crossthedog No way it would make any kind of sense on my SP&S/GN/NP layout...
Yeah, how silly would that be
GN_5004 by Edmund, on Flickr
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gn/gn5011mfa.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gn/gn5019dsa.jpg
crossthedogNo way it would make any kind of sense on my SP&S/GN/NP layout...
Thanks for that primer, Ed. I'm sort of feeling myself falling in love with these electrics. I see very few for sale on eBay and mostly brass and mostly too expensive for me. It would sure be nice if Atlas or one of the other mid-range manufacturers would produce one of these. No way it would make any kind of sense on my SP&S/GN/NP layout but I would buy one anyway and say that in my world the GN and NP had leased or bought one from the NYC for use on a short stretch of electric line. Somewhere out here. In a tunnel maybe.
crossthedogWhy do the front and rear pilot trucks on those electrics extend so far out from under the car body?
Short answer, stability and tracking at high speed. I believe this design was tried and perfected on the New Haven starting out with the EF-2 which has rather short pilot wheel assemblies. Later the EP-2 came along with slightly longer "reach" on those pilot trucks.
Each of the main driving truck assemblies are articulated and pinned between them so they do pivot around sharper curves. At higher track speeds this "flexibility" can lead to hunting, or side-to-side thrust (this was especially true on jointed rail). The P5 design was also somewhat limited in that the same lateral motion problems appeared at higher speeds and this was unacceptable for passenger service.
The PRR set up a section of test track for studying several electric locomotive designs. I'll have to do some digging but it was one of the GG1 forerunners, I believe the L5, shown below, that had a serious problem of side-to-side imbalance that became apparent at speeds over forty or so. Considerable track damage was also a result and those longer pilot trucks helped mitigate that, again, mostly apparent at higher speeds.
PRR_L5 by Edmund, on Flickr
wrench567The CUT motors look like someone put a P5a boxcab on a GG1 underframe and trucks.
Agree... The C.U.T. motors predate the GG1 by about six years. Still there are similarities and that 2-C+C-2 arrangement was a successful design.
CUT ad merge by Edmund, on Flickr
NYC_motor_P1a by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
wjstix I may be wrong, but it seems to me the NYC kept steam going in the western end (Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) longer than in the east? Think I saw that B&A was all diesel by like 1952 for example. I know I bought a video/DVD on the NYC where I was surprised to see a J-3 pulling a train of stainless steel cars between Cincinnati and Chicago in like 1956.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me the NYC kept steam going in the western end (Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) longer than in the east? Think I saw that B&A was all diesel by like 1952 for example. I know I bought a video/DVD on the NYC where I was surprised to see a J-3 pulling a train of stainless steel cars between Cincinnati and Chicago in like 1956.
Might have been the James Whitcomb Riley. I read that is where the streamlined Hudsons for the 1941 Empire State Express finished their service life. That train also used non-streamlined Hudsons. Whatever was available. Here are a few pictures I've found of the steam powered Riley.
crossthedogThis thread keeps being interesting and educational.
And before the internet, and Google, and Forums like this, this is the sort of question that could be nearly impossible to research and track down, even assuming you could find someone to ask the question of! The information was all there the photos were all taken -- but they were impossibly dispersed and nobody could put it all together. The rise of railroad historical societies in the 1960s-70s helped, but even they could be stymied in the pre internet era.
Dave Nelson.
This thread keeps being interesting and educational. So here's a question that keeps occurring to me. Why do the front and rear pilot trucks on those electrics extend so far out from under the car body? And what are those extra trucks for, anyway? It looks like the platforms above them are made to swivel sharply, but what is the purpose of those articulated front and back sections? Okay, three questions.
Wouldn't have been unusual for a railroad to congregate all it's remaining steam in one area / division so they could eliminate steam facilities (coaling towers, water towers etc.) in other areas. Kinda like how in the 1980s the C&NW assigned all their Alco diesels to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
The CUT motors look like someone put a P5a boxcab on a GG1 underframe and trucks. Sadly I grew up on the west side and never got a chance to ride behind one. They would have been long gone by the time I would have noticed one.
Pete.
crossthedog My brother often digs around on the interwebs to find pictures of trains to send me. This is a way we have managed to stay close over many kinds of distance, since we have had railfanning and model railroading in common since we were kids (that's us in my avatar photo, though you can hardly make us out). Often he doesn't have time or remember to remark where he found a photo or the details about it. Today he sent me this photo, which I absolutely love: It has everything I love in it. Big steam. F-units. Even what looks like an ALCO switcher. We started musing over where and when this might be. It's obviously a New York Central operation. I know there are several NYC modelers here on the forum, and I wonder what any of you might tell us about this photo. I'm guessing late '40s. But there's only one diesel switcher in this whole yard. Is the NYC using some of their steamers for yard duty at this time? Does anyone know where this was taken? Is it a famous photo that I could find in higher res and make a print out of? What can we know of this image?
My brother often digs around on the interwebs to find pictures of trains to send me. This is a way we have managed to stay close over many kinds of distance, since we have had railfanning and model railroading in common since we were kids (that's us in my avatar photo, though you can hardly make us out). Often he doesn't have time or remember to remark where he found a photo or the details about it. Today he sent me this photo, which I absolutely love:
It has everything I love in it. Big steam. F-units. Even what looks like an ALCO switcher. We started musing over where and when this might be. It's obviously a New York Central operation.
I know there are several NYC modelers here on the forum, and I wonder what any of you might tell us about this photo. I'm guessing late '40s. But there's only one diesel switcher in this whole yard. Is the NYC using some of their steamers for yard duty at this time? Does anyone know where this was taken? Is it a famous photo that I could find in higher res and make a print out of?
What can we know of this image?
I love that photo because it looks a lot like the engine terminal at my main yard of my layout, which is a fictional subsidiary of the NYC. A mix of late steam and first generation diesels, mostly Es and Fs. My switchers are EMD SW7s.
I'm guessing either late 1940s or early 1950s. Sadly, the Hudsons were all scrapped by 1957. The only left over is the tender from subsidiary Toronto, Hamilton, and Buffalo #502 which was converted to a steam generator car and now resides at Steamtown in Scranton.
I gather some of them lasted until 1957, though I think, for no good reason, that there are too many steam locomotives in the photo for it to be taken at that late a date.
crossthedogHey Ed! Look at this...
That's a treasure! I love electric locomotives of all kinds. I am so thankful that I got a chance to ride behind the old C.U.T. electrics in the New York area before they were scrapped.
Once you "feel" their presence and power plus graceful speed you have a life-long appreciation for their engineering.
Your model looks quite like the old New York Central "T-Motor":
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/rare-new-york-central-electric-locomotives-still-threatened/
Thanks for sharing, Matt!
gmpullmanThis was the east end of the Cleveland Union Terminal electric operation that ran until 1953 or so. CUT_Collinwood_209 by Edmund, on Flickr
CUT_Collinwood_209 by Edmund, on Flickr
It's a model that my Uncle Jim made for my dad when my dad was a kid. Jim was the oldest of six kids, 14 years older than my dad, who was the youngest. I always thought it was a trolley, but lately I've come to understand it was an electric locomotive. It looks a lot like your Cleveland Union Terminal unit!
crossthedogAnd I was able to identify the YMCA building because it's the only large building NE of the bridge that appears in the 1952, 1956, and 1970 datasets but is suddenly gone in the 1980 photo.
Here's exactly how it looked during the years I visited Collinwood:
Collinwood Railroad YMCA by Edmund, on Flickr
Then around 1970 the "New" Penn-Central crew dorm was built. I played a lot of pinball in that building. There was a TV and game room plus a great cafeteria serving excellent meals:
Collinwood Penn Central YMCA 1971 by Edmund, on Flickr
Mysteriously, once the new dorm was built the big, old YMCA burned to the ground That thing went up like a tinder box.
This photo below was taken from the exact landing on that stairway that I called my "RR home" for so many years. From this vantage point I could look behind me (to west) and see under the 152nd St bridge to all the trackage toward Cleveland as well.
Collinwood_shanty by Edmund, on Flickr
On the other side of the bridge the roundhouse had already been torn down but I remember the turntable still working:
Collinwood_roundhouse by Edmund, on Flickr
For diesel fuel there was a pair of tenders from NYC Mohawks sinking in the mud on a siding until an actual storage tank was built in the mid-'70s.
I know a fellow that has a few photos on his site. I'll see if I can find them.
Here's a few stories from Chip about the YMCA:
http://ohiorr.railfan.net/coll.html
gmpullman My dad would bring me here several days a week during nice weather and we would stand for hours on a wooden stairway on the far side of the bridge (East 152nd St.) and that's where, at about age eight, one of the engineers of a switcher hollered to me "Hey kid, you wanna ride a train?" I was down those stairs and on that engine in a flash (it was an ex-NY,O & W NW2 #9512) he let me "run" the engine from one end of the yard to the other. This is the view from the landing of those wooden steps: Collinwood_shop by Edmund, on Flickr In the top-right distance of your photo is the old crew YMCA that I've walked past many times: getimage by Edmund, on Flickr After the Penn-Central built a new crew dormitory in 1970 the old wooden YMCA mysteriously burned to the ground
My dad would bring me here several days a week during nice weather and we would stand for hours on a wooden stairway on the far side of the bridge (East 152nd St.) and that's where, at about age eight, one of the engineers of a switcher hollered to me "Hey kid, you wanna ride a train?" I was down those stairs and on that engine in a flash (it was an ex-NY,O & W NW2 #9512) he let me "run" the engine from one end of the yard to the other.
This is the view from the landing of those wooden steps:
Collinwood_shop by Edmund, on Flickr
In the top-right distance of your photo is the old crew YMCA that I've walked past many times:
getimage by Edmund, on Flickr
After the Penn-Central built a new crew dormitory in 1970 the old wooden YMCA mysteriously burned to the ground
My brother and I have been using all these photos you and Bear and others linked to and posted, to sight along the lines of various tracks to determine that the original photo he sent me had to have been shot from high on the stairway of the coaling tower. What fun you've provided. Thanks very much.
I'm so glad I asked. :)
Here's the P-1a Shed then:
P-1a Shed-west by Edmund, on Flickr
and now:
P1A Shop by Todd Dillon, on Flickr
The Cleveland Union Terminal "Motors" then:
CUT_1050crop by Edmund, on Flickr
And much later (now classed P-2b)
Penn-Central P-2b 4641 by Edmund, on Flickr
Sadly, none were saved.
Glad I clicked on this thread! I grew up on Long Island, NY, with nothing but electric commuter rail. This thread has shown us all another side of railroading we never really thought about. Thanks, guys.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.