richhotrain Wow, I just found out that Walthers had a kit that replicates the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal, but it has been discontinued. It was priced at $199.99. Ouch! They do sell NIB on eBay for $400 or so. That answers question #1. I will have to scratchbuild it. Rich
Wow, I just found out that Walthers had a kit that replicates the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal, but it has been discontinued. It was priced at $199.99. Ouch!
They do sell NIB on eBay for $400 or so. That answers question #1. I will have to scratchbuild it.
Rich
Meanwhile, I have been watching a Buy It Now listing on eBay for $400. The original MSRP was $200. I was tempted to offer $300, just to see if the seller would accept an unsolicited offer. But, yesterday, that kit sold for $400. Unbelievable.
Alton Junction
Not your fault!
The 3d laser-printed depot looks awesome. I don't know if they make an HO version but I wouldn't have the room for it anyway.
Anyway, sorry to hijack. Back to Los Angeles.
Andy
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Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
Andy, those are great photos. Thanks for posting. Sorry that my PM feature is not working.
Rich, regarding the truncation of LAUPT, I had PM'd you about Milwaukee's Everett Street Station and how the Walther's version is also truncated in a similar way: two whole wings (one on each end of the station) are missing from the Walther's kit for space reasons. With those wings included the kit would probably be pushing 4' long.
Here is a screenshot of the station showing the missing wing on the north end:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/18/88/fb/1888fb165c0531c53c21b49a21a6c585.jpg
You can also see the extra wings on this site for an N scale laser-printed depot that looks really nice.
https://www.therailroadconnection.com/products/product_2887f06c-20d7-ff08-61b0-66fd9d723463
Just an interesting tidbit I'm sharing here since your PM access is out right now.
The Milwaukee Road Warrior Union Station is ranked #62 in Trains magazine's 100 Greatest Train Movies special publication. FWIW
Union Station is ranked #62 in Trains magazine's 100 Greatest Train Movies special publication. FWIW
The outside I have figured out but the inside is something that I would like to explore. I normally don't decorate the inside of my buildings but this could be fun for such a prominent structure.
I don't recall a lot of footage from the outside of the building but there is some.
Great idea, Andy. I will do it. Thanks.
Rich, if you need a look at the inside of the station, watch the 1950 film Union Station with William Holden and Barry Fitzgerald. All of the interior scenes were filmed inside the station. It's a great film noir.
It was also featured in The Dark Knight Rises and Blade Runner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Station_(film)
ROBERT PETRICK Here's a screen capture image from Google Earth street view showing the station as it exists today (or at least fairly recently). Is this the time frame you model? Or, will your station be configured to a previous era? Do you have any up close and detailed photos of the windows and doors and whatnot to help develop your model? I get the impression there are some more architectural plans around for the original construction and for the various renovations that have occurred. Keep up the good work. Robert
Here's a screen capture image from Google Earth street view showing the station as it exists today (or at least fairly recently). Is this the time frame you model? Or, will your station be configured to a previous era? Do you have any up close and detailed photos of the windows and doors and whatnot to help develop your model? I get the impression there are some more architectural plans around for the original construction and for the various renovations that have occurred.
Keep up the good work.
Robert
The time frame that I plan to model is the mid-1950s to the mid-1960s. I know that there have been architecural changes over the years, so I still need to pinpoint the period around 1960, give or take 5 years before or after. I need to get my hands on one or both of the two books cited earlier in this thread.
The design of the windows and doors remain an open question in my mind. I can get good views of the current windows and doors, but I am not at all certain if those designs were there around 1960.
For example, in the architectural drawing above, the original design was a 3 by 3 window pattern, and the top of the palladian window frame were 3 larger windows. In the current design, it is a 5 by 5 window pattern, and the top of the palladian window frame are 5 larger windows. Heck, maybe I should compromise with a 4 by 4 window pattern and a row of 4 larger windows at the top of the palladian window frame.
Hey Rich-
Your plan view and front elevation view sketches look pretty good. When a design idea forms inside your head, there are a lot of variables. But you have nailed down a lot of variables into hard points and dimensions. This is an important step.
LINK to SNSR Blog
I have been doing some further research on the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal since the last update to this thread. My main issue is to determine the basic dimensions of the various structures that comprise LAUPT. These dimensions have changed a bit over the years as architectural changes have been made to the passenger terminal. I have settled on a preliminary design, but I am open to suggestions for change.
The Walthers LAUPT kit would be my first choice, but it is discontinued and pricey when it was in stock. After further research, my objection to the Walthers kit is that it uses selective compression and omits the left found on the prototype structure. The overall width of the Walthers model is 29 inches. From front to back, it is approximately 22 inches.
Source: Walthers Cornerstone - Walthers.com
I was able to locate some architectural drawings that show the left wing missing from the Walthers model.
Source: kcet.org
Using Google Maps, I captured a 3D angle look at the current station which gives an overal aerial view of the station.
Source: Google Maps
Here is my preliminary design which includes the left wing missing from the Walthers kit. The overall width would be 48 inches. That is a massive structure in HO scale, but I believe that I will have the space to do it. Before I start scratch building, I have to confirm that this design will fit in the available space. I also need to do some design work on the passenger station tracks, of which there where 10, but I may settle for a few less tracks depending upon the available space.
One thing that I noticed on the Google Map image is the use of clay tile on the roofs, a pretty common roof type in Los Angeles and surrounding areas. I will definitely incorporate that in my design.
gmpullman Colorado Ray It was one of the proposals, but not what was built. That's why I mentioned the 1920 date but I should have elaborated that it was a drawing concerning the elimination of grade crossings and, yes, as you point out, a proposal. Generally, we modelers are going to have to settle for a compromise in order to fit what trackage we deem necessary and trim off the rest so a "representative" track plan may at least suffice for our needs. Regards, Ed
Colorado Ray It was one of the proposals, but not what was built.
That's why I mentioned the 1920 date but I should have elaborated that it was a drawing concerning the elimination of grade crossings and, yes, as you point out, a proposal.
Generally, we modelers are going to have to settle for a compromise in order to fit what trackage we deem necessary and trim off the rest so a "representative" track plan may at least suffice for our needs.
Regards, Ed
Neptune48 All of the tracks are stub-end, but some had escape tracks (between tracks 6 & 7, 8 & 9, and 10 & 11). LAUPT (now L.A. Union Station) is a terminus, meaning no through trains. It was either the starting point or ending point of a run. Arriving trains would head into the terminal for debarkation, then either run or be dragged backwards by switchers to the respective railroads' coach yards and engine terminals. There was no actual coach yard directly servicing the terminal. Santa Fe had a coach yard just south along the west bank of the L.A. river, which is now the Amtrak coach and engine terminal. Terminal Annex, the U.S. Post Office facility is right next to the terminal, and additional tracks diverged from the throat to service that facility. Departing trains would run or be pulled backwards into the terminal for emkarkation, then head out to the respective roads' mainlines. The best shift I worked that summer in 1967 was the day our crew dragged train 104, the eastbound City of Los Angeles backwards, without road power, into LAUPT with a GP9. Since there was no escape track available, we took a long lunch at a nearby Denny's and got back in time to watch them couple the E units onto the train while people were boarding. That hogger had one smooth touch. The baggage car didn't even move, let alone any of the passenger cars. The trackage at LAUPT was controlled by Terminal Tower. A short distance away, Mission Tower controlled all the trackage from the various railroads and crossing the Los Angeles River. Hope this helps. Regards,Bruce
All of the tracks are stub-end, but some had escape tracks (between tracks 6 & 7, 8 & 9, and 10 & 11). LAUPT (now L.A. Union Station) is a terminus, meaning no through trains. It was either the starting point or ending point of a run.
Arriving trains would head into the terminal for debarkation, then either run or be dragged backwards by switchers to the respective railroads' coach yards and engine terminals. There was no actual coach yard directly servicing the terminal. Santa Fe had a coach yard just south along the west bank of the L.A. river, which is now the Amtrak coach and engine terminal. Terminal Annex, the U.S. Post Office facility is right next to the terminal, and additional tracks diverged from the throat to service that facility.
Departing trains would run or be pulled backwards into the terminal for emkarkation, then head out to the respective roads' mainlines.
The best shift I worked that summer in 1967 was the day our crew dragged train 104, the eastbound City of Los Angeles backwards, without road power, into LAUPT with a GP9. Since there was no escape track available, we took a long lunch at a nearby Denny's and got back in time to watch them couple the E units onto the train while people were boarding. That hogger had one smooth touch. The baggage car didn't even move, let alone any of the passenger cars.
The trackage at LAUPT was controlled by Terminal Tower. A short distance away, Mission Tower controlled all the trackage from the various railroads and crossing the Los Angeles River.
Hope this helps.
Regards,Bruce
Colorado Ray I hesitate to comment since Ed is one of the most knowledgeable folks on the forum. But this isn't the track plan that was built. It was one of the proposals, but not what was built. The LAUPT book has the as-built track plan. My copy of the book is still packed away so I can't provide an image. Bruce Petty and Larry Mullaly's book on the SP in Los Angeles has some good information on the history of the terminal and a track plan. IiRC, the Santa Fe San Diagan trains were the only trains that backed in. All others pulled in. Several pairs of tracks had a middle engine escape track with crossovers near the end. Terminal switchers then pulled the consists to the respective coach yards, and in the process turned them on the Mission Tower wye. ATSF coach yard was alongside the Los Angeles River at the 8th Street Yard - still used today by Amtrak. SP's coach yard was across the Los Angeles River at the Miision Coach Yard - it's now an intermodal terminal. UP took their trains to their East LA yard. Departing trains were assembled with the switchers backing them in. The out bound power then backed down to the train.
I hesitate to comment since Ed is one of the most knowledgeable folks on the forum. But this isn't the track plan that was built. It was one of the proposals, but not what was built. The LAUPT book has the as-built track plan. My copy of the book is still packed away so I can't provide an image. Bruce Petty and Larry Mullaly's book on the SP in Los Angeles has some good information on the history of the terminal and a track plan.
IiRC, the Santa Fe San Diagan trains were the only trains that backed in. All others pulled in. Several pairs of tracks had a middle engine escape track with crossovers near the end. Terminal switchers then pulled the consists to the respective coach yards, and in the process turned them on the Mission Tower wye. ATSF coach yard was alongside the Los Angeles River at the 8th Street Yard - still used today by Amtrak. SP's coach yard was across the Los Angeles River at the Miision Coach Yard - it's now an intermodal terminal. UP took their trains to their East LA yard.
Departing trains were assembled with the switchers backing them in. The out bound power then backed down to the train.
It all sounds very similar to the way that operations took place at Dearborn Station in Chicago which I model on one end of my layout. My plan is to build the LAUPT on the other end of my layout, so all of this information is helpful.
gmpullman richhotrain As for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track. Good thing those wires were there to stop the engines! This is from 1920 but it's a start: LAUPT_1920_Track by Edmund, on Flickr Cheers, Ed
richhotrain As for the photo, it looks like at least one track was a pass through track.
Good thing those wires were there to stop the engines!
This is from 1920 but it's a start:
LAUPT_1920_Track by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
Ray
MisterBeasley It may be a long shot, but Discontinued from Walthers sometimes means they stopped production but may bring it back. The same thing happened to the carfloat kits, which commanded absurd prices once Walthers stopped making them. Production restarted, though, and I found one at Trainworld for significantly below list price. If you'd rather not scratchbuild it, do something else for a while and wait.
It may be a long shot, but Discontinued from Walthers sometimes means they stopped production but may bring it back. The same thing happened to the carfloat kits, which commanded absurd prices once Walthers stopped making them. Production restarted, though, and I found one at Trainworld for significantly below list price.
If you'd rather not scratchbuild it, do something else for a while and wait.
DSchmitt Book about Los Angeles passenger terminal https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/1563420031/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606658991&s=books&sr=1-1 "The Last of the Great Stations: 50 years of the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal (Interurbans Special No. 72) This fascinating book about the Los Angeles Union Terminal was published in 1979 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the station. The book covers every aspect of the terminal, from a look at the prior railroad stations, the planning and architecture (with plans), construction, operation, and the struggle to keep the station alive in the era of airplanes. Illustrated throughout with B&W photos from all eras. w/ arrival timetables. 120 pages." Lower price https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/091637436X/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606659387&s=books&sr=1-2
Book about Los Angeles passenger terminal
https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/1563420031/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606658991&s=books&sr=1-1
"The Last of the Great Stations: 50 years of the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal (Interurbans Special No. 72) This fascinating book about the Los Angeles Union Terminal was published in 1979 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the station. The book covers every aspect of the terminal, from a look at the prior railroad stations, the planning and architecture (with plans), construction, operation, and the struggle to keep the station alive in the era of airplanes. Illustrated throughout with B&W photos from all eras. w/ arrival timetables. 120 pages."
Lower price
https://www.amazon.com/Last-Great-Stations-Passenger-Interurbans/dp/091637436X/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=los+angeles+passenger+terminal&qid=1606659387&s=books&sr=1-2
gmpullman If the modeler truly wants the look of the LAUPT platform area the distinctive end profile is a must.
If the modeler truly wants the look of the LAUPT platform area the distinctive end profile is a must.
doctorwayne (My apologies to Rich for not cropping-out the portion of Bertram's which inadvertently crept into the frame.) Wayne
(My apologies to Rich for not cropping-out the portion of Bertram's which inadvertently crept into the frame.)
Wayne
I imagine these could be scratchbuilt, too. Evergreen makes a structural siding that would work here.
LAUPT_Platform-shed by Edmund, on Flickr
gmpullman...Maybe it wouldn't hurt for you guys planning an LAUPT to pick up the distinctive platform shelters while they're still available? https://www.walthers.com/station-platform-kit-pkg-2-11-3-4-x-2-1-4-x-2-5-8-quot-29-8-x-5-7-x-6-6cm
That picture was one of the ones I used when I was searching for "butterfly-style" platform roofs, although my scratchbuilt ones are a little simpler...
CapnCrunchCoincidentally, I am in the planning stages of placing a facimile of the LA Union Station on my layout.
Thanks, Tim —
I sent you a PM, too...
Maybe it wouldn't hurt for you guys planning an LAUPT to pick up the distinctive platform shelters while they're still available?
https://www.walthers.com/station-platform-kit-pkg-2-11-3-4-x-2-1-4-x-2-5-8-quot-29-8-x-5-7-x-6-6cm
This Santa Fe Tower is a pretty good stand-in for Terminal Tower, too:
https://www.walthers.com/atsf-interlocking-tower-kit-2-7-8-x-4-7-8-x-5-1-8-quot-7-3-x-12-3-x-13cm
Just sayin'
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hi Rich,
Thank you for this thread and the links it has generated. Coincidentally, I am in the planning stages of placing a facimile of the LA Union Station on my layout. Mine will not be prototypical and the station itself will be scaled down and may need to be adapted to fit the available space. It will be on a raised terrace and I was trying to figure out a detail for a retaining wall and once again Ed comes through with exactly what i was looking for.
(Sent you a PM Rich). .
Tim
Late to the model railroad party but playing catch-up.....
Thanks, Robert, for your encouraging words. I cannot hope to even come close to quality of workmanship that you have accomplished. But I will give this scratchbuilding effort a try.