Yet another one for my Forum friends. For mainline track, how many ties would one expect to have on a 39' section of track? I'm building a tie car to go along with my rail hauling car and and want to have them close to being balanced.
As usual, thank you for any assistance that can be provided.
I think it was Ed that posted this way back, you can do the math.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMANI think it was Ed that posted this way back, you can do the math.
A Gold Star for you, Brent! You passed the memory exam with flying colors
NYC_Data_1948 by Edmund, on Flickr
My feeble mind says there are 24 ties per 39' length of rail.
NYC_Data_1942_0001 by Edmund, on Flickr
[edit] Oops, I didn't anticipate you adding the graphic so I did while you were editing...
Cheers, Ed
Here are 1 million ties if you need a few.
BATMAN Here are 1 million ties if you need a few.
No thank you. I think I have enough for what I need to do. I do need to paint/stain them however.
FRRYkid;
Don't forget, in most instances, the joints in stick rail were staggered. If you stood at the joint in one rail, the joint in the other would be about 19 feet away. That is why you get that clickety-clack sound from North American trains, where as European and other foreign railroads have the joints opposite each other, much like model railroad sectional or snap track. If you ever watch a foreign movie, set somewhere overseas, listen for the clack-clack of the parallel rail joints.
The reason I was given for our offset rail joints was, the size and weight of our trains would hammer the joints so badly, every 39 feet would be like a roller coaster ride. The hopping up and down at speeds you would find in a crowded parking lot would certainly disuade any passengers and, ruin most freight.
European and other foreign railroads used much lighter rail than we do, as most of their equipment was four wheeled with a wheelbase of 8 to 15 feet and grossing maybe 30 tons maximum. Our cars often weigh more empty than a lot of foreign (overseas) equipment does loaded. The 200 ton diesel units and 125 ton capable cars, at the speeds we operate, would destroy their railroads on the first pass. There are some exceptions, like some of the iron ore operations of Australia where the standards of North America are used.
The message I want to get across is, don't spend a lot of time parceling out the precise number of ties found under 39 feet of rail. A railroads buys ties by the carload(s), and uses what they need, when they need them. There are some cast resin tie loads available in HO, but I can't recall who makes them. Ties are hauled in cars other than gondolas, also. SP would haul steel strapped bundles of new ties on 40 and 53 foot plain revenue flats, as well as occasional bulkhead flats. As the livestock business left the rails, a number of railroads used their stock cars to haul ties-this includes the Northern Pacific.
Load a couple of cars with whatever number of ties it takes, I guarantee, come the next derailment, it won't be too many.
NHTX The message I want to get across is, don't spend a lot of time parceling out the precise number of ties found under 39 feet of rail. A railroads buys ties by the carload(s), and uses what they need, when they need them. There are some cast resin tie loads available in HO, but I can't recall who makes them. Ties are hauled in cars other than gondolas, also. SP would haul steel strapped bundles of new ties on 40 and 53 foot plain revenue flats, as well as occasional bulkhead flats.
The message I want to get across is, don't spend a lot of time parceling out the precise number of ties found under 39 feet of rail. A railroads buys ties by the carload(s), and uses what they need, when they need them. There are some cast resin tie loads available in HO, but I can't recall who makes them. Ties are hauled in cars other than gondolas, also. SP would haul steel strapped bundles of new ties on 40 and 53 foot plain revenue flats, as well as occasional bulkhead flats.
I'm actually going to build my own loads. I'm just trying to figure out approximately how many stacks I'm going to need as I'm looking at buying another car for ties. I have an idea for one but I want to make sure that the number of stacks will work with the flat car I'm looking at which will have some bashing on it if I go with it. I'm not going to go "rivet counter" on the stacks but I want to make sure it's enough to at least look prototypical.
I don't see any concrete.
maxmanI don't see any concrete.
Quite interestingly, the P&LE looked at concrete ties way back in 1911:
Bruckner_concrete-tie-1911 by Edmund, on Flickr
Steel ties, too:
Carnegie_steel-tie by Edmund, on Flickr
Like electric starters, an idea before its time.
Regards, Ed
A hint--if you're going to be making your own stacks of ties. Use quarter ties where only the ends will be visible. It may require a little extra cutting by quartering a tie but it saves on material, "creosote" and, the hollow stacks are excellent places to hide additional weight if your cars need it.
Whether a car looks prototypical depends on a lot of variables. A car just received fully loaded with neatly banded and stacked pressure-creosoted ties in 4 wide by three high "bundles" may look just as prototypical as the one with 5 or 6 bundles gone, a bundle still on the car with five of its dozen ties missing and, the steel banding straps waving in the breeze. Then there is the flat car or, gondola with the last few stragglers from its last full load scattered randomly about.
The only thing you might want to be careful of, is the weight. I remember reading, a pressure creosoted, nine foot mainline tie can weigh as much as 500 lbs! It wouldn't take too many of those puppies to overload a 50 ton capacity car. That 4x3 bundle now weighs three tons! Now, do you see why railroads carelessly leave brand new ties laying alongside the track in preparation of a replacement program? Not too many folks can hoist one into the bed of a pickup, not too many pickups can carry more than two or three and, that danged fresh creosote is some NASTEE stuff, no matter where you get it. As a freelancer, you have the right to do it in a way you like. Enjoy.
NHTXNot too many folks can hoist one into the bed of a pickup, not too many pickups can carry more than two or three
I remember helping an uncle to build fencing on his vegetable farm, using ties (and not old ones, either - I think that he may have had some "connections".)
I had to dig the post holes a minimum 3'6" deep (the frost line in that location), which wasn't all that difficult. The real test came at the bottom of a "dip" in the terrain, where a hole of a similar depth was required. Rather than just a simple a post hole, though, it was about 3' wide and 10' long, to accommodate two 10' ties laid flat and bolted at their mid-point to the tie that was to be the post at the bottom of the dip. I didn't understand why this was necessary, but he explained that when the fencing was added and then stretched-taut by the tractor, that post wouldn't be lifted out of the ground.
As a 150lb. teen, I built-up some pretty-good muscle just trying to keep up with him, as he was well into his '60s, after decades as a lumberjack.
FRRYKidFor mainline track, how many ties would one expect to have on a 39' section of track?
All you need to do is lay one of those 39' rails alongside a piece of straight track, then count the ties within that 39'.
Wayne
NHTX A hint--if you're going to be making your own stacks of ties. Use quarter ties where only the ends will be visible. It may require a little extra cutting by quartering a tie but it saves on material, "creosote" and, the hollow stacks are excellent places to hide additional weight if your cars need it.
I was already planning on that anyway. I hadn't thought about hiding weight in then however.
NHTX Whether a car looks prototypical depends on a lot of variables. A car just received fully loaded with neatly banded and stacked pressure-creosoted ties in 4 wide by three high "bundles" may look just as prototypical as the one with 5 or 6 bundles gone, a bundle still on the car with five of its dozen ties missing and, the steel banding straps waving in the breeze. Then there is the flat car or, gondola with the last few stragglers from its last full load scattered randomly about. The only thing you might want to be careful of, is the weight. I remember reading, a pressure creosoted, nine foot mainline tie can weigh as much as 500 lbs! It wouldn't take too many of those puppies to overload a 50 ton capacity car. That 4x3 bundle now weighs three tons!
The only thing you might want to be careful of, is the weight. I remember reading, a pressure creosoted, nine foot mainline tie can weigh as much as 500 lbs! It wouldn't take too many of those puppies to overload a 50 ton capacity car. That 4x3 bundle now weighs three tons!
I didn't realize that ties weighed quite THAT much! I was thinking of bashing a tie car from the short Tyco culvert car. Either I have to change that idea or do two of them. (The second option was in my thought process.) From my calculations, I would need at least 16 stacks which comes to 48 tons just on tie weight. That makes me a bit worried on weight of banding and other packing needs.
One little additional factor for those accurately modeling 39' stick rail, is that different railroads had different views as to whether a tie should be directly under the joint between two stick, or whether the joint should be unsupported at the joint, but a closer than normal tie spacing near the ends of the sticks of rail. I used to give an NMRA clinic called "A Closer Look at Track" and as part of putting together the 35mm slides I either tried to find examples of both approaches in my collection, or would look for examples during railfan jaunts. Someone told me at a clinic that different divisions of the same railroad might have different approaches depending on the views of the person in charge.
There are other variations to look for in things like rail anchors (on both sides of a tie, or just on one side of tie on tracks with one current or direction of traffic, or just on one side but then on both sides at crossings?), and whether the rail joining fish plates were four holes or six holes, a function of era but also rail size and speed of trains, and again the use of compromise fish plates for changes of rail size. Even the shape of the joining fish plate differed.
I always intended to re-do that track clinic for the digital age but some of the more interesting original slides went missing. One I particularly miss was a railroad crossing which instead of timbers, or rubber mats, or cast concrete or steel, the entire crossing was lengths of rail between the running rail. Durable to be sure! I don't remember where I took the picture and it likely has changed since.
Dave Nelson
Hello All,
FRRYKidI do need to paint/stain them however.
To achieve the color of creosote I use a mixture of one (1) part Minwax Wood Finish Stain #225 Red Mahogany and three (3) parts Ebony #2781.
I then put the pieces to be stained in a zip-top freezer bag and add the stain.
After sealing the bag I place it in a leak-proof container- -in case the zip-top bag leaks.
I let them soak for 12- to 24-hours depending on how saturated you want the color.
You can remove the pieces with a Nitrile gloved hand or use a kitchen strainer, for smaller pieces.
Spread the stained pieces in a single layer on several sheets of paper towels and allow to air dry in a well-ventilated area.
The stains are mineral spirit-based and give off fumes as they dry.
Check out this thread for more advice...
Question about staining and gluing
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnit To achieve the color of creosote I use a mixture of one (1) part Minwax Wood Finish Stain #225 Red Mahogany and three (3) parts Ebony #2781.
I was just going to paint them Grimy Black and call it good. That's what I've always used for my tie crossings. (And yes I build my own road crossings with ties as well.)
I think I've figured out the car situation. I will use the flat that came with the rails for the ties and use the culvert car for the rails once they are shortened to 39'.
FRRYkid,
Most new ties with creosote oozing out of them appear very black with just the slightest hint of brown, and have a somewhat glossy look, that depends on how new they are.
NHTX FRRYkid, Most new ties with creosote oozing out of them appear very black with just the slightest hint of brown, and have a somewhat glossy look, that depends on how new they are.
Sounds like I pick up some gloss and flat black and mix a smidgen of brown to get the right color. (Apparently one of the few times that gloss is realistic other than water.)
gmpullmanLike electric starters, an idea before its time.
Can you imagine the noise? Can you imagine the corrugation?
The thing that made modern concrete ties even tenable was the practical acceptance of Pandrol or other elastic fixation; even then, you get relatively lousy behavior without elastomer pad between the rail and the seat in the tie.
Of course you have to make derailments illegal. Run a flange, even on an unloaded car, over the center of a concrete tie and you'll crack it. This ruins the prestress or post-tension (simple reinforcement isn't really good for repeating sharp dynamic loads) and the tie will join the wind-turbine blades in the 'too expensive to reclaim' landfill...
Bethlehem, as I recall, made a serious push with the steel ties. To my knowledge they never really solved the rust problem long-term. One issue was that the Bethlehem tie is hollow, with ballast contact up inside, and steel is unyielding in contact with ballast. Think of the fun when the ballast in the cribs starts to work...
Some railroads experimented with what were called 'screw spikes' -- Erie was one, and you could still find them in track on the Bergen County Line and Old Main Line. There are pictures of the air-operated "screwdrivers" that installed these... presumably with clutch action on full engagement; the ones I saw went right into square tieplate holes, and in some cases shared a plate with regular spikes. These would not work with concrete ties, unless you cast or inserted wood blocks into them.
The Germans were concerned enough about track shock to research the idea of sprung track, starting around the end of WWI. They unfortunately wound up with the opposite problem: damping. Apparently their efforts ceased when the test locomotive kept bouncing completely off the rails. (But not before they tried to accelerate testing for how to compensate for rail expansion. They electrically resistance-heated the rail, and somewhere in the literature is the fascinating picture of the track bowing vertically up, which apparently is how track fails when the rails are continuously, quickly, and severely heated...)
OvermodAnd you can figure out why it 'failed to thrive' then, in less than 15 seconds, just by looking at the two pictures Ed provided.
Failure? Yep, looks that way:
Percival_concrete-tie by Edmund, on Flickr
OvermodBethlehem, as I recall, made a serious push with the steel ties. To my knowledge they never really solved the rust problem long-term.
I wonder just how much salt brine was actually dumped along the right-of-way from the ice bunker refrigerator cars. I recall seeing in one of the Emery Goulash videos of a passing New York Central "hot-shots" that you could clearly see each and every brine drain dripping right on the track structure. Must have taken its toll on the ferrous hardware.
OvermodSome railroads experimented with what were called 'screw spikes' -- Erie was one, and you could still find them in track on the Bergen County Line and Old Main Line. There are pictures of the air-operated "screwdrivers" that installed these... presumably with clutch action on full engagement; the ones I saw went right into square tieplate holes, and in some cases shared a plate with regular spikes.
Wouldn't ya' know — I just came across these two fellows screwin' around on the ERIE.
Tie_Plates-Lags by Edmund, on Flickr
I've got a Stormy Kromer like that fellow is wearing