If you are remotely talented in excel you can generate switchlists for a decent size operating session in very little time. It's not difficult at all. Remember to also fold your switchlist and stuff it in your back pocket...makes you look like you've railroaded.
A point here. In today's real world with two man crews the conductor is the brakeman. So if you are modeling a modern operation and want to simulate what it is like, you would use a switchlist and assume the responsibility of both jobs.
And yes indeed, "off spot" cars happen in the real world as well. Nothing is perfect.
It is a nightmare. The term is "straggler". Even in today's modern computer systems they cause problems.
If I were trying to simulate operations from the past I would consider the waybill route. No longer. I know of no North American railroad that manages operations using waybills. They use switchlists. There is no reason whatsoever to have a copy of a waybill in the field. With today's modern systems the waybill is just a data structure used to pass information.
So, if your goal is to simulate modern operations you should use switchlists. That would be the "correct" way.
jrbernier Back in the 50's, a 'waybill' was usually cut for each car/load. Multiple copies were generated and one of those copies followed the freight car on it's journey from shipper to consignee. The conductor had a large packet/sleeve with the waybills.
Back in the 50's, a 'waybill' was usually cut for each car/load. Multiple copies were generated and one of those copies followed the freight car on it's journey from shipper to consignee. The conductor had a large packet/sleeve with the waybills.
At least one railroad in the 50's prepared a single waybill for multiple cars moving from one shipper to one consignee. I know this because a great uncle was a B&O agent at a small station in WV. I clearly recall my uncle typing as many reporting marks as he could on one waybill and cussing a blue streak when he made a mistake. We're talking very thin paper and several carbons to be corrected.
At that time, waybills moved with the car. Conductors were responsible for having a waybill for each car in their train and a car for each waybill. I've often wondered what the B&O (or a connecting railroad) did if cars on one of those multi-car waybills got separated from each other. Sounds like a real nightmare.
ChuckAllen, TX
I once was handed a 1/2 sheet of legal note pad by the ym with 5 car numbers and the location that the he needed on the "ice" track.Of course these fool cars had to be "cherry picked" from the cut of cars.As a rookie yard brakeman I decided as soon as my 6 months is up I will request a student slot on the road crew extra board.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Virtually every railroad used a version of the switch list form, 1/2 a sheet of paper, printed on manila 65-100 lb cardstock . Its easy to find a picture of one on E-bay or a search engine and then roll your own using Excel or another spreadsheet program.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Real waybills would probably be too much to handle. But I once scored a blank pad of real Santa Fe switch lists. Used some of them on occasion to make up switch lists from my CC/WB- a little prototype verisimilitude.
dehusman BRAKIE It doesn't take very much to end up with a first full of cc/wb since each industry has two spots and a off spot plus a four spot transload track. In my area we have shirts, pants and aprons that have pockets. You can easily put a strip of material on the fascia to hold CC&WB if pockets don't work.
BRAKIE It doesn't take very much to end up with a first full of cc/wb since each industry has two spots and a off spot plus a four spot transload track.
It doesn't take very much to end up with a first full of cc/wb since each industry has two spots and a off spot plus a four spot transload track.
In my area we have shirts, pants and aprons that have pockets.
You can easily put a strip of material on the fascia to hold CC&WB if pockets don't work.
dehusmanYou can easily put a strip of material on the fascia to hold CC&WB if pockets don't work.
And/or have sorting racks and other aids mounted on the fascia to keep paperwork under control and out of operators' hands unless they absolutely need to be holding it.
Rob Spangler
cuyamaI'm not sure how the small switching layout that you were looking at building would generate a "fist full" of car cards in any case.
The industry on the bottom left takes a tank cars and two boxcars-three spots and a off spot if needed. The buildings is Walthers background building -Bud's Trucking and the shipping company plus the plastic transload that I kitbash into two pairs of industrial silos.
The industry on the bottom left takes a tank cars and two boxcars-three spots and a off spot if needed.
The buildings is Walthers background building -Bud's Trucking and the shipping company plus the plastic transload that I kitbash into two pairs of industrial silos.
BRAKIEI would hate to see a $200.00 throttle bounce off the floor because the operator was carrying a fist full of waybills.
Canard.
Around here, we just use a small clipboard with the train instructions and track warrants or TT&TO paperwork that also has a pocket to hold car-cards-and-waybills. You'd need the clipboard for a switchlist anyway. And in a lot of cases, we use two-person crews for the locals, so the conductor is carrying the clipboard and the engineer has the throttle.
I'm not sure how the small switching layout that you were looking at building would generate a "fist full" of car cards in any case.
Switchlists are fine, car-cards-and-waybills are fine. Seems silly to sensationalize things, IMHO.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
BRAKIE I would hate to see a $200.00 throttle bounce off the floor because the operator was carrying a fist full of waybills.
I would hate to see a $200.00 throttle bounce off the floor because the operator was carrying a fist full of waybills.
A small eyebolt and a lanyard will solve that problem. 8-)
cuyama My point was that if one is writing a software program, there's probably no reason to spit out both waybills and switchlists.
I agree..It should be one or the other unless the operator wants to emulate the paper work that is done daily...
Which system is better is a personal choice.
After decades of using cc/wb I find its easier for me to use a switch list-like the prototype there's less to carry and IMHO it may be safer if one is carrying a $200.00 or more DCC hand held throttle.
dehusmanDepends on how you conceive of the operation. I know several of people who use CC&WB and switchlists.
Agree. My point was that if one is writing a software program, there's probably no reason to spit out both waybills and switchlists. That seems to me like much more work for no appreciable benefit to the operators.
cuyama There's no value that I can see in doing both switchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
There's no value that I can see in doing both switchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
Depends on how you conceive of the operation. I know several of people who use CC&WB and switchlists. They operate just like the prototype and use the CC&WB for exactly what it represents, the waybill, and then make hand written lists from them. Exactly how the prototype did it.
From a conceptual standpoint, if you are going to have a car be handled by more than one train or engine, then something has to "remember" the information about the car, where its going, who is the consignee, what's in the car, etc. For an analog system that was the waybill, it retained all the movement information. Then all the list had to have was the minimum information necessary for the next move. If you use the list to keep track of that information them you have to recopy all the information on every list. For a digital system, its the same thing. There has to be a table somewhere that retains the shipment information for the car and associates it with the car. The record in that table for a car is the de facto waybill. Whether you want to or not, you pretty much have to create a waybill record in a computer system if you want any sophistication of movements.
From a lot of personal experience, I can tell you that this is a problem with all of the current switchlist programs. If a car goes west instead of going east at one session, it messes up two trains at the next session, and more trains down the road. The only way to solve this is for a human to check the location of every car on the layout after every session. That's not the definition of fun to me, but it might be for others.
Part of that is poor reporting at the beginning and the other part of that is not real time management of the lists. If the lists are made up ahead of time and only one list is used, then yes you get that problem. On a real railroad they use multiple lists, one to tell the yardmaster which cars to put on the train or which cars could be put on the train, then the yardmaster reports what cars he actually put on the train. Its that second step that most model systems skip. Model systems tend to assume that the lists will be executed exactly as written.
Which brings up the second point, if the car is misrouted, then it should be reported as misrouted by the train crew if its not on their list. If the model crews diligently report what's on their train and the layout owner has set up a method to collect that feedback and to adjust the locations near real time, then you don't have to check every car. If there is a west car on an east train then the crew writes the car number on their list and at the end of the run they turn it over to a "clerk" who updates the car's location in the computer. Viola! All the lists are now correct.
With CC&WB, if the train crew finds they have a car missing a CC, they will ask the yard for the CC and the problem corrects itself quickly.
It's not that either system is better, its just that with CC&WB its easier to set up near real time updates than it is with a computer system
But my own opinions on car movement systems are only informed by seeing what has actually worked in personally setting up and managing ops sessions on multiple layouts, the largest one of which keeps 20-25 operators busy for 4+ hours and moves 400-500 cars per session in dozens of trains (with car-cards-and-waybills, as it happens).
dehusman
A waybill is the car movement record. It has all the information for the ENTIRE move (except the final spot). The switch list is the tactical next move.
not sure there's a need for waybills on a model railroad.
The waybill is the part of the system that "remembers" the car movement data. A CC&WB is the equivalent of a real waybill.
First,I started using cc/wb after reading Doug Smith's article in 61 or 62 and after fooling with waybills since then I don't think we need all that information since we are emulating the final delivery and pick up of the empty or load-the as you called it "tactical next move". I like that.
99% of the time the cars we picked up was returned to the yard for classification into trains that sent them back toward their home rails or if the car was a "home" car the yard boys would spot it on the empty track or send it to another division if need be.
The routine was simple..We signed in,looked over the daily bulletin,train consist and then we would look over our copy of the switch list to familiarize us with the needed work.
gregc can you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted).
can you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted).
wondering if "error in car movement" occur on real railroad, and if so, how are the handled/corrected
cuyamagregcGUIs require manual input and therefore have some severe limitations. I cannot personally imagine a software that would not require manual input.
gregcGUIs require manual input and therefore have some severe limitations.
I cannot personally imagine a software that would not require manual input.
any software ... i'll assume you are referring to model railroad software
obviously you need to be able to add and remove cars from the layout, and as i mentioned earlier, to conveniently correct errors with waybill software. (not necessarily using a GUI to do so, though you and many others may prefer to use one).
but is there any need for manual input between sessions if the previous set of waybills were executed correctly? I assume the program could execute sequentially using the previous waybill orders to determine current car locations
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
cuyama BRAKIEA modeler does the job as brakeman not conductor.. Not around here. The operators plan their own switching moves -- in other words, they act as the conductor.
BRAKIEA modeler does the job as brakeman not conductor..
Not around here. The operators plan their own switching moves -- in other words, they act as the conductor.
I cannot personally imagine a software program that would not require manual input.
gregcwith the waybill cards, the mis-located car be simply routed to its correct destination during the next operation session, correct?
Yes.
Not correct -- as you yourself stated. Conductors used waybills on real railroads in the past -- every day. Most folks who are operating are simulating the conductor, not the brakeman.
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Then the local's operator will stand by the switch to watch the crew switch cars in a safe manner and to insure operating and safety rules are obeyed? That was part of the conductor's job back in the day.
A modeler does the job as brakeman not conductor..
I presented the prototype way of switching cars with a switch list as a option--not stating one way or the other if it was the only way.I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
As far as "off spot" cars those are facts of every day railroading.Nothing is perfect-even a routine setout can be delayed while a trucker moves his truck.
cuyamagregccan you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted). There's no value that I can see in doing bothswitchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
gregccan you be more specific about the differences between switchlists and waybills, and why you think a single program couldn't do both (if you wanted).
There's no value that I can see in doing bothswitchlists and waybills with a program for modeling applications. One or the other will suffice. But if you want to write that into your program, it's your time and effort.
i think there's a misunderstanding here, which you've corrected ... there's a difference between "couldn't" and no need to.
cuyamagregcAny program needs to conveniently handle actual switching mistakes and car being removed or added to the layout. From a lot of personal experience, I can tell you that this is a problem with all of the current switchlist programs. If a car goes west instead of going east at one session, it messes up two trains at the next session, and more trains down the road. The only way to solve this is for a human to check the location of every car on the layout after every session. That's not the definition of fun to me, but it might be for others. By contrast, a car that goes west instead of east on a car-card-and-waybill layout has still been misrouted, but the operating paperwork is still sufficient to send it back the correct way at the next session with no operator or layout owner intervention.
gregcAny program needs to conveniently handle actual switching mistakes and car being removed or added to the layout.
By contrast, a car that goes west instead of east on a car-card-and-waybill layout has still been misrouted, but the operating paperwork is still sufficient to send it back the correct way at the next session with no operator or layout owner intervention.
I believe i understand your point ... with the waybill cards, the mis-located car be simply routed to its correct destination during the next operation session, correct?
And i believe this gets back to your earlier point, that while the use of waybills on model railroads may not be realistic, they handle errors more gracefully than switch lists.
cuyamaAnd speaking of fun for others, I think you'll find that the vast majority of model railroaders expect GUIs and mouse (or touch screen) functionality. If you are writing a non-GUI application just for yourself, it doesn't matter, of course, but others may not find that convenient.
GUIs require manual input and therefore have some severe limitations. I assume the vast majority of model railroaders do not build hand laid turnouts, but many do.
cuyamaBut my own opinions on car movement systems are only informed by seeing what has actually worked in personally setting up and managing ops sessions on multiple layouts, the largest one of which keeps 20-25 operators busy for 4+ hours and moves 400-500 cars per session in dozens of trains (with car-cards-and-waybills, as it happens).
i appreciate your experience and opinions drawn from that experience
Jim Bernier explained it pretty completely, there's not much to add (at least from a modeling standpoint).
And speaking of fun for others, I think you'll find that the vast majority of model railroaders expect GUIs and mouse (or touch screen) functionality. If you are writing a non-GUI application just for yourself, it doesn't matter, of course, but others may not find that convenient.
BRAKIEThere isn't..Railroaders use a switch list not the waybills.
BRAKIEA switch list can do the same..Just have the "crew" to go "dead on the law" and pick up where you left off next operation day..One doesn't need a new switch list for his local every time he operates.
Larry, you didn't understand my point. Incomplete as in "off-spot". A switchlist doesn't solve that problem without manual intervention. And if an overall job is incomplete at the end of a computerized switchlist session, I think you'll find that it creates problems for the next session unless some work is done in between. Have you operated on layouts with computerized switchlists (which is the topic of this thread)? I have (ProTrak, Railop, etc.) -- and I've seen the plusses and minuses.
You like switchlists, that's fine. Waybills work great, too -- hundreds, probably thousands of operating railroads use car-cards-and-waybills successfully. To each his own -- your way is not the only way, nor is it the only "correct" way.
cuyamaCard cards and waybills, by contrast, are self-correcting in my experience: any work done incorrectly or not complete at one session can be completed in the next session without affecting other cars or locations.
A switch list can do the same..Just have the "crew" to go "dead on the law" and pick up where you left off next operation day..One doesn't need a new switch list for his local every time he operates.
As far as cars going astray that happens on the prototype-even with computerization.
gregcnot sure there's a need for waybills on a model railroad.
There isn't..Railroaders use a switch list not the waybills.
Imagine trying to hold on a freight car with a fist full of waybills.
I decided to dump my cc/wb for a switch list.
I in the process of finding a user family system.