NYBW-John:
Didn't the Mt. Vernon depot serve the PRR as well, until the Cleveland - Columbus service ended in the early 1950's? I seem to recall that the station faced the PRR tracks, and was at an angle to the B&O. Do I have that wrong?
Tom
hon30critter What does 'LCL' stand for, if I can ask? EDIT: Just figured it out I think. "Less than Car Load"? Dave
What does 'LCL' stand for, if I can ask?
EDIT: Just figured it out I think. "Less than Car Load"?
Dave
Go to the head of the class!
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Colorado_Mac I know I'm "late to the party", but the town I grew up in on the B&O Metropolitan branch had a small passenger station and a small freight house. Actually, both so small that if they had been combined into one building it would have still been small. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rockville_MD_B%26O_station_1978.jpg Population in 1950 almost 7000.
I know I'm "late to the party", but the town I grew up in on the B&O Metropolitan branch had a small passenger station and a small freight house. Actually, both so small that if they had been combined into one building it would have still been small. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rockville_MD_B%26O_station_1978.jpg
Population in 1950 almost 7000.
Here's the B&O station in Mt. Vernon, OH about 10 miles north of where I live. It's been renovated and repurposed as an art gallery.
http://arielfoundationpark.org/index.php/explore-the-park/b-o-depot
This branch of the B&O used to run all the way north to Sandusky but it now belongs to the Ohio Central which tore up the tracks just a few hundred feet north of the station. The branch now serves the grain elevators on the south side of the street across from the station.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
jecorbettGreat find, Larry. Our family moved to Columbus in 1966 but I didn't spend much time downtown until I started working there in 1977.
Knowing what I know now I regret not spending more time in that area.All to sadly all of those 59 and 60 era photos and slides was lost in the Bucyrus flood back in '07 as well as 3,000 other slides,videos and photos taken over a life time of railfaning.
End of the Union station platforms was the ideal place to railfan and there was usually 3 or more railfans there and far more on Saturday mornings.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE jecorbett If I am understanding how you are describing it, It sounds like the B&O freighthouse was between the 3rd and 4th St viaducts which is now parking for the Convention Center. Would the PRR freighthouse be on the east side of 4th St where Ross Labs now sits. That would be correct. 50 years ago all of that paved area was railroad I remember it well as I do the Front street bridge when it cross PRR,NYC,and B&O tracks. The C&O fright house was just West of Front Street and was another one of my railfan sites even though it was Pattons Warehouse by 1960. Here is a 1949 aerial map of what we called the Union Station freight house complex. When I started going their around '55 the area look the same. I was 7 years old at the time and much to my Mother's disapproval but,times was simpler and safer back then. http://www.columbusrailroads.com/new/utility/display_html.php?color_primary=99&color_secondary=176&color_text=173+%28should+often+be+173+WHITE+or+176+BLACK%29%0A&header_photo=w_cbls_aerial-150.jpg%0A&htmltitle=Columbus+Union+Station&file=.%2Flive%2F05Steam_Railroads%2F21Aerial_Photos%2Faerial_cus_1949.htm As added BTW. As you look through those aerial maps recall those areas was "my playground".
jecorbett If I am understanding how you are describing it, It sounds like the B&O freighthouse was between the 3rd and 4th St viaducts which is now parking for the Convention Center. Would the PRR freighthouse be on the east side of 4th St where Ross Labs now sits.
That would be correct. 50 years ago all of that paved area was railroad I remember it well as I do the Front street bridge when it cross PRR,NYC,and B&O tracks. The C&O fright house was just West of Front Street and was another one of my railfan sites even though it was Pattons Warehouse by 1960.
Here is a 1949 aerial map of what we called the Union Station freight house complex. When I started going their around '55 the area look the same. I was 7 years old at the time and much to my Mother's disapproval but,times was simpler and safer back then.
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/new/utility/display_html.php?color_primary=99&color_secondary=176&color_text=173+%28should+often+be+173+WHITE+or+176+BLACK%29%0A&header_photo=w_cbls_aerial-150.jpg%0A&htmltitle=Columbus+Union+Station&file=.%2Flive%2F05Steam_Railroads%2F21Aerial_Photos%2Faerial_cus_1949.htm
As added BTW. As you look through those aerial maps recall those areas was "my playground".
Great find, Larry. Our family moved to Columbus in 1966 but I didn't spend much time downtown until I started working there in 1977. By then Conrail and Amtrak had taken over much of that railroading and area already looked quite a bit different and that was before they build the Convention Center over the old Union Station site. My one trip to Union Station was to drop my parents off for a trip to New York and since this was the Amtrak days, that was in the middle of the night so I didn't see much of the station. That sure is a lot of railroading packed into an area that really isn't big at all.
jecorbettIf I am understanding how you are describing it, It sounds like the B&O freighthouse was between the 3rd and 4th St viaducts which is now parking for the Convention Center. Would the PRR freighthouse be on the east side of 4th St where Ross Labs now sits.
BRAKIE jecorbett Right next to it I believe an old B&O building still stands and was being used as a dance studio/school. If I remember it was for Ballet Met. Do you know if that did belong to the B&O and what that building was used for? B&O's freight house was on 4th Street and Naughten St and was torn down for the "new" 3rd Street in the late 50s.. You might be looking what was left of B&O's produce yard and team tracks. These was still active in the 60s with declining business. I recall seeing lots of PFE reefers there in the 50s.There was a brick office building located there. One clarification..PRR's fright house was across from the B&Os to the East. Looking back I can see why I didn't have a "normal" childhood. Way to many exciting railroad locations to watch trains from. If I may share this tibet..Some of the coldest Coke I ever drank as a child came from the vending machine at PRRs freight house for 5 cents a bottle.. I would set on the steps and drink the coke then return the bottle..Nobody chased me off. I suppose they got use to seeing me hanging around the old 4th Street viaduct which gave a Birdseye view of the rail activity.
jecorbett Right next to it I believe an old B&O building still stands and was being used as a dance studio/school. If I remember it was for Ballet Met. Do you know if that did belong to the B&O and what that building was used for?
B&O's freight house was on 4th Street and Naughten St and was torn down for the "new" 3rd Street in the late 50s.. You might be looking what was left of B&O's produce yard and team tracks. These was still active in the 60s with declining business. I recall seeing lots of PFE reefers there in the 50s.There was a brick office building located there.
One clarification..PRR's fright house was across from the B&Os to the East.
Looking back I can see why I didn't have a "normal" childhood. Way to many exciting railroad locations to watch trains from.
If I may share this tibet..Some of the coldest Coke I ever drank as a child came from the vending machine at PRRs freight house for 5 cents a bottle.. I would set on the steps and drink the coke then return the bottle..Nobody chased me off. I suppose they got use to seeing me hanging around the old 4th Street viaduct which gave a Birdseye view of the rail activity.
I wonder if that Ballet Met Studio is B&O office building you mentioned.
If I am understanding how you are describing it, It sounds like the B&O freighthouse was between the 3rd and 4th St viaducts which is now parking for the Convention Center. Would the PRR freighthouse be on the east side of 4th St where Ross Labs now sits.
The old Smith Hardware building still stands north of there. I always thought it might make for an interesting scratchbuild structure with its curved loading dock. I think I read it was gutted by fire some time ago but was so solidly built it didn't need to be torn down. Last I hear it had been coverted to office space but the Smith Hardware sign is still there, apparently having been repainted since the lettering is very crisp.
dehusman BRAKIE By 1958 all was closed and all have been torn down since except the N&W freight house that burned down in '70. C&O's freight house became Pattons Warehouse a distributor of fine liquors and tobacco and Pattons required rail service... The UP's freight house in Omaha is now the Harriman Dispatching Center (several multi million dollar renovations later). It is historic in its own right, it was the location that the then bankrupt UP was sold to E.H. Harriman for $58 million at auction in the 1890's. But that does raise the point that if you are modeling the late 1950's or later, whether or not to have a freight house might be moot since the LCL business might be pretty much dried up. When I hired on in the late 1970's all the LCL business was being handled by the railroad's truck line (and air freight) subsidiary as TOFC business. If might be that if you are modeling the late 50's or beyond the question is was the freight house being used by the roadmaster, leased to a local company, was boarded up or was just a weed infested vacant lot or foundation left after the building was razed.
BRAKIE By 1958 all was closed and all have been torn down since except the N&W freight house that burned down in '70. C&O's freight house became Pattons Warehouse a distributor of fine liquors and tobacco and Pattons required rail service...
The UP's freight house in Omaha is now the Harriman Dispatching Center (several multi million dollar renovations later). It is historic in its own right, it was the location that the then bankrupt UP was sold to E.H. Harriman for $58 million at auction in the 1890's.
But that does raise the point that if you are modeling the late 1950's or later, whether or not to have a freight house might be moot since the LCL business might be pretty much dried up.
When I hired on in the late 1970's all the LCL business was being handled by the railroad's truck line (and air freight) subsidiary as TOFC business.
If might be that if you are modeling the late 50's or beyond the question is was the freight house being used by the roadmaster, leased to a local company, was boarded up or was just a weed infested vacant lot or foundation left after the building was razed.
According to the Kalmbach book the 1930s and 1940s were the heyday for LCL merchandise service but it continued on into the 1960s. As you say it was gradually switched over to trucking service, often which was a subsidiary of the railroad. My railroad is set in 1956 so I think I can still justify LCL and I think it adds interest to the operating scheme.
wjstixDepending on your time period, you could use them where you planning to, but under new ownership. Wouldn't be that unusual post-WW2 era for a railroad to decide to close a freight or passenger station, and choose to sell it on site rather than move it or tear it down.
My first "official" duty being an Asst. Trainmaster was the execution of the sale of a depot to the grain elevator next door.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
jecorbett ACY "Next question. If I decide to unload the LCL at the depot, what am I going to do with the two freighthouse kits I already bought?" Use them in your larger towns. Typically, these might be the interchange point where your branch or short line joins the larger line to the outside world, plus the largest town on the branch itself.
ACY "Next question. If I decide to unload the LCL at the depot, what am I going to do with the two freighthouse kits I already bought?"
"Next question. If I decide to unload the LCL at the depot, what am I going to do with the two freighthouse kits I already bought?"
Use them in your larger towns. Typically, these might be the interchange point where your branch or short line joins the larger line to the outside world, plus the largest town on the branch itself.
My question was somewhat facetious. The reality is the branchline is the last section of the railroad to be built. All the other towns have their own freighthouses appropriate for the size of the town. Based on the answers I have read so far, these towns on my branchline may or may not justify a seperate freight house depending on the volume of freight being received.
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Depending on your time period, you could use them where you planning to, but under new ownership. Wouldn't be that unusual post-WW2 era for a railroad to decide to close a freight or passenger station, and choose to sell it on site rather than move it or tear it down. So you could have a freight depot in place, but painted a different color than your railroad's standard paint scheme, representing a building now owned by say a trucking company or some other small / medium sized business. It could still be railroad served, but wouldn't have to be. Could have unused spur track still in place, or just the vestiges left showing where a spur track had once been.
Dave H.:
Or the building could be repurposed and used by MOW forces, a B&B gang, the signal dept., etc.
Old depots and freight houses have been purchased by truck competitors, and they have also been repurposed as police stations, City administration buildings, small town libraries, and for other functions. When the Everett RR took over a portion of the Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain RR about 50+ years ago, they needed a place to service their engine in Everett, PA, which previously had no such facility. They put an engine door in one end of the freight house, which was no longer needed for its original purpose. Short lines do what they gotta do.
BRAKIEBy 1958 all was closed and all have been torn down since except the N&W freight house that burned down in '70. C&O's freight house became Pattons Warehouse a distributor of fine liquors and tobacco and Pattons required rail service...
I want to thank everyone who replied. Lots to think about. It seems the consensus is that a stand alone freight house would be justified based on the size of the town and the volume of freight handled, not just LCL. I have imagined these towns to be around 5000 population but I could just as easily imagine them to be a little larger and justify a seperate freighthouse.
BRAKIE PRR,C&O,B&O and NYC freight houses in Columbus was within three blocks of each other and any LCL bound to one of those freight houses from either of those railroads was rubbered to the other roads freight house..N&W's freight house was a mile away from the other four. By 1958 all was closed and all have been torn down since except the N&W freight house that burned down in '70. C&O's freight house became Pattons Warehouse a distributor of fine liquors and tobacco and Pattons required rail service...
PRR,C&O,B&O and NYC freight houses in Columbus was within three blocks of each other and any LCL bound to one of those freight houses from either of those railroads was rubbered to the other roads freight house..N&W's freight house was a mile away from the other four.
By 1958 all was closed and all have been torn down since except the N&W freight house that burned down in '70. C&O's freight house became Pattons Warehouse a distributor of fine liquors and tobacco and Pattons required rail service...
Larry,
I worked in downtown Columbus for about 25 years but that was about the time Conrail came into existence so the NYC, PRR, and B&O were long gone. I used to park my car near what I believe was the old B&O facility. When I retired 15 years ago it was just a large vacant lot on the southside of I-670. You could still see remnants of paved strips so I'm guessing it was either for team tracks or piggyback unloading. Right next to it I believe an old B&O building still stands and was being used as a dance studio/school. If I remember it was for Ballet Met. Do you know if that did belong to the B&O and what that building was used for?
Re Larry's comments on refrigerators, think of it this way...if you ordered a new refrigerator from the Sears Roebuck catalogue c.1950, it quite likely would be delivered to the local station in a baggage car in a passenger train. However, if a local appliance dealer ordered several dozen new refrigerators, freezers, washing machines etc., but didn't have their own siding (since they only got 1-2 shipments a year), it would probably all be in one boxcar set out at the team track. The appliance dealer's employees would take a company truck and move the appliances from the team track to the dealer's business. However, if a local hardware store that carried appliances ordered 3 new refrigerators, it might come as LCL in a boxcar with other items going to other people, and be transferred from the LCL car to the freight house until it was picked up by the hardware store folks.
BRAKIE NittanyLion It's also helpful to quantify "small town." My little hometown had a population of about 24k in 1955, but sported three freight houses and a piggyback ramp. I don't think any of the passenger stations were left in service, but two of them were still standing. Maybe I should have included size of a small town-less then 12,000 folks-a jerk water town with a station and could be a county seat..No need for a full blown freight station. Of course some stations had a small freight area attached to it. Not exactly a freight house but,a good place to hold those few LCL shipments.
NittanyLion It's also helpful to quantify "small town." My little hometown had a population of about 24k in 1955, but sported three freight houses and a piggyback ramp. I don't think any of the passenger stations were left in service, but two of them were still standing.
It's also helpful to quantify "small town." My little hometown had a population of about 24k in 1955, but sported three freight houses and a piggyback ramp. I don't think any of the passenger stations were left in service, but two of them were still standing.
Maybe I should have included size of a small town-less then 12,000 folks-a jerk water town with a station and could be a county seat..No need for a full blown freight station.
Of course some stations had a small freight area attached to it. Not exactly a freight house but,a good place to hold those few LCL shipments.
Indeed, State College PA was busy enough (what with a major university and all) that it had two passenger stations, but no freight house or anything. Express and LCL was handled in the baggage rooms.
A friend of mine showed me an ATSF LCL guide. Fascinating stuff. The LCL was not interchanged willy nilly. It traveled through a defined hub and spoke system. LCL generated at smaller locations was consolidated at larger hubs, then sent to another hub, where it was separated and distributed to the smaller locations served by that hub.
LCL between railroads was also routed on distinct hubs. The PRR would consolidate all LCL for points on or via the ATSF in a couple locations and route it to Chicago to the ATSF, similarly the ATSF would consolidate all LCL for all points on or via the PRR into two groups and send them to two spots on the PRR.
Its easy to see how a shipment from Maine to San Diego could easily travel in a half dozen or more cars/boxcars on its trip.
In a lot of small towns, the railroad wanted to make do with as few employees as possible, so proximity was a big advantage. In Wolfeboro, NH, the railroad is preserved as a bike path, and the beautiful old station is the visitors' center. The freight house, which still exists, is maybe 3-4 car lengths away from the depot. Probably made it easier for a mixed train to switch, too.
Pin the cities, of course, where there was ore business, the Railway Express and US Mail facilities were typically built right next to the stations: the old REA building in DC is like that, Chicago Union Station, Boston South Station, etc.
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On a branchline or shortline local, there would often be an LCL car, and it would often operate right behind the engine or right ahead of the caboose so it was readily accessible to the train crew. Often it was a home road car. Sometimes the same individual car would be regularly assgned to the train for months or years on end. That's the way it was done on the B&O's former Buffalo & Susquehanna branchline in North Central Pennsylvania. In other cases, the railroad might use whatever clean car was available, be it a home road car or an interchange car. That's the way the Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain RR did it in South Central Pennsylvania. Those roads delivered those small LCL shipments directly to the depots in the very small towns along their lines, in the care of the local agent.
Busier operations handled LCL with more attention to volume business. An LCL shipment might be loaded on a boxcar at a C&NW freight house in Green Bay, Wisconsin, along with several other partial loads for Chicago and points East. At Chicago, the car would be unloaded and the various partial loads would be re-sorted and loaded into other cars for their destinations, or at least in the right general direction. For example, that C&NW car might have a shipment for the B&O in Akron, plus a NYC shipment for Syracuse, plus another partial load to the PRR at Harrisburg. They load and send the B&O and NYC cars home to Akron and Syracuse in C&NW cars, or in B&O and NYC cars respectively. They have a New Haven car that needs to go home via the PRR, so they load the Harrisburg shipment in that car. Since these are partial loads, the cars would be filled out with additional partial loads from other origins such as Omaha and Madison, WI. Then the cars would be sent via a transfer run to the B&O, NYC, and PRR. Those roads would take them over the road to the B&O freight house in Akron, the NYC freight house in Syracuse, and the PRR freight house in Harrisburg.
There is a very good C&NW instructional film from the early 1950's which covers this. Maybe somebody can find it & post it.
Dave, A lot of shipments from Sears like washers,Refrigerators arrived in Baggage cars or combines of mixed trains since there was no real need to haul a boxcar for one or two items. Freight houses cost money to operate and where there was few LCL shipments the station had a area for holding shipments like TVs,ringer washers etc.
Why pay men to stand around if there is no work to be done? Small towns didn't always have the luxury of having a freight station and was lucky to have a regular station.
The conductor would not help unload since there was union work rules and agreements and a conductor was a supervisor/foreman which limited his activity. The agent and brakeman would do the manual labor.
I recall seeing a photo in a book of a large wooden box being unloaded from a combine at a grade crossing into a 1950 era pickup truck. I always thought that was a neat photo.
All LCL requires is a secure location to store the shipments until they are put on a train or picked up and an agent to accept the shipment or verify that the proper party has recieved them.
A combination depot with a "baggage" section could recieve small packages. The local train would have a boxcar and would unload small packages at these minor points. If you shipped a larger LCL shipment to that town it would have to go to the nearest station that had a freight house where it could be handled. At the smaller station there is no need to spot a boxcar any place, the local just pulls up in front of the depot, the crew opens the boxcar, the agent and the conductor sort out the packages staying and load any outbound packages and 10-20 min later the local is on its way.