Hello all,
so this goes out to all the train historians. As I'm researching and trying to learn prior to building my layout. I have a Santa Fe Northern and looking to get a CB&Q hudson. If I want to try and build something semi historical. Would there have been a place where these two would have met up to connect passenger service? And please educate me how this would have happened as well say if you were traveling from Chicago to San Diego. Would the passenger cars go all the way from Chicago to San Diego and say the Burlington engine disconnect and Santa Fe connect say in CO somewhere for the remainder of the trip. Or would you get off as a passenger and get on a new passenger car with Santa Fe? Did these two RR cross paths say somewhere in the day in CO?
thanks again all. This sure has been fun learning from you all
The only place they met in Colorado was in Denver, and the Santa Fe from Denver connected with their mainline at LaJunta. A Chicago-LA trip via Denver would not have been practical. Burlington's subsidiary C&S had the joint line with the Santa Fe from Denver to Pueblo, and crossed the AT&SF at several points on the way to Galveston, TX. Burlington had a joint train with the Alton(?) from St. Louis to KC which I suppose could have connected with the Santa Fe.
magnum3I have a Santa Fe Northern and looking to get a CB&Q hudson. If I want to try and build something semi historical. Would there have been a place where these two would have met up to connect passenger service? And please educate me how this would have happened as well say if you were traveling from Chicago to San Diego.
Chicago to San Diego would have been an all ATSF route with no CB&Q at all. The ATSF ran from Chicago to Los Angeles and then to San Diego.
The two would have "touched" at Dever as mentioned and the CB&Q subsidiary of the Ft Worth and Denver RR would have touched the ATSF at FT Worth and Houston. The CRIP and the FWD had a "Joint Texas Division" from Ft Worth to Houston. Once again, more or less parallel routes that didn't "connect".
Both the CB&Q and the ATSF served Chicago, but didn't really connect at Chicago. Being more or less parallel railroads, running Chicago west, there wasn't much connecting between the two on passenger service.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
magnum3Would the passenger cars go all the way from Chicago to San Diego and say the Burlington engine disconnect and Santa Fe connect...
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
The two railroads also met and crossed in Galesburg IL (one near downtown near what is now the Peck Park railfanning area, the other further west at Cameron IL) but not in a way that would have matched up a CB&Q Hudson with an ATSF Northern or any other Santa Fe passenger locomotives (I do believe that most Santa Fe passenger trains in Illinois were headed by Hudsons not Northerns, and the Santa Fe passenger trains changed engines en route to accomplish this. That might have been done at Kansas City? If it isn't too late maybe get a Santa Fe Hudson instead and model that swapping out of power for east and west bounds).
So maybe someone somewhere has a photo showing a Santa Fe Hudson and CB&Q Hudson in the same photo in or near Galesburg-- but not on the same tracks.
The only exception I could imagine would be a detour due to spring flooding and since both railroads had to cross the Mississippi (the Santa Fe at Fort Madison, the "Q" at Quincy and at Burlington) I suppose in steam days that MIGHT have happened. But that is a rather slender basis for regular operating practices although flooding detours can be an interesting thing to add to the mix now and then. Even so, the interchange back in those days between the two railroads was pretty rickety even for freight and with Chicago so close there was not much call for interchange between the two railroads, but there was some. And again it would not have involved ATSF Northerns as a rule
Both railroads maintained their own passenger depots in Galesburg. Even in the Amtrak era, Galesburg was distinctive for a city of its relatively modest size because it had two Amtrak depots, which at least made it interesting for railfans.
Things changed fast when the BN and ATSF combined to form BNSF. NOw there is an extensive and much used "interchange" between the former Santa Fe and former BN, at Cameron IL not far from the over/under crossing which is still a popular railfan location.
This is kind of OT to the original posting but forgetting for the moment the desire to combine locomotives from both railroads, Galesburg should not be overlooked if one wanted to model CB&Q and Santa Fe on the same layout and be realistic about it.
Dave Nelson
Thank you all. And thank you Dave. That is a lot of great information. So fascinating for sure. I'm wondering if I just either sell my Santa Fe Northern then. I grew up in Brookfield IL. So there is a lot of history for me around the Burlington and my grandfather living in Berwyn. I would like to keep to that RR line.
What would have ran in the steam era along that line berwyn, Brookfield? Did they run passenger service on whats the metra line today?
out of curiosity where would you have seen santa Fe northerns run? A big reason I picked it up the MTH 2903 is because it actually resides close to me at the IRM and my grandfather used to take me as a child to see it at the science and industry museum in Chicago. So some memories tied to that exact steam engine
magnum3out of curiosity where would you have seen santa Fe northerns run?
I have heard that the Hudsons were changed out for Northerns (going westbound) at both/either KC and LaJunta, I suppose depending of availability.
magnum3Would the passenger cars go all the way from Chicago to San Diego and say the Burlington engine disconnect and Santa Fe connect say in CO somewhere for the remainder of the trip. Or would you get off as a passenger and get on a new passenger car with Santa Fe?
CB&Q did partner with other railroads in the west kinda like you describe, but it wasn't with the Santa Fe. Santa Fe ran parallel to the Burlington and was a competitor. After WW2, the new California Zephyr ran from Chicago to Denver on the Burlington, then used the D&RGW and Western Pacific to reach San Francisco. As noted, Santa Fe had lines directly from Chicago to San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, so didn't need to work with another railroad like the Burlington did to reach those places.
Remember too that their top trains - the Burlington's Denver Zephyr and the Santa Fe Super Chief - were some of the first trains to be dieselized. My dad lived & worked in Galesburg IL in 1938 and remembered how people in the summer would walk to one station and then the other to see the new-fangled streamlined diesel trains come into town and then leave. The stations were only a few blocks apart, and the trains arrived about an hour apart from each other.
magnum3 out of curiosity where would you have seen santa Fe northerns run?
out of curiosity where would you have seen santa Fe northerns run?
According to the "ATSF Statement Showing Assignment of Steam Engines" in 1950 and 1953
https://sfrhms.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/loco_50_53.pdf
the 2900 class Northerns were assigned nearly exclusively to the Eastern and Panhandle Divisions; the 2903 specifically was assigned to the Panhandle Division (Texas/Oklahoma). The 3751 class could be found in the Eastern Division, but also in Colorado, Pecos, and Los Angeles.
JW
JW,
thank you so much That is some great information. I really appreciate all the help from you all
M