wjstixso generally first generation GPs, SDs, etc. had high short hoods,
SP and Phillip Dodge Copper Mine ordered low nosed GP9s..The SD24 (7/58-3/63) had the optional low hood as well.The SD24 predates the GP18 and GP20 which could be ordered with low hoods.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
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No, you can trace GE involvement with diesel locomotion all the way back to the beginning. The first Universal Series road locomotives were built in 1956, and the demonstrators for that Series were built in 1954. The GE partnership with Alco lasted from 1940-1953 before that. GE had many inputs to the diesel revolution that were behind the scenes, but significant to the development of diesel locomotion.
NHTX General Electric's first generation as a builder of road locomotives began with their Universal line of U-23, 25, 28, 30, 33 and 36 series units.
General Electric's first generation as a builder of road locomotives began with their Universal line of U-23, 25, 28, 30, 33 and 36 series units.
A general "rule of thumb" somebody came up with that works pretty well is that first generation diesels were engines bought to replace steam engines, and second generation diesels were engines bought to replace first generation diesels.
A good spotting tool - again, just as a general rule - is that the low-short-nose option starting becoming available about 1959, so generally first generation GPs, SDs, etc. had high short hoods, whereas second generation engines tended to have low short hoods...GP-30, RS-32, etc.
As far as EMD F-units, most all FT units were retired by the mid-late 1960's, having served around 20-25 years. Later F's were more durable, but visibility issues limited their use as road switchers, so they were often used as trade-ins for second generation engines. Still, BN used F-9's until the early 1980's, and the old Erie Mining Company F-9's ran in ore train service in northern Minnesota until 2001!
cx500Steam was finally gone and some of the earlier diesels were now quite obsolete in their technology.
Yet many still labor on for industries,terminal roads and short lines.
Careful! Some short lines still used steam into the mid 60s with one short line using a 3 truck Shay into the 70s..
NYBW-JohnFor EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier.
Not all F units are first generation, F45s are not nor are F59PHI etc. First generation EMD locos have small numbers like F7 or GP9.
John, as far as Iknow there are no hard, fast written rules as to what defines the various "generations" of diesel locomotives by a given builder. I agree with your assessment of EMD. With the unveiling of their first turbocharged units, the GP-20 and SD-24, they aggressively touted them as replacements for the remaining FT, F-2 and F-3s under the banner of unit reduction via increased horsepower. To me that signifies a generational change brough about by following 567 powered units in the 30 and 35 lines. The 645 engine was the third generation, and the 710 is the fourth. After the 710, I lost interest. As far as Alco is concerned, for me, their second generation pretty much coincided with EMD's. When they began marketing 2000 hp (RS-32) and 2400 hp (RS-27 and RSD-15) models to remain competitive with EMD, this ushered in their second generation. Alco's Century series marked the third generation as well as their demise as a locomotive builder. General Electric's first generation as a builder of road locomotives began with their Universal line of U-23, 25, 28, 30, 33 and 36 series units. The -7 line was second generation which was succeded by the dash-8 third genreration which gave birth to the -9 line as fourth. Fairbanks-Morse, Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton, and any others considering a road locomotive offering did not make it much beyond 1960 and closed out their locomotive lines without offering anything to compete with EMD, faltering Alco, and upstart GE revolutionary changes of the 1959-1963 timeframe. There was no second generation for FM, BLH, etc.
As you can see, there is no certain definition. Another approach is to look at when trading in old locomotives for new ones became popular. That would tend to put the date in the early 1960s when the GP30 and Alco's Century series appeared. Steam was finally gone and some of the earlier diesels were now quite obsolete in their technology.
This might help more since it has the production dates..
Alco
http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco%20Data-Index.HTML
Baldwin.
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataBLWIndex.HTML
Fairbanks Moris
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataFMIndex.HTML
EMD
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataEMDIndex.HTML
Lima Hamilton.
http://www.thedieselshop.us/LH_Switchers.HTML
There are several possible answers.
Bruce Butler on another Forum says:
:From my limited experience as an Engineer, I would suggest this:1st generation: E and F units and geeps and SD's thru GP201.5 generation: EMD GP30 & GP35 and all GE "U" series.2nd generation: all with 645 engine, mostly GP40, SD40, 1966-19722.5 generation: the EMD -2 line and early GE "C" series3rd generation: The EMD 60 series, beginning with the 710 engine, and GE's dash 7 series.3.5 generation: Early EMD 70 series and GE's dash 8 series4th generation: EMD SD70ACE, SD70M-2, GE dash 9 and EVO models"
For EMD Bruse makes the replacement of the 567 engine with the 645 the cutoff between 1st generation and 2nd generation. Others say the introduction of turbogharers on the 567 engine. By this criteria the GP20 would be 2nd generation. Articles on the GP 35 which has a 567 engine often say it is 2nd generation.
Under what appears to be the most common usage of the term 2nd generation," the locomotives that replaced the 1st generation ", Bruces 1.5 generation would be included in the 2nd generation.
1st Generation: EMD loco models that went into production before 1961 would be 1st generation. Probably could use the same date for other companies.
http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRdieselchrono.html
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
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I kindasorta know what diesels are considered first generation but I'm not sure my perceptions are accurate. Just what differentiates first generation from second generation. For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier. Alco first generation extends through RS3. Am I right so far. I have no clue when it comes to other makes. Can someone shed some light on this?