I am interested in modeling the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal on my layout. I have begun to do some basic research on the terminal itself and the terminal's track plan. I am anxious to dive deeper into my research, but I am hoping that some knowledgeable forum members can accelerate my learning process.
As I have determined so far, the terminal was built in 1939 and the track plan was a series of stub end tracks directly behind the terminal. There was no pass through provision for passenger trains as I understand it.
Here are my primary questions:
1. Are there any existing HO scale kits for the terminal or will I have to go the scratchbuilt route?
2. Am I correct that the track plan is a series of stub end tracks?
3. Did trains pull head long into the station, or did they back in?
4. Did trains pull head long out of the station, or did they back out?
5. Can anyone provide a detailed track plan set in the 1940s - 1950s?
I look forward to any information that anyone can provide, and I appreciate the assistance.
Alton Junction
Wow, I just found out that Walthers had a kit that replicates the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal, but it has been discontinued. It was priced at $199.99. Ouch!
They do sell NIB on eBay for $400 or so. That answers question #1. I will have to scratchbuild it.
Rich
I recall this old thread, Rich:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/277765/3181617.aspx#3181617
Maybe there's some help there? There is a link to a decent book on the subject in that thread. It is primarily about the station building itself and doesn't cover much of the railroad operation.
richhotrainThat answers question #1. I will have to scratchbuild it.
LAUPT_b by Edmund, on Flickr
LAUPT_f by Edmund, on Flickr
Be sure to use substantial bumping posts!
LAUPT_19-L by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
Thanks for the link to that thread, Ed. It is helpful. Only a year old thread to which I was a participant, and I don't even remember it.
As for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track.
richhotrainAs for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track.
Good thing those wires were there to stop the engines!
This is from 1920 but it's a start:
LAUPT_1920_Track by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
gmpullman richhotrain As for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track. Good thing those wires were there to stop the engines! Cheers, Ed
richhotrain As for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track.
Book about Los Angeles passenger terminal
https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/1563420031/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606658991&s=books&sr=1-1
"The Last of the Great Stations: 50 years of the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal (Interurbans Special No. 72) This fascinating book about the Los Angeles Union Terminal was published in 1979 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the station. The book covers every aspect of the terminal, from a look at the prior railroad stations, the planning and architecture (with plans), construction, operation, and the struggle to keep the station alive in the era of airplanes. Illustrated throughout with B&W photos from all eras. w/ arrival timetables. 120 pages."
Lower price
https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/091637436X/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606659387&s=books&sr=1-2
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
A perspective of a 12 year old from 1949.
We arrived at Union Station on the UP City of Los Angles December 21, 1949 from Salt Lake City. I was in a vistdome car as we pulled in to the station, we didn’t back into the station. We left the next day on the SP Golden State headed to El Paso Tx, we didn’t back out of Union Station.We were delayed on Donner Pass 19 hours stuck in snow and they had to send a snow blower from Roseville to open the tracks. The delay screwed up our UP to SP connection causing us to stay over night in LA. Quite an experience for a 12 year old. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
That does sound like quite an experience, Mel.
So, the operation in and out of the station sounds exactly the same as the operation that I mimic in my Dearborn Station complex. Thanks Mel.
Based upon Mel's recollections, let me ask if anyone has a track plan that includes the coach yard and engine servicing facility for the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal.
gmpullman LAUPT_1920_Track by Edmund, on Flickr
gmpullman Be sure to use substantial bumping posts!
And thanks for those station drawings, Ed.
This would have been something to see!
Thirty-one years ago! My — where did the time go? Even then, look at the people swarming around the equipment. I think everyone would have been roped-off today.
Some insight on signaling and trackwork:
https://www.jonroma.net/media/signaling/railway-signaling/1939/Mission%20Tower%20Interlocking%20at%20Los%20Angeles.pdf
I sent you a PM, Rich.
Regards, Ed
At the moment, I don't have anything substantial to add to the discussion. It looks like the research phase is well underway, and there is plenty of info available. Those architectural plans are gold!
But I can offer my enthusiastic support of the scratch-building project to be undertaken. Good luck, Rich.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Thanks, Robert, for your encouraging words. I cannot hope to even come close to quality of workmanship that you have accomplished. But I will give this scratchbuilding effort a try.
Hi Rich,
Thank you for this thread and the links it has generated. Coincidentally, I am in the planning stages of placing a facimile of the LA Union Station on my layout. Mine will not be prototypical and the station itself will be scaled down and may need to be adapted to fit the available space. It will be on a raised terrace and I was trying to figure out a detail for a retaining wall and once again Ed comes through with exactly what i was looking for.
(Sent you a PM Rich). .
Tim
Late to the model railroad party but playing catch-up.....
It may be a long shot, but Discontinued from Walthers sometimes means they stopped production but may bring it back. The same thing happened to the carfloat kits, which commanded absurd prices once Walthers stopped making them. Production restarted, though, and I found one at Trainworld for significantly below list price.
If you'd rather not scratchbuild it, do something else for a while and wait.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
CapnCrunchCoincidentally, I am in the planning stages of placing a facimile of the LA Union Station on my layout.
Thanks, Tim —
I sent you a PM, too...
Maybe it wouldn't hurt for you guys planning an LAUPT to pick up the distinctive platform shelters while they're still available?
https://www.walthers.com/station-platform-kit-pkg-2-11-3-4-x-2-1-4-x-2-5-8-quot-29-8-x-5-7-x-6-6cm
This Santa Fe Tower is a pretty good stand-in for Terminal Tower, too:
https://www.walthers.com/atsf-interlocking-tower-kit-2-7-8-x-4-7-8-x-5-1-8-quot-7-3-x-12-3-x-13cm
Just sayin'
gmpullman...Maybe it wouldn't hurt for you guys planning an LAUPT to pick up the distinctive platform shelters while they're still available? https://www.walthers.com/station-platform-kit-pkg-2-11-3-4-x-2-1-4-x-2-5-8-quot-29-8-x-5-7-x-6-6cm
That picture was one of the ones I used when I was searching for "butterfly-style" platform roofs, although my scratchbuilt ones are a little simpler...
(My apologies to Rich for not cropping-out the portion of Bertram's which inadvertently crept into the frame.)
Wayne
I imagine these could be scratchbuilt, too. Evergreen makes a structural siding that would work here.
LAUPT_Platform-shed by Edmund, on Flickr
If the modeler truly wants the look of the LAUPT platform area the distinctive end profile is a must.
doctorwayne (My apologies to Rich for not cropping-out the portion of Bertram's which inadvertently crept into the frame.) Wayne
gmpullman If the modeler truly wants the look of the LAUPT platform area the distinctive end profile is a must.
DSchmitt Book about Los Angeles passenger terminal https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/1563420031/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606658991&s=books&sr=1-1 "The Last of the Great Stations: 50 years of the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal (Interurbans Special No. 72) This fascinating book about the Los Angeles Union Terminal was published in 1979 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the station. The book covers every aspect of the terminal, from a look at the prior railroad stations, the planning and architecture (with plans), construction, operation, and the struggle to keep the station alive in the era of airplanes. Illustrated throughout with B&W photos from all eras. w/ arrival timetables. 120 pages." Lower price https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/091637436X/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606659387&s=books&sr=1-2
MisterBeasley It may be a long shot, but Discontinued from Walthers sometimes means they stopped production but may bring it back. The same thing happened to the carfloat kits, which commanded absurd prices once Walthers stopped making them. Production restarted, though, and I found one at Trainworld for significantly below list price. If you'd rather not scratchbuild it, do something else for a while and wait.
gmpullman richhotrain As for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track. Good thing those wires were there to stop the engines! This is from 1920 but it's a start: LAUPT_1920_Track by Edmund, on Flickr Cheers, Ed
I hesitate to comment since Ed is one of the most knowledgeable folks on the forum. But this isn't the track plan that was built. It was one of the proposals, but not what was built. The LAUPT book has the as-built track plan. My copy of the book is still packed away so I can't provide an image. Bruce Petty and Larry Mullaly's book on the SP in Los Angeles has some good information on the history of the terminal and a track plan.
IiRC, the Santa Fe San Diagan trains were the only trains that backed in. All others pulled in. Several pairs of tracks had a middle engine escape track with crossovers near the end. Terminal switchers then pulled the consists to the respective coach yards, and in the process turned them on the Mission Tower wye. ATSF coach yard was alongside the Los Angeles River at the 8th Street Yard - still used today by Amtrak. SP's coach yard was across the Los Angeles River at the Miision Coach Yard - it's now an intermodal terminal. UP took their trains to their East LA yard.
Departing trains were assembled with the switchers backing them in. The out bound power then backed down to the train.
Ray
All of the tracks are stub-end, but some had escape tracks (between tracks 6 & 7, 8 & 9, and 10 & 11). LAUPT (now L.A. Union Station) is a terminus, meaning no through trains. It was either the starting point or ending point of a run.
Arriving trains would head into the terminal for debarkation, then either run or be dragged backwards by switchers to the respective railroads' coach yards and engine terminals. There was no actual coach yard directly servicing the terminal. Santa Fe had a coach yard just south along the west bank of the L.A. river, which is now the Amtrak coach and engine terminal. Terminal Annex, the U.S. Post Office facility is right next to the terminal, and additional tracks diverged from the throat to service that facility.
Departing trains would run or be pulled backwards into the terminal for emkarkation, then head out to the respective roads' mainlines.
The best shift I worked that summer in 1967 was the day our crew dragged train 104, the eastbound City of Los Angeles backwards, without road power, into LAUPT with a GP9. Since there was no escape track available, we took a long lunch at a nearby Denny's and got back in time to watch them couple the E units onto the train while people were boarding. That hogger had one smooth touch. The baggage car didn't even move, let alone any of the passenger cars.
The trackage at LAUPT was controlled by Terminal Tower. A short distance away, Mission Tower controlled all the trackage from the various railroads and crossing the Los Angeles River.
Hope this helps.
Regards,Bruce
Colorado Ray It was one of the proposals, but not what was built.
That's why I mentioned the 1920 date but I should have elaborated that it was a drawing concerning the elimination of grade crossings and, yes, as you point out, a proposal.
Generally, we modelers are going to have to settle for a compromise in order to fit what trackage we deem necessary and trim off the rest so a "representative" track plan may at least suffice for our needs.
Colorado Ray I hesitate to comment since Ed is one of the most knowledgeable folks on the forum. But this isn't the track plan that was built. It was one of the proposals, but not what was built. The LAUPT book has the as-built track plan. My copy of the book is still packed away so I can't provide an image. Bruce Petty and Larry Mullaly's book on the SP in Los Angeles has some good information on the history of the terminal and a track plan. IiRC, the Santa Fe San Diagan trains were the only trains that backed in. All others pulled in. Several pairs of tracks had a middle engine escape track with crossovers near the end. Terminal switchers then pulled the consists to the respective coach yards, and in the process turned them on the Mission Tower wye. ATSF coach yard was alongside the Los Angeles River at the 8th Street Yard - still used today by Amtrak. SP's coach yard was across the Los Angeles River at the Miision Coach Yard - it's now an intermodal terminal. UP took their trains to their East LA yard. Departing trains were assembled with the switchers backing them in. The out bound power then backed down to the train.
It all sounds very similar to the way that operations took place at Dearborn Station in Chicago which I model on one end of my layout. My plan is to build the LAUPT on the other end of my layout, so all of this information is helpful.
Neptune48 All of the tracks are stub-end, but some had escape tracks (between tracks 6 & 7, 8 & 9, and 10 & 11). LAUPT (now L.A. Union Station) is a terminus, meaning no through trains. It was either the starting point or ending point of a run. Arriving trains would head into the terminal for debarkation, then either run or be dragged backwards by switchers to the respective railroads' coach yards and engine terminals. There was no actual coach yard directly servicing the terminal. Santa Fe had a coach yard just south along the west bank of the L.A. river, which is now the Amtrak coach and engine terminal. Terminal Annex, the U.S. Post Office facility is right next to the terminal, and additional tracks diverged from the throat to service that facility. Departing trains would run or be pulled backwards into the terminal for emkarkation, then head out to the respective roads' mainlines. The best shift I worked that summer in 1967 was the day our crew dragged train 104, the eastbound City of Los Angeles backwards, without road power, into LAUPT with a GP9. Since there was no escape track available, we took a long lunch at a nearby Denny's and got back in time to watch them couple the E units onto the train while people were boarding. That hogger had one smooth touch. The baggage car didn't even move, let alone any of the passenger cars. The trackage at LAUPT was controlled by Terminal Tower. A short distance away, Mission Tower controlled all the trackage from the various railroads and crossing the Los Angeles River. Hope this helps. Regards,Bruce
gmpullman Colorado Ray It was one of the proposals, but not what was built. That's why I mentioned the 1920 date but I should have elaborated that it was a drawing concerning the elimination of grade crossings and, yes, as you point out, a proposal. Generally, we modelers are going to have to settle for a compromise in order to fit what trackage we deem necessary and trim off the rest so a "representative" track plan may at least suffice for our needs. Regards, Ed