So I'm attempting to plan out a model of a Terminal Railroad Association (TRRA) 0-8-0, pictured here:
I was planning to use a USRA 0-8-0 (likely a Proto 2000 model) as a starting base. Here's a picture of a prototype, for comparison:
Here's my dilemma. Both look incredibly different, but have close to identical dimensions. The main noticeable differences are the boiler width/diameter, valve gear, dome placement, and cab. The latter three are easy enough to resolve. However, according to the erection cards I was able to find*, compared to diagrams of the USRA found online*, the difference in boiler diameter is only 6 inches at most (Outer Diameter of the USRA is 80/81", inner diameter of the TRRA is 84 7/8"). This is a negligible difference of about 1.7 millimeters in HO scale. The locomotives are also the same height (15 feet), and the boiler centers are only 2 inches apart, another negligible measurement.
My questions are: Do I have the dimensions incorrect? Am I reading them wrong? If not, how would I model such a significant visual difference if the actual physical difference is minimal? Perhaps I am misjudging the photo, or missing another difference such as smokebox door or headlight size?
In other words, where is the disconnect here, and how do I translate this visual difference to HO scale?
I would greatly appreciate any insight; I'd love to be able to model the TRRA's 0-8-0, as I love its look. Thank you!
Its possible the boiler difference is just a difference between measuring a boiler with and without its jacketing. My guess is the differences could also be caused just due to some different blueprint modifications, or some factory variance. My guess is a standard HO Scale USRA 0-8-0 is still appropriate base for the locomotive you want to model, and any small differences will be negligible to the final look of the engine.
There are other significant differences. The pilots are different, and the cylinder saddles are different. In the second example, note the angle of both the cylinder and valve, with the whole appearing to be tilted outward at the valve. This also changed the angle of the blast pipes. The first steamer had a vertical stacking of the two cylinders. While not a huge difference, such things are quite obvious to steam enthusiasts, and are necessary for valve gear clearances and mounting.
Here are the diagrams I used for each, for reference:
They are different because they are two completely different locomotives! That is why the dimentions are different, etc, etc. Did you notice the different types of valve gear?Welcome to the wonderful world of model railroading. Sometimes you just have to make compromises. Happy kitbashing!
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As others have said, its all the little details. Different:
Cabs, cab windows, running boards, dome spacing, turret, dome shape, bell position, headlight position, valve gear, tender size and shape.
I would suggest going on YouTube and searching for Anthracite Modeler. He kitbashes the snot out of engines, might be an inspiration for some techniques.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Mjorstad...I was planning to use a USRA 0-8-0 (likely a Proto 2000 model) as a starting base....
If you use the Proto version, your first task would be to remove all of the piping, as it's all undersize. My thought is that the diemaker was unaware that pipe sizes on blueprints refer to inside diameters, not external ones, hence all of the undersize piping (it looks pretty good until you realise the discrepancy).
You needn't worry about the tilted-out-at-the-top cylinder/valve set-up shown in the photo of the USRA 0-8-0, as those on the Proto model are pretty-well perpendicular.I modified my Proto 0-8-0 into a reasonable facsimile of a CNR P-5-h, the prototype having been built in Moncton, New Brunswick in 1931. Working from a photo of the real one, I created new air reservoirs using lead-filled brass tubing, mounting them well under the boiler. I also had to lengthen the front of the loco's frame in order to accommodate the CNR front handrail set-up. The rear frame was also modified somewhat, while the tender got some minor changes, too. I was fortunate to not need to move the domes, nor alter the cab too much, but all of the piping was re-done, not only to get the correct sizes, but also the specific routing of them as on that particular prototype...
However, the T.R.R.A. loco looks quite a bit chunkier than the USRA prototype, and I wonder if you might fare better if you were to check for some older brass 0-8-0s as a starting point.
I was going to suggest this model of a B&O switcher, by United, that I did for a friend (one of two) but looking at the photo, it's not all that massive-looking, either....
You could perhaps use only the the Proto chassis, then scratchbuild (or "borrow" from another model) a boiler of suitable girth. Pretty-well all of the detail parts shown on the prototype are available from Bowser (Cal-Scale) and/or Precision Scale. The cab could be fairly easily constructed from styrene.
Wayne
MjorstadThis is a negligible difference of about 1.7 millimeters in HO scale.
1.7mm is not negligible in HO scale. That is just about 1/16", and it is very noticeable.
You need a hefty boiler to do the model justice. I think a used brass model would be a better starting point as others have suggested.
Or... you can live with the differences. The Life-Like model is beautiful, and you could do a few minor changes to remove the USRA cookie cutter look.
If you are happy with the result, you did it right.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
dehusmanI would suggest going on YouTube and searching for Anthracite Modeler.
Here's a link to one of RDG Casey's , aka the Anthracite Modeler, threads on the forum.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/241195.aspx?page=1
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I've seen him give a clinic on making his boilers, he makes it look so easy. And I've seen many of his models in person, several times - they looks absolutely great. Definitely a way to get a locomotive you want without worrying about building a mechanism to go with it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
SeeYou190 Mjorstad This is a negligible difference of about 1.7 millimeters in HO scale. . 1.7mm is not negligible in HO scale. That is just about 1/16", and it is very noticeable. . You need a hefty boiler to do the model justice. I think a used brass model would be a better starting point as others have suggested. . Or... you can live with the differences. The Life-Like model is beautiful, and you could do a few minor changes to remove the USRA cookie cutter look. . If you are happy with the result, you did it right. . -Kevin .
Mjorstad This is a negligible difference of about 1.7 millimeters in HO scale.
Ok, that is a good point, and helps inform my decision. As for a larger boiler, I was actually just planning to make that myself by making a tube from styrene. It’s a straight boiler with no taper, so it wouldn’t be too difficult to do. I could source the domes from detail parts and make the cab and walkways from styrene as well. I‘m mostly just trying to figure out how to scale down that major visual difference, so I think your point does help. Thank you!
MjorstadAs for a larger boiler, I was actually just planning to make that myself by making a tube from styrene. It’s a straight boiler with no taper, so it wouldn’t be too difficult to do. I could source the domes from detail parts and make the cab and walkways from styrene as well.
That could be a very interesting project. It is unfortunate that the array of available detail parts for steam is somewhat more restricted now than it was a decade or two ago.
One thought that might save some time - the Indiana Harbor Belt 0-8-0 from AHM/Rivarossi is seen regularly at swap meets, often in junk boxes because of the old tender drive or the oversize flanges that AHM/Rivarossi insisted on. Indeed sometimes I see just the boiler/cab casting and tender being sold. The cab might not be helpful, but the boiler body itself might have some promise for coming close to the heft of that TRRA 0-8-0. They both have in common that they seem a generation beyond USRA. Another possible source for 0-8-0 fodder is the unlikely Tyco Chattanooga Choo Choo trainset engine which put a USRA 0-8-0 sort of boiler on a 2-8-0 chassis. Forget the chassis and strip off the excess paint off the Tyco boiler and there might be usable stuff there. I know of other kitbashers who have done some very interesting things with that Tyco casting - and it too is commoly seen in junk piles cheap at swap meets.
The smokebox of the TRRA loco seems very long to me, in particular.
Dave Nelson
dknelson...That could be a very interesting project. It is unfortunate that the array of available detail parts for steam is somewhat more restricted now than it was a decade or two ago.....
Precision Scale has a wide array of detail parts available, and Bowser has pretty-well the complete line-up of Cal-Scale details. For the latter, I'm not speaking of only the stuff in their little yellow folder-type catalogue, but rather the complete line of detail parts which they made for the builders of brass in Japan and Korea. English' Model Railroad Supply, in Montoursville, has racks of such parts - multiple versions of ELESCo and Worthington feedwater heaters, cold water pumps of various prototypes, literally hundreds of detail parts. I usually spend at least a couple of hours browsing through such parts whenever I visit the store, and, as it's about 250 miles, one-way, from home, it's well-worth the drive.
The Rivarossi IHB boiler is a good suggestion, and even with its stock cab, could work quite well, as the much-longer TRRA cab could be built right over the existing cab, with anything of the original showing through the new windows simply carved-away. This makes for a much sturdier cab, an important consideration give the size of the TRRA window opening.I did so with this Bachmann Northern, added the scratchbuilt vestibule cab right over the original cab after sanding-off any protruding details...
I did, however, retain the original cab's roof, but made it removeable.
dknelson...The smokebox of the TRRA loco seems very long to me, in particular.
I agree, Dave. It almost makes me wonder if there's a Coffin fwh inside, although I don't see a cold water pump under the near side of the cab. The loco appears to have a top-feed check valve, though.