Dave,
Thank you for your responses.
Am I correct in now believing that the presence of flags on the rear of a train is NOT to prevent REAR-END collision?
And that they reason they were used was for scenarios like this (pretty much restating what you said):
Train A is in a siding, waiting for Train B, which is to approach from the opposite direction. Train B passes, but there are no flags on the end of the train. Train A then must wait in the siding until the missing part of Train B is "fetched", quite likely by a backwards movement of the front of Train B. And then the flags would properly pass.
Train C, following Train B, may well crash into the now "missing" rear part of Train B. But that is not related to the flags on Train B. ABS signaling would be a real convenience. Which explains its enthusiastic adoption some time ago.
This does not bring in telegraphy, nor dispatchers into the discussion, of course.
It is difficult to let go of the idea that two red flags or two red lights on the rear of a train are NOT there to prevent rear-end collision.
I believe the use of bright and frequently oscillating red lights at the rear of passenger trains WAS to do that protecting. And that when the red light was on, it could be accepted as a substitute for the red flags or markers.
Ed
7j43kIf the flags are there, there is probably no action needed.
Hell no, STOP.
If the flags are not there, what action should this train take (being perhaps 200 yards away)?
STOP.
You had better be planning to stop, have the brakes set way before 200 yards.
7j43kWhat fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?
I have no idea what you are asking.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman 7j43k But as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react. You are confusing markers with automobile tailights. The markers tell trains being met or passed that all the train is by. It a train meets another train and the markers go by the train being met, that means the ENTIRE train has gone by and its afe for the waiting train to leave. If the there is no marker, then the train waiting still has to wait for the rest of the train. They aren't the thing that tells a following train to stop. That is done by signals or actions a mile to miles behind the train. By the time the following train could see the caboose it is expected to be moving slow enough to stop short of or within half the range of vision of the train ahead, i.e. moving very slow.
7j43k But as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react.
You are confusing markers with automobile tailights.
The markers tell trains being met or passed that all the train is by. It a train meets another train and the markers go by the train being met, that means the ENTIRE train has gone by and its afe for the waiting train to leave. If the there is no marker, then the train waiting still has to wait for the rest of the train.
They aren't the thing that tells a following train to stop. That is done by signals or actions a mile to miles behind the train. By the time the following train could see the caboose it is expected to be moving slow enough to stop short of or within half the range of vision of the train ahead, i.e. moving very slow.
So you have these red flags at the rear of the train. And when an approaching train can get near enough to see whether the flags are there or not, that train must take proper action.
If the flags are there, there is probably no action needed.
My point is that all actions required must be safely carried out within 200 yards of the flags, or lack thereof.
What actions should the crew take, when 200 yards from rolling stock apparently on their track, that show no flags?
Consideration should be given that this may be ABS signaling, and that the signaling is giving our train a clear track.
What fits is that the stopped train has lost part of its train, such that there is now no red flag. But then, what happened to that element, such that OUR train is now present?
7j43kBut as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react.
I believe the ATSF wig-wags were only for signaling the engine crew; in fact I think some of them actually used searchlight-signal optics (if that reference to 'searchette' 4" bulbs means what I think it will). There is no light to the rear at all, even in an era other roads were implementing red or Mars lights to front and rear for emergency or unanticipated stops, for which a light on an extendable or swinging paddle would have been near-perfect.
I recall seeing the "day markers" on my young days of hanging around the New York Central.
The earliest photographic evidence I have shows them in use in March of 1962. This seems to align with their mention of them in my October 28, 1962 Lake Division timetable:
NYCS_ETT12_10-28-62 by Edmund, on Flickr
Rule 19.
Probably more important than any kind of warning device the markers were necessary to designate the end of the train. No operator can report a train "by" without actually seeing the marker, weather it be a ratty old flag stuck in the knuckle of the last coupler or fancy illuminated Adlake streamlined markers built in to the newest observation cars. It is not a train without those markers.
The actual, bright red markers we see today are the result of FRA studies and the higher visibility was deemed necessary.
Those Santa Fe paddles were used for communication with the engine crew and I don't believe they were related to any "marker" rules. I'll have to follow up on that. Marker lamps were required per usual timetable rules. Radios and excess-height cars made the wig-wags obsolete.
IF I find photos of usage of the NYC day markers earlier than 1962 I'll update. My 1956 rulebook makes no mention of them. I actually had a pair a while back. I loaned them to my nephew and he left them on the back of a car he was moving from Cincinnati to Chicago... then forgot they were there! Bye-bye markers.
I don't recall any actual "reflectorization" on them. Simply painted a bright red. Perhaps some were actually "Scotchlite" but I'm guessing after buying a number of them the money-tight NYC began making their own replacements and using plain old sheet metal and red paint.
They nested in a half-arc, cast iron bracket with hair-pin cotters holding the disc in place. The wedge-shaped key was cast into the bracket.\
The Erie-Lackawanna used nearly identical day markers at about the same time the NYC did.
EL_Last-Lake Cities-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
Here's another very nice shot:
Note that the red light is available. MAYBE it's "broke".
The one on the left looks strangely homemade. And strangely similar to the one showing on the Big Sky Blue car.
I think there were sometimes two-sided flags, say red and green. I would worry about an accidental "flip". But as I hinted elsewhere, I don't see what good the flags would do, as by the time you see them; it would seem you'd be too close to react. "Mikey. Did you bring your binoculars this trip?"
PS: That's also a very nice photo of a ballasted multi-track through girder bridge! That plank is a new one on me.
Note the track is curved. Reminds me of a topic earlier........
The point of a red flag or red light or red lit markers was to warn following trains of an obstruction.
Sometimes there were additional "features". In particular, changing the red color to yellow or green, sometimes on only one side, would usually tell a following train that the former was in the clear. I truly wonder what use a tiny green flag would actually BE.
I think the Santa Fe wig-wag was meant for the latter purpose. And I suspect that a caboose would also carry red flags and/or markers for the more typical end of train indicator.
Here's an article about the Santa Fe wig-wags:
http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/WigWag/Index.htm
You'll see a photo of a caboose at the rear of a train with both the wig-wag AND markers.
In summary:
The red flag/light was an end-of-train warning.
All other colors to the rear (markers being able to be lit to the side, also) were "signal devices", as were the wig-wags.
They were common on the SP&S, and on the BN for awhile, at least on the old SP&S lines. In answer to the specific question, on THIS (SP&S) railroad, from the beginning until very roughly 1975.
In Ed Austin's fine book, "Burlington Northern Washington, Volume 1", there are a number of photos showing this.
My favorite is of an ex-GN "sports model" repainted into BN colors (page 107, BN 10370, August 17, 1974).
Here, illustrating "sports model", is one without the flags:
and here's a non-sports one WITH a flag:
I think the flag requirement ended when a caboose had a red light lit. So, once a caboose had them, the flags disappeared. A BRIGHT red light (NOT a marker light) to the rear would seem to have a lot more visual reach, which can explain why they were so popular on passenger trains.
But the caboose in the photo from the book DID have a red/green light available, yet had two red flags.
When were paddles/discs like the ones below commonly used as daytime signaling on the end of cabooses?
Although I've seen photos of them in use before, I did a google search for them this morning but couldn't find even one photo.
I did discover that the Santa Fe used a wigwag version on a few of their cabooses:
Being a fan of wigwags, that was an enjoyable find. Wouldn't have flown on the NYC though.
Anyhow, thanks for any info on the paddle/disc-type signals...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.