I'm presently designing my layout and am faced with a hard choice.As much as I'd like a roundhouse/turntable combo on the layout,the size of the whole set makes it quite impossible to fit where I'd like it to be.But if I drop the RH,the TT would nicely fit in a corner without eating up too much landscape and ruining my trackplan.Could I have a lonely TT as an "end of line" device with it possibly linked to a yard and perhaps having a track or two leading to a less space eating two stall rectangular building and still be prototypical?
There are all kinds of examples of TTs without roundhouses. In many cases, the roundhouses were torn down but the TT remained to turn equipment, not always locos or passenger cars, but other things like the "big hook" so it will be oriented in the most convenient direction when it gets to the derailment.
Here is the one at BNSF's Gibson Yard in Omaha, the roundhouse burned down in 1969 (IIRC)
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=41.230149~-95.914976&style=h&lvl=19&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
Here is one in Council Bluffs (UP yard I believe) but is has a substantial building and the remains of an old roundhouse it appears.
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=qwbbyr70bdp6&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=13580498&encType=1
Ricky
Turntables were built where there was a need to turn locomotives. Roundhouses did not inevitably follow.
My own modeling has a turntable at my engine change point, along with fuel, water and sand facilities. The engines work out of terminals on the other ends of the route, so there are no shops or engine shelters where the coalburners meet the catenary motors. OTOH, the steamers have to run downhill smoke box first to maintain the rather modest scheduled speed. All of my motors are double-ended, and the diesel (hydraulic) fleet has center cabs and is bi-directional.
The coal-originating private railway runs tank locos that are never turned. The management considers keeping water over the crown sheet on the 4% grade more critical than running smokebox first.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Steam engines generally needed to be turned at the end points of their run. There were three ways that this could be done.
The cheapest was a wye, so this was the usual option where no engine stabling was required.
The second was a turntable. This would often be forced by topography, in a narrow valley or squeezed between a steep hillside and a deep lake. Pre-existing urban development might also prevent acquisition of enough land for a wye.
The third way was quite rare in olden times, the use of a balloon track or loop. This required even more space than a wye.
The cases that I can think of that had a turntable with no attached engine shed were at places with no engine stabling at all. One was a junction, the other an on-line location where a regular local switcher always worked before returning to the main terminal 15 miles away.
On the other hand, I also know of one place that had a 2 or 3 stall "roundhouse" where the tracks fanned out in the traditional radial pattern but turnouts were used, not a turntable. A wye was available at the other end of town if needed by the local yard engines.
John
Thanks for the very nice answers.I knew that some RH's had been dismantled but also believed that their TT's had known the same faith.In fact,it is my thought that quite a few TT's no longer exist while their RH's are still in use,although not exactly suited to more modern ways.
But to me this is good news as I will have a TT well tucked in a corner of the layout and use a rectangular two stall shop that will be somewhat remotely situated,wich will allow me to make better use of the limited space I have.This is even more important since I need a huge TT to turn my Big Boy and Challengers,and an equally huge RH to nest them.Walthers has a neat TT (in N scale),although a little pricey,but I don't know of any suiting RH offered,so this takes care of the problem.
BNSF has a turntable without a roundhouse in Springfield, Missouri. The turntable was added after BN merged with Frisco, so it is a modern turntable that never had a roundhouse with it. Was built sometime in the 1980's IIRC.
- James
There is one in use at Amtrak's Auto-train facility in Lorton, VA. I'm not sure, but I think it is used to turn the auto-racks so that the vehicles can be driven off driving forward. It was probably built new in the 1970's when the Auto-train was started.
Also, the San Francisco cable cars are turned around on an "Armstrong" turntable at the end of their runs. Never a roundhouse there, either.
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
http://photobucket.com/tandarailroad/
The Western Maryland Scenic RR (as opposed to the old Western MD common carrier) has a turntable in Frostburg, MD that also doubles as a switch. Train pulls in on station track, loco proceeds to turntable, loco is turned and then sent out on the passing siding so that the loco can run around the train for the return trip to Cumberland. The passing siding has a switch at only one end. The other end of the siding ends at the turntable pit.
Classic model railroad thought is that a turntable requires a round house. A roundhouse is a maintenance facility for locomotives. A turntable is a way to turn a locomotive. They do not have to occur together. You can have a maintenance facility without a turntable or you can have a turntable without a maintenance facility. People waste a lot space putting in huge roundhouses when what they really need is just a turntable.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
One old map I have shows a rail line from Northampton MA to Williamsburg MA where a steam loco with a combination car and passenger car made a trip four times a day in the 1800s. This was a branch of the NY NH & H line. I have a photo of the train from a collection. A turntable was at the end of this line in Williamsburg to turn the loco. No engine house.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Another prototypical example which also has implications for your use in a "limited" area:
Madison, Wisconsin was the northern end of the Illinois Central's "Madison Branch" from Freeport, Illinois. There was a turntable but no roundhouse. Most all of the tracks there at the end of the branch had specific purposes and there wasn't much "storage" space. When the IC train would come into town, they would often spot the caboose on the turntable lead, or even on the turntable itself, to get it out of the way while they went about their other switching. This example is from practices of the late 1960s and early 1970s, when the Madison Branch train was usually powered by just one diesel.
Bill
On the Reading:
Turntable w/o enginehouse - To turn helpers on the Wilmington and Northern Branch at the DE-PA state line just below Cossart PA.
Rectangular enginehouse - Darby Creek Enginehouse at Essington PA was a rectangular three or four track building accessed by switches at one end and a turntable at the other end.
Roundhouse w/o turntable - Wilmington DE had an old rectangular two stall enginehouse attached to a newer four or five stall roundhouse. All the stalls were accessed by switches. there was a turntable on a separate lead on the other side of Beech Street.
Actually, having a turntable on it's own lead isn't a bad idea - probably makes it a little less likely to have an engine or tender wind up in the pit.
As the numerous replies point out, there are many examples of TTs with no roundhouse. I wonder if there were roundhouses with no TTs. Obviously, there could be just a limited number of stalls with that sort of roundhouse, but I suppose it could have been done.
On my own layout, I have just begun construction of the branchline off my mainline. My layout is transition era, but the branchline has not been dieselized. Its motive power consists of a pair of 4-6-0s and a doodlebug. These all need to be turned at both ends of the branch. Originally I planned a wye at the junction, but it required too much real estate and would have been difficult to scenic. I found a place to squeeze in a 90' TT which I might also use to turn mainline helpers. Since this TT was an afterthought, I haven't thought that through but it seems to make sense. I haven't even checked which of the helpers will fit on the TT. The junction TT is used only to turn the locos. There is just one track lead to the TT and the only service facility is a water tank. At the terminus end of the branch, there will be another TT with a small two-stall engine house (an FSM replica of John Allen's masterpiece). Of course this end of the branch will have coal, water, sand, and ash facilities as well.
tomikawaTT Turntables were built where there was a need to turn locomotives. Roundhouses did not inevitably follow. At the end of a long branch. The shops were located at the mainline junction, but the turntable was needed because steam locomotives generally had to operate at severely restricted speed when running tender first....
Turntables without engine/roundhouses at ends of branches were common. However, my observations of Southern Pacific branchlines of California shows it was common for there to be no shops/turntables/engine facilities at the branchline junction with the mainline. Trains for most/many branchlines started/terminated at a yard on the mainline some distance from the junction. Activity on most branchlines was insufficient to require a separate roster of locomotives requiring maintenance adjacent to the branchline. Two examples immediately coming to mind were the San Ramon branch where trains originated in Oakland and traveled on the mainline to Avon (about 35 miles) or orginating from Port Costa (about 7 miles from Avon), and the Mina Branch where trains traveled on the mainline from Sparks to Hazen (42 miles), before "turning a wheel" on the respective branchlines.
I recommend for modeling, if one has a choice, not putting engine facilities at a branch/mainline junction. Start/end trains at a mainline yard. You will gain a longer run for branchline trains and save valuable space otherwise "wasted" at the junction..
The San Ramon branch once had a turntable (wooden, A-frame), but it was later eliminated as the branch was extended to connect with another SP mainline at Radum (Pleasanton), resulting in wyes at both ends of the branch where it connected with the two mainlines. The Mina branch never had a turntable -- locomotives were turned on a wye. The Friant branch had a turntable sans enginehouse, although in this case it started at Fresno where there were extensive locomotive facilities on the mainline.
Mark
DSO17 Roundhouse w/o turntable - Wilmington DE had an old rectangular two stall enginehouse attached to a newer four or five stall roundhouse. All the stalls were accessed by switches. there was a turntable on a separate lead on the other side of Beech Street.
The Reading/Philadelphia & Reading/Wilmington & Northern facility at Beech St. has an interesting history.
The original turntable and "roundhouse" was oriented at right angles to the main track and the roudnhouse was actually rectangular. Then a new roundhouse was built roughly parallel to the main track. It had a turntable in the normal position. The original turntable was removed and the old roundhouse became a car shop. A rectangular car shop was added to the roundhouse and the original roundhouse was retired. When the turntable was replaced with a bigger one, it was moved to its own lead because Beech St crossed the turntable leads too close to the turntable to allow it to be enlarged.
So the final arrangement was a 2 stall rectangular car shop, a 3 stall roundhouse (it actually had five stalls, but two of them were always used as a machine shop) with a turntable separate from the roundhouse.
Here is a link to plans and a history of the last roundhouse. Although the HABS-HAER doesn't discuss the earlier roundhouse and turntable, it clearly shows on early Sanborn maps.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?hh:1:./temp/~ammem_t9Tx::
The tracks that parallel Oak St were the leads to the orignal roundhouse.
Phx Az circa 2009.
I've seen a few pics of a roundhouse still being used by a RR but with no turntable. Usually it resulted from the railroad going all-diesel, and deciding to fill in the turntable pit and replace it with turnouts to the stalls. However I do seem to recall one or two situations where a railroad built a roundhouse and had turnouts from the start. As you'd expect in either situation they're usually small 3-4-5 stall roundhouses; bigger than that the switch angles wouldn't work out right.
Some railroads building out west around the 1870s would put in a hand powered turntable if the loco had to go a distance for more supplies while the railroad was being built. A have some photos of those.
One photo I have seen is a CW railroad put a turntable alongside a two stall engine house. The TT did not feed the engine house but this was wartime and only temporary.
One railroad put a hand powered turntable in a covered circular building on the side of a mountain to turn the loco so it could continue up the side of the mountain. For some reason, no switch back. They had to put any cars on the TT also. RMC had an article with period photos some years ago. The building was built over the TT to protect it from snow.The remants of the TT are pretty much coverd by trees and brush.
In that era, hand powerd simple balance TT's were not to difficult t build.
I love to go offroading around British Columbia to explore old rail lines CPR/Kettle Valley and PGE/BCR and CN. I am surprised at the number of old turntables or remnants thereof that I have come across.
I had always assumed that these were costly items for the railroads to install but maybe not. The one question I still have is, what determined weather it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
An "armstrong" manual turntable like you might find at the end of a branch line to turn a 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 wouldn't be all that expensive I'd think. It really was nothing more than a wood (or steel) bridge built on a pivot to rotate in the middle. You didn't have to have a concrete pit lining or anything fancy like that.
http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/turntables/4-4-0_46turntableperhapsWashingtonStJamaica.jpg
The NCNG had a turntable at Colfax California to turn the locomotives but no round house was ever built there. There are probably numberous examples of this on smaller branches where engine houses were not built.
CZ
Corkscrew Gulch turntable. This turntable did not last very long. It was an Armstrong type built essentially in the middle of nowhere. Below is the history. It could handle a 2-8-0 at that time which were not very big compared to some years later. Rolling stock was handled by this turntable much of the time requiring two locomotives. There was a lot of money in silver mining at that time and labor was very cheap. The grade was around 5 percent. In a search. Some articles mention a two truck shay the road had as a 0-4-4-0T. I found that quite interesting.
http://www.narrowgauge.org/ncmap/excur2_silverton_railroad_history.html
BATMAN The one question I still have is, what determined whether it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment. Brent
The one question I still have is, what determined whether it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment.
Several factors come into play. It will depend on how many tracks will lead off the table.There needs to be some form of pit wall at each track, so if there are quite a few tracks the pit is generally completely enclosed. But if there are only a couple of tracks each side, the pit may be left open around the rest of the circumference.
Topography also factors in. If the track lead is above the surrounding ground elevation, all that is required is an embankment for each of the few tracks, and with luck the "pit" area will be self draining. As you surmised, in areas of heavy snowfall it can be advantageous to have the pit partially open so mechanical equipment can get in to clear the snow out. Otherwise it is a lot of manual labour, or the use of steam to melt the snow.
In the Great Lakes area, where logging was generally done in the winter, it wasn't unheard of for logging railroads to have a turntable that covered the pit - kind of like the Atlas HO turntable I guess.
None inspired more fear then the 90ft. NWP armstrong example that was built right up against a sheer drop involving several hundred feet to the river below! To add to the thrill effect, the turntable spur dropped down a short, steep grade from the mainline. Suffice to say, proper engine balance on this table was of upmost importance among the crew, probally as equally important as the ability to stop in time! Space and terrain precluded any type of structure, thus it was likely used to turn occasional helper movements.
Dave
CAZEPHYR The NCNG had a turntable at Colfax California to turn the locomotives but no round house was ever built there. There are probably numberous examples of this on smaller branches where engine houses were not built. CZ
CZ:
Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL! I made a really neat "Play Fort". The turntable in Grass Valley was built out on an 'abutment' overlooking the town from the terminal there, which ran above the town on a side-hill curve. I think you had to be REALLY careful spotting the locomotives.
Another example was Siskiyou Summit on the SP's secondary route between Black Butte and Eugene, OR. A turntable with no roundhouse smack in the middle of a forested mountain summit to turn helpers coming up from either Ashland (west) or Dunsmuir (east). The helpers were usually sent back light to either terminal, where there were both turntables and roundhouses.
At Colfax, on the SP Donner Pass route, there was a seven-stall engine house for helper locomotives to assist freights east up the 'Hill' to Norden, but no turntable. Colfax had a wye track for turning the helpers (usually 2-8-0's) that were cut in ahead of the AC Cab-forward's for the steepest part of the grade through Blue Canyon. There was a 'balloon' track at Emigrant Gap, some miles further up where the grade eased and the helpers could be turned around to run back to Colfax, or they continued up to the summit at Norden, where there was a covered turntable (no roundhouse) in the snowshed complex to be turned and sent back down the mountain.
Though not a 'turntable', SP also had a wye track near Cascade Summit on their 'Natron Cutoff" (the primary Portland/Oakland main line) for turning helpers coming 'west' (south) from Eugene. The tail end of the wye was in a tunnel.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL!
Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL!
Tom, as I recall, Gerald Best's book shows a single-stall enginehouse at Nevada City and a two-stall enginehouse at Grass Valley which were directly served by their respective turntables althrough the enginehouses were rectangular rather than "round" (e.g. radial).
At one time, the cities of Barre and Montpelier, VT were connected by 2 different railroads. One of them was the Montpelier and Wells River Railroad. The other was the Barre and Montpelier Branch of the Central Vermont.
The CV Station still stands in Barre. The passenger tracks were the eastern most tracks of the Branch line. Just past the Depot, the 2 tracks ended at a turntable. It was the end of the line. There was no roundhouse.
The turntable is long gone. Now a lone GP9R, number 804 lettered for the Green Mountain RR rules the branch (ex GMRC 1851, ex NS 2000). It is run by the Washington County Railroad (WACR). It lives in the engine house in Barre.
Gil
Where ever you go, there you are !
Jacktal I'm presently designing my layout and am faced with a hard choice.As much as I'd like a roundhouse/turntable combo on the layout,the size of the whole set makes it quite impossible to fit where I'd like it to be.But if I drop the RH,the TT would nicely fit in a corner without eating up too much landscape and ruining my trackplan.Could I have a lonely TT as an "end of line" device with it possibly linked to a yard and perhaps having a track or two leading to a less space eating two stall rectangular building and still be prototypical?
Some branch lines lack turntables as did some short lines..The locomotive would return to the yard tender first.The coming of the diesel doomed turntables and old fashion roundhouses.Some railroads used a single stall engine house on branch lines or in some cases there wasn't any engine house-just a shanty for the locomotive hostler.All he did was keep the fire banked in order to keep minimum steam pressure up.
Steam railroading isn't as cut and dry as many been lead to believe..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"