So, when this car was modified to include an express section, did it become a head-end car?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
That CRIP obs is not an RPO, it's a baggage express combine (note the sign "Railway Express Agency").
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My understanding is that in the post WWII era, railroads started to drop observation cars from all but their premier trains because of the added burden of turning them at the end of each trip. That would explain a surplus of obs cars but why would they want to convert one to a baggage express. Wouldn't that require them to turn the obs for the mail train just as was done for passenger cars or might they just run the obs backward on a mail train since there would be no need for passengers to move from one car to the next.
John-NYBW wjstix On the other hand, turning a combine in this situation would be virtually 100% not prototypical. The key phrase here is "in this situation". The combine being the sole passenger car, turning it seems unecessary. However, if a combine is a head end car in an ordinary passenger train, wouldn't it be turned so the passenger section is at the rear and not separated from the coaches and sleepers by the baggage/express section?
wjstix On the other hand, turning a combine in this situation would be virtually 100% not prototypical.
On the other hand, turning a combine in this situation would be virtually 100% not prototypical.
The key phrase here is "in this situation". The combine being the sole passenger car, turning it seems unecessary. However, if a combine is a head end car in an ordinary passenger train, wouldn't it be turned so the passenger section is at the rear and not separated from the coaches and sleepers by the baggage/express section?
I was searching for pictures of combines in actually service and there seems to be very few such pictures. Most of the pictures are either of museum pieces or models. I did come across this unusual observation combine on the Rock Island. Anybody know what the story is here?
RI 70, Topeka, KS., Richard R. Wallin, 7-23-61.jpg (950×511)
MidlandMike Interesting article in the new (Sept.) Model Railroader about a Santa Fe branch. A crewman who worked the prototype branch said that when the mixed came to a town where they had more than a few switching moves, the combine was spotted at the depot for unloading, moved out of the way during switching, then spotted back at the depot for loading.
Interesting article in the new (Sept.) Model Railroader about a Santa Fe branch. A crewman who worked the prototype branch said that when the mixed came to a town where they had more than a few switching moves, the combine was spotted at the depot for unloading, moved out of the way during switching, then spotted back at the depot for loading.
On my layout, there are two towns on the branch, one at the terminus and one about halfway up the branch. The town at the midpoint has four industries that might require switching but it would be unusual for all four to require service on any particular day, so switching there would be minimal. At the terminus, the freight cars would be dropped in the yard as the train enters town and the loco would then pull the combine down the street to the depot. Having the combine on the front of the train makes that move simpler and faster. After unloading passengers and express, the combine is then pushed out of the way and the loco does its pick ups and set outs. When the cars have been assembled for the return trip, the combine is pushed back to the depot and then the rest of the train is backed up to couple with it.
Sometimes you will see a passenger train with the combine turned so the baggage compartment is between the coach portion of the combine and the rest of the passenger cars. If its in the southern USA, pre-1960's that could be a "Jim Crow" arrangement, with the baggage compartment separating white and black seating on the train.
John-NYBW The key phrase here is "in this situation". The combine being the sole passenger car, turning it seems unecessary. However, if a combine is a head end car in an ordinary passenger train, wouldn't it be turned so the passenger section is at the rear and not separated from the coaches and sleepers by the baggage/express section?
Combination cars are generally used on low traffic lines/trains where there's not enough traffic demand to require a full car.
If you were running a train with a combine and a regular coach (because you needed a bit more rider capacity but not baggage), if you didn't turn anything, all it does is move the baggage section to the rear of the train instead of the front, and there's no rule for/against that.
Not really any reason to individually turn or switch around the cars. Just handle them as a set and turn (or not turn) them as a set, not one by one.
I mean we're talking about a minor branchline terminus here, you're not turning an overnight streamliner.
In the passenger terminal that makes up the train, you'd either turn the combine to be oriented to the other cars (and put the baggage section at a specific end), or simply place them in the correct order so that they align (and not worry about whether the baggage is on the front or rear of the train). But all the discussion has been about operations at the remote branch terminal, not the central hub, so you're not switching things around, just send the same set back.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
John-NYBWAll of that adds extra moves and extra time.
On the other hand if they have to switch the freight cars with air on them, that would take a lot more time than make one or two extra moves.
In addition, if it involves a grade, I don't think they would risk setting out the passenger car where it isn't flat.
Don't necessarily buy that since lots of railroads operated mixed trains with the passenger eqipment on the rear, which would mean they would have to leave the passenger car on the grade EVERY place they switched where there was a grade (which is more likely than not).
The bottom line is that you want to put the combine on the head end, you have found a prototype, you don't have to justify it. Go for it.
Running the combine right behind the engine is completely prototypical - and as I've noted, in areas where it got cold, it would be required during the cold weather months if the combine used steam heat. No way to get steam from the engine back to a passenger car when they're separated by standard (i.e., not equipped with steam lines) freight cars. However, an old combine with it's own coal burning Franklin stove could be at the front or rear of the train, as it didn't need the engine's steam to keep the passengers warm.
John-NYBWI have debated whether to turn the combine. There are small turntables at both ends of the branch to turn the loco so I could turn the combine if I choose to do so. Since it will usually be the only passenger car in the consist, I'm not sure that will be necessary.
On the other hand, turning a combine in this situation would be virtually 100% not prototypical. About the only cars ever turned were observation cars, where the observation platform needed to be on the back, or situations like New York Central trains along the 'Water Level Route' where corridor sleepers were turned so the side with the passengers faced the Hudson river whether going (timetable) east or west.
Remember, coaches or combines had some version of "walkover" seats - the seats could be turned (either the whole seat turned 180 degrees, or the back moved from one side to the other) so the seats always faced forward. On a model, you could make the seats be in pairs facing each other (like you'd see in a 12-1 Pullman car for example) so some passenger are facing forward and some facing back.
dehusman John-NYBW Furthermore, if a facing point spur is involved, the passenger car is going to be part of the move no matter which end of the train it is on because of the necessity of doing a runaround move. Not necessarily. When the train approaches the runaround they stop however many car lengths they need before they get to the switch. The cut off with teh car to be spotted and any car in front of it. Drag that up between the switches, run around the cars. Couple into the car to be spotted, pull it back to the switch into the industry. Work the industry. Put any pulls back with other cars on the runaround. Run around the cut, shove back to the rear of the train. Passenger car was never touched. Easy peasy.
John-NYBW Furthermore, if a facing point spur is involved, the passenger car is going to be part of the move no matter which end of the train it is on because of the necessity of doing a runaround move.
Not necessarily.
When the train approaches the runaround they stop however many car lengths they need before they get to the switch. The cut off with teh car to be spotted and any car in front of it. Drag that up between the switches, run around the cars. Couple into the car to be spotted, pull it back to the switch into the industry. Work the industry. Put any pulls back with other cars on the runaround. Run around the cut, shove back to the rear of the train.
Passenger car was never touched. Easy peasy.
All of that adds extra moves and extra time. In addition, if it involves a grade, I don't think they would risk setting out the passenger car where it isn't flat. That would certainly be the case at one of the towns the mixed train works on my layout.
I don't dispute that railroads would want to limit the amount of switching involving their passenger cars but it wouldn't be a hard fast rule. Other factors would enter into the decision. Passenger trains were often switched in route in the pre-Amtrak days, often in the middle of the night. Your claim that 99.999% of the time a passenger car on a mixed train would be on the rear seems rather dubious. Can you cite a source that would back that up?
What you are looking at in the pictures is probably the death throes of both passenger and freight service.
According to the 1928 ORG there was a sleeper from New York that made connections to Virginia Hot Springs via Covington, VA. It was on the PRR from New York and C&O No 5 from Washington, arriving Covington at 922 pm. It left Covington on No 305 at 925pm and arrived Hot Springs at 1045 pm. It left the next day at 745 pm on No 302, which arrived Covington at 905 pm to make connection with No 4 that took the car back to New York. Based on the times it appears that the 1928 operation was based out of Hot Springs and the turn went there to Covington and back. There were also 4 other passenger trains on the schedule, Nos 301, 303 and 304, 306. None of which show as mixed trains in the 1928 ORG.
In the 1950 ORG there was a connection from the FFV, No 3-43 that arrived at Covington at 455am and the car made connection with No 303 departing at 615 am, arriving Hot Springs 830 am. The car went back out at 815 pm on No 306 to Covington, making connection with C&O No 6 for the return to New York. According to the ORG Nos 303 and 306 were not mixed trains. However the other passenger trains on the branch were shown as mixed trains, Nos 305 and 310. Form the times it looks like the crew on No 303 turned back on No 310 and the crew on No 305 turned back on No 306. According tothe ORG the through sleeper to Hot Springs was 6 compartment, 3 Double room car.
John-NYBWFurthermore, if a facing point spur is involved, the passenger car is going to be part of the move no matter which end of the train it is on because of the necessity of doing a runaround move.
SD70Dude The line to Hot Springs was abandoned in 1972. The Classic Trains article noted that the only remaining freight traffic at the time of the author's ride was coal for the Homestead's boiler plant. Here's a plan for a model of this line. It's based on old C&O charts and aerial photos so the terminal layout at Hot Springs is probably fairly accurate. The line had more local traffic in the 1950s but presumably all this had switched to trucks during the 1960s. https://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/co-hot-springs-sub-va-track-plan-n/
The line to Hot Springs was abandoned in 1972. The Classic Trains article noted that the only remaining freight traffic at the time of the author's ride was coal for the Homestead's boiler plant.
Here's a plan for a model of this line. It's based on old C&O charts and aerial photos so the terminal layout at Hot Springs is probably fairly accurate. The line had more local traffic in the 1950s but presumably all this had switched to trucks during the 1960s.
https://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/co-hot-springs-sub-va-track-plan-n/
If that is the depot to the right of the turntable at Hot Springs, that might explain why they would have placed the passenger cars on the front end. It would make it easier for an arriving train to spot them on the spur track. Although I don't have the same track arrangement, having my combine on the front end also makes the arrival at the depot much simpler.
Positioning the passenger car in the train for the return trip would require the runaround track whether the passenger cars were placed at the front or the rear of the train.
Your argument that a railroad would not want to involve a passenger car in switching moves on a mixed train makes no sense in light of the fact that passenger trains routinely switched cars in route. This was true in the pre-Amtrak days and carried forward into the Amtrak years. There is nothing hazardous about switching cars with passengers onboard. Furthermore, if a facing point spur is involved, the passenger car is going to be part of the move no matter which end of the train it is on because of the necessity of doing a runaround move.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
John-NYBWThe end of the train isn't visible. The foliage hides what is around the bend.
Actually it is. If you enlarge the image the top of the rail is clearly visible behind the hopper car, under the branches, with nothing on top of it. There are only two freight cars attached to the engine.
It could be switching someplace and has uncoupled from the rest of the train, it might not be running with a caboose that day, dunno. What is clear is that there are only two passenger cars and two freight cars coupled to the engines in the picture. Unless the following cars are floating along with no trucks or wheels touching the rails or are made of Star Trek's "transparent aluminum". 8-)
Looking at the other pictures only having 2 freight cars does not seem out of line since all the other pictures of that train don't show any freight cars, only passenger cars and a caboose. Looking at Historic Aerials photos and topo maps it looks like there really isn't very much industry up that narrow valley, so only an occaisional couple of freight cars by the late 1950's early 1960's isn't out of line.
crossthedog John-NYBW I really want to get this done sometime over the fall and winter after I put the golf clubs away. Golf! Well, there's your problem, right there. "A good walk spoiled," Mark Twain said.
John-NYBW I really want to get this done sometime over the fall and winter after I put the golf clubs away.
Golf! Well, there's your problem, right there. "A good walk spoiled," Mark Twain said.
I started playing in 1966 and just recently though I might finally be figuring it out. I've reached an age where it is a realistic possibility I could shoot my age. I'm 70 now and on my home course that would require me to shoot one under par. I've shot under par a number of times on other courses but even par 71 is the best I've been able to do on my current home course. I've been close a couple times this year but just make a couple mistakes too many to get it done.
I've been working on my current layout for over 20 years but it would be more accurate to say over 10 years because I hardly touch it during the golf season which in Ohio is from early April to the end of October. I used to play even in the cold weather months but those days are over.
For me, there are really only two seasons, golf season and train season.
John-NYBWI really want to get this done sometime over the fall and winter after I put the golf clubs away.
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
DrW MidlandMike John-NYBW I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s. It appears that the second passenger car is a pullman. I'm thinking it's the Hot Springs train to that fancy resort, so it's a somewhat unique mixed train. Those cars would needed to have been connected to the loco for steam heat. It is indeed the Hot Springs train. At https://www.trains.com/ctr/photos-videos/photos/great-passenger-trains/co-gallery/ you can find the legend of the photo: C&O’s Hot Springs mixed Covington–Hot Springs, Va., mixed train with through Pullman from New York, June 1954.Bob Lewis
MidlandMike John-NYBW I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s. It appears that the second passenger car is a pullman. I'm thinking it's the Hot Springs train to that fancy resort, so it's a somewhat unique mixed train. Those cars would needed to have been connected to the loco for steam heat.
John-NYBW I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s.
It appears that the second passenger car is a pullman. I'm thinking it's the Hot Springs train to that fancy resort, so it's a somewhat unique mixed train. Those cars would needed to have been connected to the loco for steam heat.
It is indeed the Hot Springs train. At https://www.trains.com/ctr/photos-videos/photos/great-passenger-trains/co-gallery/ you can find the legend of the photo:
Covington–Hot Springs, Va., mixed train with through Pullman from New York, June 1954.Bob Lewis
Great stuff there. The map is really helpful. I see that Hot Springs is at the end of a branch that diverged from the mainline just east of White Sulphur Springs. It makes sense it would be served by a mixed train while the mainline took passengers to White Sulphur Springs, which I was far more familiar with.
This is very similar to my branchline which diverges from the mainline in New York near the Catskills.
SD70Dude MidlandMike John-NYBW I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s. It appears that the second passenger car is a pullman. I'm thinking it's the Hot Springs train to that fancy resort, so it's a somewhat unique mixed train. Those cars would needed to have been connected to the loco for steam heat. There was an article about this line in the fall 2012 issue of Classic Trains. In addition to keeping the passenger cars next to the locomotive there was a turntable at Hot Springs, and the crew would turn business and observation cars so they would always face the right way.
There was an article about this line in the fall 2012 issue of Classic Trains. In addition to keeping the passenger cars next to the locomotive there was a turntable at Hot Springs, and the crew would turn business and observation cars so they would always face the right way.
I have debated whether to turn the combine. There are small turntables at both ends of the branch to turn the loco so I could turn the combine if I choose to do so. Since it will usually be the only passenger car in the consist, I'm not sure that will be necessary.
crossthedog John-NYBW Here are a couple more short C&O trains with coach(es) right behind the loco and a caboose behind them. 36253175571_0132732584_b.jpg (1024×652) (staticflickr.com) https://live.staticflickr.com/4370/36489617592_37fc917554_b.jpg Not sure what the story was here. Were these mixed trains that had set out their freight cars or did the C&O run branchline passenger trains with a caboose on the end? I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s. Huzzah! There ya go, John. The long search is over. I'm very pleased because like you I have a depot that fits in the layout most comfortably at the far end of the terminus, near the end of the track, and I want to pull the combine into the station at the head end of a mixed local, which will leave just room for the loco to get beyond the turnout and then come back out on the escape track. But I didn't want to have to invoke Rule #1 if I could point to photographic proof that it was done. My situation will be similar to that second photo where the loco has almost got its nose in the street. -Matt
John-NYBW Here are a couple more short C&O trains with coach(es) right behind the loco and a caboose behind them. 36253175571_0132732584_b.jpg (1024×652) (staticflickr.com) https://live.staticflickr.com/4370/36489617592_37fc917554_b.jpg Not sure what the story was here. Were these mixed trains that had set out their freight cars or did the C&O run branchline passenger trains with a caboose on the end? I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s.
Huzzah! There ya go, John. The long search is over. I'm very pleased because like you I have a depot that fits in the layout most comfortably at the far end of the terminus, near the end of the track, and I want to pull the combine into the station at the head end of a mixed local, which will leave just room for the loco to get beyond the turnout and then come back out on the escape track. But I didn't want to have to invoke Rule #1 if I could point to photographic proof that it was done. My situation will be similar to that second photo where the loco has almost got its nose in the street.
-Matt
I'm the same way. I don't like to invoke Rule #1. My railroad is fictional but I want it to be plausible. I don't mind employing an unusual practice as long as I know it was done by some real railroads. I don't know if this practice was unique to the C&O but I now have four photos where passenger cars were at the front of the train with freight cars and/or a caboose trailing. If it was good enough for the C&O, it's good enough for me.
My situation is similar to yours except I have a bumper post just before the street. The local post office is between the depot and the street. Across the street will be a large Victorian style hotel which I have yet to build. I was hoping to get to it this summer but haven't found the time. I want to put in interiors and lights in some of the rooms as well as the lower level so it's going to require lots of time. I bought the kit about 30 years ago as I was conceptualizing the railroad I would build in my retirement home. I had read about this kit in MR's product reviews but couldn't find anyone to order it from. I finally found it when the NMRA national convention was held in Columbus, OH. The guy who created the kit had a table at the train show and he had a built up version of it on display. Really nice looking. He also gave me some tips on how it should be painted. I really want to get this done sometime over the fall and winter after I put the golf clubs away.
I'm guessing you are referring to White Sulphur Springs. A very popular resort especially for the Washington crowd. In addition during the Cold War, there were underground bunkers under the resort as a place for high ranking government and military personnel to shelter. Not sure how they expected to get there in the event of a missile atttack unless they had a real fast train. Maybe the plan was to go there if tensions got real high as in the Cuban Missile Crisis although my reading of that episode indicates the high ranking people in the JFK administration as well as the Joint Chiefs remained in Washington the whole time.
The bunkers built to survive an apocalypse - BBC Future
I like the staged shot of the guy hunkering in his fallout shelter with his tie on. His wife is dressed like June Cleaver.
White Sulphur Springs had several golf courses and Sam Snead was their host pro. In his retirement, he would offer to play a round with your group for several hundred dollars.
dehusman John-NYBW I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) And no caboose. Looks like they ran around the train and were just coming back with the whole train reversed. With just two freight cars, they aren't going to do much switching and the conductor just has to walk two car lengths to do an air test.
John-NYBW I finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com)
And no caboose. Looks like they ran around the train and were just coming back with the whole train reversed. With just two freight cars, they aren't going to do much switching and the conductor just has to walk two car lengths to do an air test.
The end of the train isn't visible. The foliage hides what is around the bend. The other two photos showed C&O trains with a caboose behind the passenger cars even when there were no freight cars so it appears at least the C&O would run their branchline trains that way.
John-NYBWI finally found this one. A mixed train with the passenger cars right behind the loco. gl130715-3-1.jpg (1024×701) (trains.com) It doesn't appear to be an excursion train. I'm guessing a mixed train from the 1950s or 1960s.