I found the photo of the Illinois Central Gulf Geep hauling woodchip hoppers on page 57 of the current MRR mag. interesting. But curious as to why the caboose is coupled up between the hoppers and the locomotive?
Thanks and regards, Peter
I can't speak as to why in this instance, but on some railroads back in the old days there was a second caboose behind the locomotive in addition to one on the end of the train to make things easier for crews on local freights and switch jobs. Saved the boys a long hike to the end of the train and made things a bit more efficient for car set-outs and pick-ups.
Goes without saying this was in the days when trains crews might consist of five or six crewmen.
It could be that it was a rather short haul and "not worth the effort" to switch the caboose to the end of train.............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
When I was a brakeman we did that a lot to save tie when we made a runaround and headed back to the yard. We placed a red flag on the last car as a marker.
Here's another once common practice on urban locals..We would place the pickups behind the cabin with a red flag for a marker.. Again this was to save time when we made our runaround and headed back to the yard.
BTW..Some old head conductors called the red flag a marker flag while others called it red flag protection.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Firelock76 Saved the boys a long hike to the end of the train and made things a bit more efficient for car set-outs and pick-ups.
If I may? There was no need to make that long hike since all we would need to do is swing off the cabin/caboose and stop the movement where we needed to make the cut.
If there was a need we would,make a stop,check coupler alinement,couple,connect the air hose,turn on the air line angle cocks,release the handbrakes and shove those cars back to where we needed to make the next cut.
Very interesting getting an education from hands-on guys. Assuming that an urban local would finish the setting out & picking up with time to return to the yard in one shift would hauling a caboose along be for crew shelter/comfort and safety?
Thanks again, regards, Peter
HO-Velo Assuming that an urban local would finish the setting out & picking up with time to return to the yard in one shift would hauling a caboose along be for crew shelter/comfort and safety?
Yes,When I worked on the PRR/PC(66-69) the normal crew size was engineer,fireman,head brakeman,rear brakeman and conductor so,with a 5 man crew a cabin was needed. Some roads used a flagman as well which made a 6 man crew.. Also depending on the various Company/Brotherhood work agreements a local over 30 cars in length could require a extra brakeman.
A engine cab had three seats,the fireman's,engineer's and a fold down seat for the head brakeman. If we had two units then the brakeman would ride the trailing unit looking back over the train for problems..
BTW.The cabin/caboose lacked creature comforts since the toilet bowl was used to store extra fusees,batteries for our Starlite lanterns or tools.
Some times those old N6B cabins would be out of coal or the N5 class cabins would have no fuel oil.
BRAKIE Firelock76 Saved the boys a long hike to the end of the train and made things a bit more efficient for car set-outs and pick-ups. If I may? There was no need to make that long hike since all we would need to do is swing off the cabin/caboose and stop the movement where we needed to make the cut. If there was a need we would,make a stop,check coupler alinement,couple,connect the air hose,turn on the air line angle cocks,release the handbrakes and shove those cars back to where we needed to make the next cut.
Oh no doubt of that. The reason I made the comment I did was because I'd seen some photos of Nickle Plate trains in the steam era with two cabooses and the author gave the reason for as what I said in my comment.
Different 'roads, different procedures.
Firelock76Oh no doubt of that. The reason I made the comment I did was because I'd seen some photos of Nickle Plate trains in the steam era with two cabooses and the author gave the reason for as what I said in my comment. Different 'roads, different procedures.
On the PRR some times we would do the same a cabin on both ends,some times one in the middle so we wouldn't need to drag a long local up a second industrial lead off the lead we was working.
Another oddity was to have the engine in the middle of the train we did that because of the facing and trailing point switches and the lead was stubbed end due to a damage bridge PRR elected not to fix because there was no customers beyond the bridge...The only tunaround was on the other side of the damage bridge.
Interesting! It's a rare day I don't learn something new and "railroady" on this and the other Kalmbach sites.
I'm not a real railroader but I'm interested in shortlines and branch lines.
That pic is probably showing what's part of a switching move, maybe an extended run a few miles from the woodchip loader, and it was within rules to not rearrange the train for a short run. Its a short train. Its a GP10.
Its really not comparable to the two caboose example, which would more likely involve a much longer train over many miles.
- Douglas
Thing is, we've become so indocrinated to the idea that the 'train' is engine, a bunch of cars, and a caboose bringing up the rear that it just seems 'wrong' to have the caboose anywhere else. That's fine for a nice through freight that gets made up in one yard and goes straight on to the next one. Those locals and small branch line jobs though - totally different. There just aren't as many pictures of that work, so when one does show up it's just odd looking.
Surprised they got away with no working toilet - although even if not used as extra fusee storage it may not have worked anyway in those days. On this end of the PRR, it was actually a state law in PA that caboose cars had to have working sanitary facilities. That law was of course opposed by the railroads because when it passed, they had to work out rebuilding schedules to add toilets to the caboose fleet. It's mentioned in the book I have on Reading cabooses; I think it declared that any caboose operating with a crew in the Commonwealth had to have facilities. So even if it was a railroad that just briefly touched parts of PA, the caboose had to be equipped (like B&O south of Philadelphia or up towards Erie), not just railroads that operated in the state like PRR and Reading.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Firelock76Saved the boys a long hike to the end of the train and made things a bit more efficient for car set-outs and pick-ups.
Not if they wanted to comply with federal law and the railroad rules.
Any time they made a pick up or set out, before they departed they had to make sure that they had adequate air pressure on the rear car and then brakes set and released.
So technically anytime they set out or picked up a car they would have to either walk back a brakeman with a hand held guage or drop off a brakeman, pull the whole train by, make the set and release, then shove the train back to pick up the brakeman.
In reality its much quicker to do that with a caboose.
Plus if they were in any type of territory other than CTC, if they were meeting another train and didn't hold the main, or coming out of any track onto another track, they would have to drop off a brakeman, pull out of the track, restore the switch to normal position, then shove back to pick up the brakeman, or wait til he walks up. If the train was longer, they wouldn't be able to shove back because they would be making a blind shove.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Firelock76 Saved the boys a long hike to the end of the train and made things a bit more efficient for car set-outs and pick-ups. Not if they wanted to comply with federal law and the railroad rules. Any time they made a pick up or set out, before they departed they had to make sure that they had adequate air pressure on the rear car and then brakes set and released. So technically anytime they set out or picked up a car they would have to either walk back a brakeman with a hand held guage or drop off a brakeman, pull the whole train by, make the set and release, then shove the train back to pick up the brakeman. In reality its much quicker to do that with a caboose.
And yet,we put the cabin behind the engine dozens of times with a red flag on the last car.We also placed our pickups behind the cabin several times over and was still in compliance.
Even today some short lines doesn't use a FRED and they are still in compliance.
There has to be a rule exception/modification some where or those short lines wouldn't be in compliance.
Interesting to know these things from a modeling perspective. On my model railroad (an ISL, as Brakie has coined the acronym), the "rule" is a requirement to have a caboose on the leading end of a train, as much of the operation is push-pull, and there are sharp turns on the main, in "dark" territory (i. e. no signals), allowing the crew better vision when rounding these turns.
E-L man tomOn my model railroad (an ISL, as Brakie has coined the acronym), the "rule" is a requirement to have a caboose on the leading end of a train, as much of the operation is push-pull, and there are sharp turns on the main, in "dark" territory (i. e. no signals), allowing the crew better vision when rounding these turns.
And some times a poor chap has to ride the side of a car..The CF&E conductor does this when they make a reverse move from Whetstone Street to the NS in order to switch Transco. That's a quarter of a mile from the signal at Whetstone then around the Northeast leg of the wye and onto the NS.. They exit NS trackage by the Southeast leg of the wye with the conductor riding the last car. GWI now owns CF&E maybe they will get that conductor a caboose.
The Wye is NS trackage,and then NS has trackage rights over the CF&E.
BRAKIEThere has to be a rule exception/modification some where or those short lines wouldn't be in compliance.
Nope. Federal Power Brake Law. Note the portions that refer to the "rear car". If there is an EOTD with a telemetry devce, the telemetry can be used to determine the pressures.
49.CFR 232.209 Class II brake inspection:
Relevant part:
(b) A Class II brake test shall consist of the following tasks and requirements:
(1) Brake pipe leakage shall not exceed 5 psi per minute, or air flow shall not exceed 60 cubic feet per minute (CFM). The brake pipe leakage test or air flow method test shall be conducted on the entire train pursuant to the requirements contained in § 232.205(c)(1);
(2) The air brake system shall be charged to the pressure at which the train will be operated, and the pressure at the rear of the train shall be within 15 psi of the pressure at which the train will be operated, but not less than 75 psi, as indicated by an accurate gauge or end-of-train device at the rear end of train;
(3) The brakes on each car added to the train and on the rear car of the train shall be inspected to ensure that they apply in response to a 20-psi brake pipe service reduction and remain applied until the release is initiated from the controlling locomotive. A car found with brakes that fail to apply or remain applied may be retested and remain in the train if the retest is conducted as prescribed in § 232.205(c)(4); otherwise, the defective equipment may only be moved pursuant to the provisions of § 232.15, if applicable;
(4) When the release is initiated, the brakes on each car added to the train and on the rear car of the train shall be inspected to verify that they did release; this may be performed by a “roll-by” inspection. If a “roll-by” inspection of the brake release is performed, train speed shall not exceed 10 MPH, and the qualified person performing the “roll-by” inspection shall communicate the results of the inspection to the operator of the train; and
(5) Before the train proceeds the operator of the train shall know that the brake pipe pressure at the rear of the train is being restored.
Back in the day, when I worked on a class 1 railroad we would have to go out and test the crews to make sure they were performing the required tests. I tested with one Road Foreman of Engines who had rigged up a head end device to operate off the cigarette lighter in a car. When we would go testing, we would have a trainmaster driving (me) and one or more road foremen, one RFE in the car running the head end device and the other (if there) in position to observe the off side of the cars, so we could see exactly what the crews were seeing when they did their brake tests.
The vast majority of crews complied with the rules and operated their trains safely.
Before all the "weed weasel" comments start, just remember Lac Megantic (which was a failure to comply with air brakeand train handling rules) happened on a railroad that had a lax testing program. I know managers on class 1 railroads that were fired for not performing their required rules tests.
Dave, You say nope but,then how does short lines manage to run 15 car trains with no FRED?
There's gotta be a rule exception in the books or those short lines wouldn't be in compliance..Then how about when we had the cabin behind the engine with no more then a red flag bringing up the rear?
I have no answer other then what we did on the PRR and observed while visiting short lines.
BRAKIEYou say nope but,then how does short lines manage to run 15 car trains with no FRED?
They do a brake test IAW the CFR. The rule does not say that a FRED is required, only that it is an option. The other option is an accurate guage installed for the brake test.
BRAKIEI have no answer other then what we did on the PRR
Possibly the CFRs have changed in the past 40years?
Well here is the first part of the rules that was excerpted, which may explain what you observed:
(a) At a location other than the initial terminal of a train, a Class II brake test shall be performed by a qualified person, as defined in § 232.5, on the following equipment when added to a train:
(1) Each car or solid block of cars, as defined in § 232.5, that has not previously received a Class I brake test or that has been off air for more than four hours;
(2) Each solid block of cars, as defined in § 232.5, that is comprised of cars from more than one previous train; and
(3) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4) of this section, each solid block of cars that is comprised of cars from only one previous train, the cars of which have not remained continuously and consecutively coupled together with the train line remaining connected since being removed from the previous train. A solid block of cars is considered to have remained continuously and consecutively coupled together with the train line remaining connected since being removed from the previous train if it has been changed only by removing defective equipment.
(4) Each solid block of cars that is comprised of cars from a single previous train, the cars of which were required to be separated into multiple solid blocks of cars due to space or trackage constraints at a particular location when removed from the previous train, if they are not added in the same relative order as when removed from the previous train or if the cars in each of the multiple blocks of cars have not remained continuously and consecutively coupled together with the train line remaining connected, except for the removal of defective equipment.
From 49 CFR 232.407
(e)Exceptions. The following types of trains are excepted from the requirement for the use of a two-way end-of-train device:
(1) Trains with a locomotive or locomotive consist located at the rear of the train that is capable of making an emergency brake application, through a command effected by telemetry or by a crew member in radio contact with the controlling locomotive;
(2) Trains operating in the push mode with the ability to effectuate an emergency brake application from the rear of the train;
(3) Trains with an operational caboose placed at the rear of the train, carrying one or more crew members in radio contact with the controlling locomotive, that is equipped with an emergency brake valve;
(4) Trains operating with a secondary, fully independent braking system capable of safely stopping the train in the event of failure of the primary system;
(5) Trains that do not operate over heavy grades and do not exceed 30 mph;
(6) Local trains, as defined in paragraph (a)(3) of this section, that do not operate over heavy grades;
(7) Work trains, as defined in paragraph (a)(4) of this section, that do not operate over heavy grades;
(8) Trains that operate exclusively on track that is not part of the general railroad system;
(9) Trains that must be divided into two sections in order to traverse a grade (e.g., doubling a hill). This exception applies only to the extent necessary to traverse the grade and only while thetrain is divided in two for such purpose;
(10) Passenger trains in which all of the cars in the train are equipped with an emergency brake valve readily accessible to a crew member;
(11) Passenger trains that have a car at the rear of the train, readily accessible to one or more crew members in radio contact with the engineer, that is equipped with an emergency brake valve readily accessible to such a crew member; and
(12) Passenger trains that have twenty-four (24) or fewer cars (not including locomotives) in the consist and that are equipped and operated in accordance with the following train-configuration and operating requirements:
(i) If the total number of cars in a passenger train consist is twelve (12) or fewer, a car located no less than halfway through the consist (counting from the first car in the train) must be equipped with an emergency brake valve readily accessible to a crew member;
(ii) If the total number of cars in a passenger train consist is thirteen (13) to twenty-four (24), a car located no less than two-thirds ( 2/3) of the way through the consist (counting from the first car in the train) must be equipped with an emergency brake valve readily accessible to a crew member;
(iii) Prior to descending a section of track with an average grade of two percent or greater over a distance of two continuous miles, the engineer of the train shall communicate with the conductor, to ensure that a member of the crew with a working two-way radio is stationed in the car with the rearmost readily accessible emergency brake valve on the train when the trainbegins its descent; and
(iv) While the train is descending a section of track with an average grade of two percent or greater over a distance of two continuous miles, a member of the train crew shall occupy the car that contains the rearmost readily accessible emergency brake valve on the train and be in constant radio communication with the locomotive engineer. The crew member shall remain in this car until the train has completely traversed the heavy grade.
Thank you very much.You're da man.
That explains a lot especially how short lines stay in compliance.I notice several short lines I have visited didn't display a red flag on the end of the train but,I can understand that since that was the only train on the line.
Yes, a lot of rules has changed since I left the Chessie(C&O) in '84 thanks to old ready Freddy and another observation is there's a lot more peeking Tommies in the brushes just waiting to pounce on some hapless crew for some minor rule infraction..
E-L man tom Interesting to know these things from a modeling perspective. On my model railroad (an ISL, as Brakie has coined the acronym), the "rule" is a requirement to have a caboose on the leading end of a train, as much of the operation is push-pull, and there are sharp turns on the main, in "dark" territory (i. e. no signals), allowing the crew better vision when rounding these turns.
And if you run caboose first often enough, you rig up lights. (okay, its a canadian scenic RR but its interesting nevertheless)
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2225407
BMMECNYCFrom 49 CFR 232.407 (e)Exceptions. The following types of trains are excepted from the requirement for the use of a two-way end-of-train device:
This has NOTHING to do with the brake test.
All this explains are the exemptions to the requirement for a two way telemetry device (a device that can initiate an emergency application of the brakes as well as relay brake pipe information). It does not give any exemptions from an initial or intermediate brake test.
BMMECNYCPossibly the CFRs have changed in the past 40years?
They have, but not substantially from the current rules from the standpoint of knowing there is air pressure on the rear car. I checked a 1976 air brake rule book and it still said essentially the same thing as the current rules.
What the class 1 I worked for required was, if there was no occupied caboose or a EOT that transmitted the brake pipe pressure, a trainmain would have to go back to the rear of the cut and use a hand held test device (a glad hand with an air guage on it).
There are different rules for "transfer cuts", but doing work enroute is not a transfer cut and the trip has to be less than 20 miles.
dehusmanThere are different rules for "transfer cuts", but doing work enroute is not a transfer cut and the trip has to be less than 20 miles.
So,you are saying all short lines longer then 20 miles are in violation then since they don't use a FRED and does enroute industry switching?
dehusman BMMECNYC From 49 CFR 232.407 (e)Exceptions. The following types of trains are excepted from the requirement for the use of a two-way end-of-train device: This has NOTHING to do with the brake test. All this explains are the exemptions to the requirement for a two way telemetry device (a device that can initiate an emergency application of the brakes as well as relay brake pipe information). It does not give any exemptions from an initial or intermediate brake test.
BMMECNYC From 49 CFR 232.407 (e)Exceptions. The following types of trains are excepted from the requirement for the use of a two-way end-of-train device:
Larry,
I never said that it did. I was just pointing out that you dont need a FRED.
Brakie said (paraphrasing) How do shortlines manage to run 15 car trains w/out a fred?
The exceptions above is the how. Nothing at all to do with an airbrake test.
As far as the air brake test, he may not have witnessed it if he watching a solid block of cars picked up in interchange from a single previous train that had been off air for less than 4 hours. If I am reading that rule correctly.
BMMECNYC BRAKIE You say nope but,then how does short lines manage to run 15 car trains with no FRED? They do a brake test IAW the CFR. The rule does not say that a FRED is required, only that it is an option. The other option is an accurate guage installed for the brake test.
BRAKIE You say nope but,then how does short lines manage to run 15 car trains with no FRED?
See, I said exactly the same thing. Still needs an airbrake test at somepoint.
As a side note, could you point me to that rule in the CFRs. This is all very interesting. 49 CFR 232.215...
Also is there a list of exceptions somewhere? When picking up a cut of cars, or a single car, do you perform the airbrake test only on the cars being picked up before coupling to the rest of the train, or do you couple to the whole train then do the test?
I know it says "when added to the train" but can that be legally interpereted as when the locomotive and one car is coupled to the cut or single car?
Edit: Nevermind, 209 b (3) is kinda clear on that.
BMMECNYCAs far as the air brake test, he may not have witnessed it if he watching a solid block of cars picked up in interchange from a single previous train that had been off air for less than 4 hours. If I am reading that rule correctly.
I have followed Ashland Ry, Ashtabula, Carson & Jefferson and R.J.Corman trains as they went about their business of working industries along their route and not once did the conductor walk to the end of the train after picking up or settng off a car.
He reconnected the airhose and released the hand brakes then returned to the engine.
I fully understood the exceptions that you posted and knew there was a initial air test.
The Dave said:There are different rules for "transfer cuts", but doing work enroute is not a transfer cut and the trip has to be less than 20 miles.
That doesn't jave with the short lines I have chased and observed as they went about their work over the last 25 years.