Personally, I always considered the Box Cab Diesels as the first production generation.
Dennis
Heap-Big Chief Engineer & COO
None other than Trains Magazine Editor David P. Morgan used the term second generation diesels in his book Diesels West. That book was published in 1963 before Extra 2200 South became common.
Ed,That should be X2200 South..Also the "phase" term was coin in the same magazine to tell the detail difference in the first,second or third production run of the same locomotive.
Again railroads or the builders do not use "phase".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Ed,As I already stated railroads nor builders use "generation"... The term was coin in X200 South magazine as a mean to separate the different era of diesels.
Ed,As I already stated railroads nor builders use "generation"... The term was coin in X200 South magazine as a mean to separate the different era of diesels.
So you did. And it's nice to find the source of the term. Perhaps the back issues of the magazine could provide a finer definition of the term. Of course, definitions do drift and change.
Ed
7j43kI wonder if the term "generation", as used here, was ever used by locomotive manufacturers and/or railroads and/or railroad employees.
I wonder if the term "generation", as used here, was ever used by locomotive manufacturers and/or railroads and/or railroad employees.
If not, then it was invented by railfans and/or modelers, for their own purposes. And it was apparently not done by a "defining authority". So there's going to be a variety of views on the matter, based on need and experience.
It's nice to talk about the concept, and exchange ideas. But, for now, there does not seem to be an "official" definition. So searching for one will be unrewarding. Except for the search.
HaroldSNext wopuld be modular, solid-state controls, and then probably AC traction motors. Somewhere in there was the start of the third generation.
The only problem with that criteria is that GE introduced modular electronics on the U25B in 1959 and Alco followed suit with the Century series in the early 1960's. EMD didn't used modular electronics until the "-2" lines came out in the early 1970s.
HaroldSI always thought the generations were defined by technology, rather than looks.
More reasonable criteria than cosmetic differance in appearance.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
I always thought the generations were defined by technology, rather than looks. The second generation diesels started with the U-25s with their sealed, pressurized carbodies. For EMD that would make the GP30 second gen, and for ALCO the Century series.
The next big tech jump was alternator-rectifier electrics, which for all three builders was when they went to 3000 hp. One could argue that that marked the start of the 2nd generation.
Next wopuld be modular, solid-state controls, and then probably AC traction motors. Somewhere in there was the start of the third generation.
Alcos can be a bit difficult, because at least in the 1940's-50's they had a different philosophy than EMD did. For example, when EMD introduced the GP-9, they stopped making GP-7s. Because there often were backlogs from the time engines were ordered until they were built, it could happen that a railroad would order 20 GP-7s or F-3s, and get GP-9s or F-7s instead. Alco introduced the RS-1 in 1941, and continued building them until I believe 1959, so in 1958 a railroad could buy new RS-1, RS-2, RS-3 and/or RS-11 engines.
Also, although the RS-11 was introduced late in 1st generation production (1957), it really was Alco's answer to the GP-7/GP-9, with a high short hood and similar overall appearance. I'd consider RS-11s Alco's last 1st gen diesel rather than 1st 2nd generation, but it is kinda on the border between the two generations.
I think it us safe to say that locomotives that started production before 1961 are 1st generation designs, those that started production 1961 and later 2nd generation designs. The 3rd generation started in 1989.
With a couple exceptions that fit better in 1st generation locos which started production through 1936 could be called Pioneer.
http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRdieselchrono.html
Agreed. I think Joe Strapac said same thing about GP30s beginning 2nd gen diesels. Part of his discussion involve replacement units for 1st gen to make horsepowers gains. The GP20s for example were passed over by the DRGW as not increasing HP enough over the F7s they were replacing.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I'm with Larry, this is the way it was always portrayed in the model and railfan press - first gen stopped with the introduction of the GP30 and U25. Second gen can be harder - the -2 series makes a good cutoff but the X models had many of the -2 features and were testbeds for the new technology.
As for obsolete - SMS still uses first gen Baldwin switchers - with original prime movers, not EMD re-motored. Delaware-Lackawanna uses Alcos of all sorts, including RS3's. And the other week while driving out to my weekly assignment in Buffalo, I happened to glance over and there paralleling the highway just outside of Bath was a second gen Alco leading a Bath & Hammondsport train. Pretty sure it was 416, an RS18u.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If your modeling the transition era, the time frame could start at 1948 and the cutoff point would be 1973 or 1974.
I sympathize with those who say the first generation began with the early boxcabs, and that the era of production models (FT, E6, and DL109) constituted a new generation when they were introduced in the late 1930's and early 1940's. However, the consensus seems to be that the first generation encompasses the entire early diesel period prior to the beginning of the high horsepower era, when the focus was on replacing steam with whatever worked. That would mean the second generation began with the GE U25B, EMD GP30, and Alco Century series. The early Alco DL series, including the RS11, were rough contemporaries of the EMD SD9 and GP9, and even though they had a new carbody, they were part of the earlier generation in most respects. As for the next generation, whether you call it the second or third, all of the other builders dropped out and didn't participate meaningfully. If any BLW or F-M diesels were built in the 60's, they weren't numerous. Lima Hamilton was long gone from the market.
Tom
First generation ended in the late 30's
Did you mean begun?
Noted author Joesph Strapac has even discussed where the boundaries of 1st and 2nd lie and it's debated among the movers and shakers too. I have a comfort level as far as EMD goes.
NYBW-John I kindasorta know what diesels are considered first generation but I'm not sure my perceptions are accurate. Just what differentiates first generation from second generation. For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier. Alco first generation extends through RS3. Am I right so far. I have no clue when it comes to other makes. Can someone shed some light on this?
I kindasorta know what diesels are considered first generation but I'm not sure my perceptions are accurate. Just what differentiates first generation from second generation. For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier. Alco first generation extends through RS3. Am I right so far. I have no clue when it comes to other makes. Can someone shed some light on this?
IMO, it goes by body style more than prime mover.
EMD 1st generation has the rounded cab roof, so the GP18 and the GP20, the turboed 567, would be 1st generation. The square cab starts the secend Gen. So the GP30 and GP35 are second generation eventhough they still have a 567. And the GP38 is still second generation eventhough it gets the 645.
Rounded cab or square cab.
For Alco, the 1st gen stops with the RS3 and second gen starts with the RS11, which are totally different body styles. The prime movers change too, to the 251 with the RS11, but their Century series could also be considered second generation, eventhough it was a different body than the RS11, and 32/36
GEs I'm not sure about. They were a bit of a late comer to the market, so I consider their U boats starting off at asecond generation diesel.
- Douglas
rrebell First generation ended in the late 30's. This is my era. What I have been having trouble finding is when second generation put out their demonstrators, finding production details is easy but real data on the demonstrators is hard to find.
First generation ended in the late 30's. This is my era. What I have been having trouble finding is when second generation put out their demonstrators, finding production details is easy but real data on the demonstrators is hard to find.
BigDaddy ATSFGuy It seems certain modelers like the old school stuff. Does anybody model the 1990-2007 timeframe? It would be interesting to see a poll of the age distribution of members. I am 65 and started serious modeling in the late 80's. I still had fond memories of my father taking me to NYC on the PRR to the old Penn Station. In the 90's I took my kids to horseshoe curve, Cass Railway, Durango. I see an exact parallel with music. My love of Rap music began and immediately ended with the Revolution Will Not Be Televised. I grew up with rock & roll and Motown. I missed Disco and everything beyond. That includes the ES44AC's
ATSFGuy It seems certain modelers like the old school stuff. Does anybody model the 1990-2007 timeframe?
It would be interesting to see a poll of the age distribution of members. I am 65 and started serious modeling in the late 80's. I still had fond memories of my father taking me to NYC on the PRR to the old Penn Station. In the 90's I took my kids to horseshoe curve, Cass Railway, Durango.
I see an exact parallel with music. My love of Rap music began and immediately ended with the Revolution Will Not Be Televised. I grew up with rock & roll and Motown. I missed Disco and everything beyond. That includes the ES44AC's
Although I had a second hand 4x8 roundy-round when I was a kid, I didn't get back into the hobby and take it seriously until 1977 when I built my first of three layouts, each in a different home. I am not 65 and have been working on the current layout since 2001. I pike is a basement filling freelanced eastern railroad which operates in northern NJ and the southern tier of NY.
My favorite memories of real railroading were the trips to Burlington Station in Omaha to greet or say goodbye to visiting relatives from Chicago. One time our family was the one taking the train and it was over the 1959/60 holidays to Chicago with a side trip to Milwaukee on the North Shore.
I suppose one could say the GE AMD 103/P40/P42 or the EMD F59PHI are modern cab units.
(shrugs) I'll just call them by their model name.
NYBW-John Lone Wolf and Santa Fe NYBW-John For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier. Not all F units are first generation, F45s are not nor are F59PHI etc. First generation EMD locos have small numbers like F7 or GP9. You're right. I forgot all about the F45 being an F unit. I was thinking the F-units ended with the F9.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe NYBW-John For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier. Not all F units are first generation, F45s are not nor are F59PHI etc. First generation EMD locos have small numbers like F7 or GP9.
NYBW-John For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier.
Not all F units are first generation, F45s are not nor are F59PHI etc. First generation EMD locos have small numbers like F7 or GP9.
You're right. I forgot all about the F45 being an F unit. I was thinking the F-units ended with the F9.
If you go by Kirkland's rules he expounded in "Dawn of the Diesel Age" the first generation ended in 1938. That makes the Alco/GE/IR boxcabs the Westinghouse Boxcabs and Visibility Cabs the EMDs SC, NC, B&O boxcabs and ATSF boxcab and the like first generation. According to him the second generation starts with the FT, RS1 and the like.
SeeYou190I don't know the cut-of for first generation diesels, but it must be after 1954, so that is all I can have. . -Kevin
Kevin,I'm in the group that says the GP30/U25B was the start of the second generation since everything changed and the cab unit gave way to four and six axle locomotives. The -2s was the start of the third generation.
Of course there was no offical generation change by the builders..
BigDaddyIt would be interesting to see a poll of the age distribution of members. I am 65 and started serious modeling in the late 80's.
.
I am 49 and also began serious modeling in the late 80's. I model first generation diesels and USRA steam locomotives.
I don't know the cut-of for first generation diesels, but it must be after 1954, so that is all I can have.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATSFGuyIt seems certain modelers like the old school stuff. Does anybody model the 1990-2007 timeframe?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
It seems certain modelers like the old school stuff.
Does anybody model the 1990-2007 timeframe?