dehusman Classic model railroad thought is that a turntable requires a round house. A roundhouse is a maintenance facility for locomotives. A turntable is a way to turn a locomotive. They do not have to occur together. You can have a maintenance facility without a turntable or you can have a turntable without a maintenance facility. People waste a lot space putting in huge roundhouses when what they really need is just a turntable.
Classic model railroad thought is that a turntable requires a round house. A roundhouse is a maintenance facility for locomotives. A turntable is a way to turn a locomotive. They do not have to occur together. You can have a maintenance facility without a turntable or you can have a turntable without a maintenance facility. People waste a lot space putting in huge roundhouses when what they really need is just a turntable.
True on all counts, vut for larger roundhouses, a turntable seems like n easier way to get into the house than a 7ganger switch
-Morgan
There is a turntable at Laws,CA. on the SP narrow gauge line from Keeler. The turntable, along with 2-6-0 #9 and some freight cars, the station and a few buildings are preserved here.
And for some more overkill, the PRR when it constructed the Sunnyside Yard complex in Queens for the support of the new Penn Station, they had 2 turntables built - even though there was an entire 3-track loop for turning trains completely.
One turntable was located near the east-end of the passenger yard. It disappeared when the large Railway Express building was built.
The other turntable was located at the east end of the yard up by the LIRR and NYCR tracks. It was most likely used to turn NH steam engines also, before the overhead wires were erected by the PRR, the NH and the jointly owned NY Connecting Railroad (NYCR). It was also used to turn the wreak train equipment. I don't know when that one disappeared - but most likely after the catenary was constructed in 1918.
Gil
Where ever you go, there you are !
On the other hand, for a bit of "overkill", St.Paul Union Depot Railway Company's roundhouse and turntable were located inside of the wye just to the east of the depot. Two ways to turn around!
The old C&NW branch from Batavia, Ill. to Aurora, Ill. had a small turntable in Aurora, no roundhouse. The crew came from West Chicago, Ill. & went back to West Chicago, Ill. and turned their steam locomotive in Aurora. Interesting turntable: it was cast iron !!! A single casting at the center contained the "pivot" (may be called something else) and, as I now recall, four seperate castings were bolted on, two on each "side" to complete the turntable. Built on the bank of the Fox River, the approach track was at ground level and the "opposite side" of the turntable pit was at "grade level". The short length of the turntable restricted its use to only the smaller steam locomotives & I'm not sure the branch lasted long enough to "see" diesels.
I'm not sure if it was suggested, as I didn't read them all, but since you're looking for a place large enough to hold a Big Boy and Challenger, and were considering a two stall engine house co-located with the turntable, is it possible to model the edge of a roundhouse with the rest of it included as part of the backdrop?
Roundhouse without a turntable? Rapid City, SD, off Main Street close to South Dakota Tech. Three stalls, accessed by turnouts. There used to be a wye some distance to the west, but one leg was abandoned before 1980. Brought it up on Google Maps - the roundhouse is still there, and the yard appears to be full of idle rolling stock.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
At Sandy Hook, NJ, now a National Park, the Sandy Hook Railroad in the 1800s ran halfway up the peninsula to Horseshoe Cove on Raritan Bay. The railroad transported steamboat passengers from North Jersey and Manhattan south to Sea Bright, Monmouth Beach, Long Branch, etc., during the summer months. What makes this an interesting scene is that the railroad extended several tracks a couple of hundred feet westward along a pier into the bay, where the steamships docked. The pilings are still there, tentatively identified by the the park historian. On land, a small turntable was used to turn the engines, next to a small hotel (more like a boarding house). All traces of these facilities, except for the pilings, have long disappeared due to U.S. Army construction during the 20th century. Another interesting fact is that the railroad had to go to Washington to get permission to build on the peninsula, since the land was part of the U.S. Army's Fort Hancock. Abraham Lincoln signed the bill. Later, the southern portion of the trackage through the civilian towns became part of the CNJ's Coast Line, while the trackage on the peninsula was taken over and expanded by the military. All the trackage was abandoned in the 1960s.
in reply to john who knows of a couple of 3-stall radial roundhouses with turnouts, not turntables, i know of two 5-stall radial roundhouses with 3-way turnouts, not turntables. one was on the calif. state belt ry (now part of the F-line trolley) in san francisco, while the other was at lillooet BC on the 'please go easy'-'province's greatest expense'-'past god's endurance' - 'prince george eventually' - whatever the PGE initials stood for. big duke
markpierceThe Santa Maria Valley Railroad has given up its downton locomotive shops/roundhouse and now use this pit at an abandoned sugar mill to do periodic inspections. Mark
The Santa Maria Valley Railroad has given up its downton locomotive shops/roundhouse and now use this pit at an abandoned sugar mill to do periodic inspections.
Mark
While it is no longer a sugar refinery, the plant is not abandoned.
http://www.smvrr.com/BIP.html
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Alan RobinsonjecorbettAs the numerous replies point out, there are many examples of TTs with no roundhouse. I wonder if there were roundhouses with no TTs. Obviously, there could be just a limited number of stalls with that sort of roundhouse, but I suppose it could have been done.
jecorbettAs the numerous replies point out, there are many examples of TTs with no roundhouse. I wonder if there were roundhouses with no TTs. Obviously, there could be just a limited number of stalls with that sort of roundhouse, but I suppose it could have been done.
Here in Asheville, North Carolina the NS has removed the old Southern RR turntable but retained the roundhouse. Three stalls are still used for engine servicing and are connected with two turnouts to a lead track, the other stalls are still standing but are (presumably) used now for storage.
By the way, for turning in heavy snow country, the balloon track arrangement would often be preferred if there was room because a whole train cound be turned without needing to reverse. This allowed the plough at the front of the train, usually a necessity to buck heavy snow, to always lead the train. A wye would be the second choice and would be used in restricted space, but was more difficult to clear unless the wye was completely covered with snow sheds. An example of this occurred at the summit of the Moffat Road at Corona, Colorado at an elevation of 11,660. The whole station complex including engine coal and watering facilities, station, wye and passing track were all under snowsheds.
Turntables were usually impractical in very heavy snow as the pit would quickly become filled with snow. Some roundhouses in early days when the turntable wasn't very large would cover the whole thing with a roof. Interesting challenge to get rid of the smoke and avoid burning down the wooden structure.
I would suppose if you look long enough you can find an actual application for just about any configuration you can imagine. I sure wouldn't let reality get in the way of my planning. ;-)
markpierce twhite Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL! Tom, as I recall, Gerald Best's book shows a single-stall enginehouse at Nevada City and a two-stall enginehouse at Grass Valley which were directly served by their respective turntables althrough the enginehouses were rectangular rather than "round" (e.g. radial). Mark
twhite Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL!
Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL!
Tom, as I recall, Gerald Best's book shows a single-stall enginehouse at Nevada City and a two-stall enginehouse at Grass Valley which were directly served by their respective turntables althrough the enginehouses were rectangular rather than "round" (e.g. radial).
Mark:
Right. The 2-stall engine house in Grass Valley burned sometime in the mid-thirties and was never rebuilt, as I remember. Whatever repairs were needed were done at a foundry building in the yards opposite the station. I'm not sure when the engine house in Nevada City disappeared, but I think that it was some time before the railroad was torn up in 1943, though the storage track near the turntable remained to park the locomotive overnight.
Though Nevada City was the end terminus of the railroad, the major shops and yards were located in Grass Valley. Nevada City had oil and water facilities, and of course a turntable and for a while, at least, an enginehouse, but if I remember correctly, that was about it.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Jacktal I'm presently designing my layout and am faced with a hard choice.As much as I'd like a roundhouse/turntable combo on the layout,the size of the whole set makes it quite impossible to fit where I'd like it to be.But if I drop the RH,the TT would nicely fit in a corner without eating up too much landscape and ruining my trackplan.Could I have a lonely TT as an "end of line" device with it possibly linked to a yard and perhaps having a track or two leading to a less space eating two stall rectangular building and still be prototypical?
I'm presently designing my layout and am faced with a hard choice.As much as I'd like a roundhouse/turntable combo on the layout,the size of the whole set makes it quite impossible to fit where I'd like it to be.But if I drop the RH,the TT would nicely fit in a corner without eating up too much landscape and ruining my trackplan.Could I have a lonely TT as an "end of line" device with it possibly linked to a yard and perhaps having a track or two leading to a less space eating two stall rectangular building and still be prototypical?
Some branch lines lack turntables as did some short lines..The locomotive would return to the yard tender first.The coming of the diesel doomed turntables and old fashion roundhouses.Some railroads used a single stall engine house on branch lines or in some cases there wasn't any engine house-just a shanty for the locomotive hostler.All he did was keep the fire banked in order to keep minimum steam pressure up.
Steam railroading isn't as cut and dry as many been lead to believe..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
At one time, the cities of Barre and Montpelier, VT were connected by 2 different railroads. One of them was the Montpelier and Wells River Railroad. The other was the Barre and Montpelier Branch of the Central Vermont.
The CV Station still stands in Barre. The passenger tracks were the eastern most tracks of the Branch line. Just past the Depot, the 2 tracks ended at a turntable. It was the end of the line. There was no roundhouse.
The turntable is long gone. Now a lone GP9R, number 804 lettered for the Green Mountain RR rules the branch (ex GMRC 1851, ex NS 2000). It is run by the Washington County Railroad (WACR). It lives in the engine house in Barre.
CAZEPHYR The NCNG had a turntable at Colfax California to turn the locomotives but no round house was ever built there. There are probably numberous examples of this on smaller branches where engine houses were not built. CZ
The NCNG had a turntable at Colfax California to turn the locomotives but no round house was ever built there. There are probably numberous examples of this on smaller branches where engine houses were not built.
CZ
CZ:
Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City. Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years). Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax). My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL! I made a really neat "Play Fort". The turntable in Grass Valley was built out on an 'abutment' overlooking the town from the terminal there, which ran above the town on a side-hill curve. I think you had to be REALLY careful spotting the locomotives.
Another example was Siskiyou Summit on the SP's secondary route between Black Butte and Eugene, OR. A turntable with no roundhouse smack in the middle of a forested mountain summit to turn helpers coming up from either Ashland (west) or Dunsmuir (east). The helpers were usually sent back light to either terminal, where there were both turntables and roundhouses.
At Colfax, on the SP Donner Pass route, there was a seven-stall engine house for helper locomotives to assist freights east up the 'Hill' to Norden, but no turntable. Colfax had a wye track for turning the helpers (usually 2-8-0's) that were cut in ahead of the AC Cab-forward's for the steepest part of the grade through Blue Canyon. There was a 'balloon' track at Emigrant Gap, some miles further up where the grade eased and the helpers could be turned around to run back to Colfax, or they continued up to the summit at Norden, where there was a covered turntable (no roundhouse) in the snowshed complex to be turned and sent back down the mountain.
Though not a 'turntable', SP also had a wye track near Cascade Summit on their 'Natron Cutoff" (the primary Portland/Oakland main line) for turning helpers coming 'west' (south) from Eugene. The tail end of the wye was in a tunnel.
None inspired more fear then the 90ft. NWP armstrong example that was built right up against a sheer drop involving several hundred feet to the river below! To add to the thrill effect, the turntable spur dropped down a short, steep grade from the mainline. Suffice to say, proper engine balance on this table was of upmost importance among the crew, probally as equally important as the ability to stop in time! Space and terrain precluded any type of structure, thus it was likely used to turn occasional helper movements.
Dave
In the Great Lakes area, where logging was generally done in the winter, it wasn't unheard of for logging railroads to have a turntable that covered the pit - kind of like the Atlas HO turntable I guess.
BATMAN The one question I still have is, what determined whether it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment. Brent
The one question I still have is, what determined whether it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment.
Brent
Several factors come into play. It will depend on how many tracks will lead off the table.There needs to be some form of pit wall at each track, so if there are quite a few tracks the pit is generally completely enclosed. But if there are only a couple of tracks each side, the pit may be left open around the rest of the circumference.
Topography also factors in. If the track lead is above the surrounding ground elevation, all that is required is an embankment for each of the few tracks, and with luck the "pit" area will be self draining. As you surmised, in areas of heavy snowfall it can be advantageous to have the pit partially open so mechanical equipment can get in to clear the snow out. Otherwise it is a lot of manual labour, or the use of steam to melt the snow.
John
Corkscrew Gulch turntable. This turntable did not last very long. It was an Armstrong type built essentially in the middle of nowhere. Below is the history. It could handle a 2-8-0 at that time which were not very big compared to some years later. Rolling stock was handled by this turntable much of the time requiring two locomotives. There was a lot of money in silver mining at that time and labor was very cheap. The grade was around 5 percent. In a search. Some articles mention a two truck shay the road had as a 0-4-4-0T. I found that quite interesting.
http://www.narrowgauge.org/ncmap/excur2_silverton_railroad_history.html
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
An "armstrong" manual turntable like you might find at the end of a branch line to turn a 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 wouldn't be all that expensive I'd think. It really was nothing more than a wood (or steel) bridge built on a pivot to rotate in the middle. You didn't have to have a concrete pit lining or anything fancy like that.
http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/turntables/4-4-0_46turntableperhapsWashingtonStJamaica.jpg
I love to go offroading around British Columbia to explore old rail lines CPR/Kettle Valley and PGE/BCR and CN. I am surprised at the number of old turntables or remnants thereof that I have come across.
I had always assumed that these were costly items for the railroads to install but maybe not. The one question I still have is, what determined weather it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment.
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Some railroads building out west around the 1870s would put in a hand powered turntable if the loco had to go a distance for more supplies while the railroad was being built. A have some photos of those.
One photo I have seen is a CW railroad put a turntable alongside a two stall engine house. The TT did not feed the engine house but this was wartime and only temporary.
One railroad put a hand powered turntable in a covered circular building on the side of a mountain to turn the loco so it could continue up the side of the mountain. For some reason, no switch back. They had to put any cars on the TT also. RMC had an article with period photos some years ago. The building was built over the TT to protect it from snow.The remants of the TT are pretty much coverd by trees and brush.
In that era, hand powerd simple balance TT's were not to difficult t build.
I've seen a few pics of a roundhouse still being used by a RR but with no turntable. Usually it resulted from the railroad going all-diesel, and deciding to fill in the turntable pit and replace it with turnouts to the stalls. However I do seem to recall one or two situations where a railroad built a roundhouse and had turnouts from the start. As you'd expect in either situation they're usually small 3-4-5 stall roundhouses; bigger than that the switch angles wouldn't work out right.
Phx Az circa 2009.
DSO17 Roundhouse w/o turntable - Wilmington DE had an old rectangular two stall enginehouse attached to a newer four or five stall roundhouse. All the stalls were accessed by switches. there was a turntable on a separate lead on the other side of Beech Street.
The Reading/Philadelphia & Reading/Wilmington & Northern facility at Beech St. has an interesting history.
The original turntable and "roundhouse" was oriented at right angles to the main track and the roudnhouse was actually rectangular. Then a new roundhouse was built roughly parallel to the main track. It had a turntable in the normal position. The original turntable was removed and the old roundhouse became a car shop. A rectangular car shop was added to the roundhouse and the original roundhouse was retired. When the turntable was replaced with a bigger one, it was moved to its own lead because Beech St crossed the turntable leads too close to the turntable to allow it to be enlarged.
So the final arrangement was a 2 stall rectangular car shop, a 3 stall roundhouse (it actually had five stalls, but two of them were always used as a machine shop) with a turntable separate from the roundhouse.
Here is a link to plans and a history of the last roundhouse. Although the HABS-HAER doesn't discuss the earlier roundhouse and turntable, it clearly shows on early Sanborn maps.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?hh:1:./temp/~ammem_t9Tx::
The tracks that parallel Oak St were the leads to the orignal roundhouse.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com