Ore train

[Anonymous]

I am attempting to build a small iron ore train from the later 1910s. So far i have a Bachmann 2-10-0 "Russian" Decapod (supposedly a brand new engine brought by my freelanced line), 25 Titchy Trains 22ft wood ore cars, and a 36ft Overton Combine as a caboose (which i can alternate with a caboose conversion of a 36ft Overton Baggage car). The grades over the freelanced line is supposed to be a maximum of 2% with a second Decapod being used as a banker at this point.

What I wanted to know was, how big an ore train would the prototype Russian Decapods be capable of hauling and how heavily loaded would the ore cars be. Have I already got too many cars or would the loco be capable of hauling a few more with the assistance of the banker over the grades?

Also does anyone know where i could get hold of some online JPG images of steam hauled ore trains of around this era for prototype reference?

[orsonroy]

For ore car train photos from the steam era, start looking on Fallen Flags, and work your way into the internet from there (follow the links aftrer the photo pages).

As for ore trains, they were HEAVY. A Russian Decapod could lug long trains on flat or slightly hilly terrain, but ore trains should be limited to no more than 10-12 cars.

As for a caboose, I'd go with a normal one. If your intent is to have a combination caboose/passenger carrier, an ore train is the wrong train for this sort of accomodation. Ore trains were supposed to be nothing but a conveyor belt between the mine and the ore docks, so were treated with priority (not necessarily speed). Stopping and starting a heavy ore train to loose money on picking up 1-3 passengers per trip isn't a way most railroads would operate. Let the passengers travel on general merchandise trains (and on a normal caboose with a few extra seats, which was MUCH more common. Maybe use a Roundhouse caboose with a side door. LCL traffic would be more common than passengers anyway).

Remember, ore trains make money, passengers LOSE money. Treat your trains with that in mind, and your railroad will be more realistic (whether the ore trains are carrying taconite or dilithium).

[Anonymous]

I have a small 12 car ore set. The decapod will need to cut the train in two and double it. There is a mallet on order that will reduce the work load on the decapod.

I am also thinking of taking advantage of the nearby river and planning a barge location to carry ore down to the harbor. This way these ore cars can be kept closer to home and free the decapod for local work and turns.

My two cents.

[joseph2]

In the USA ore cars were nicknamed "jimmyes". Great lakes ore lines ran mainly downhill from mine to Lake Superior.

[Anonymous]

The combine is going to be used to haul mine workers at the start / end of shifts - otherwise in using the caboose conversion of the full baggage car.

And im not hauling dilithium, its trilithium, which just hapens to be a rusty iron ore colour.

Mines a small mining concern with the loaded trains running downhill andway (bar the breif grade just out of the sorting yard) so i am assuming i could probably get away with slightly heavier trains by fitting another brake pump to the Decapod or using my Baldwin 4-6-0 as a pilot.

[randybc2003]

Another general rule to consider:
Loaded Ore trains GENERALLY went DOWNHILL. Empties went up hill. Review the operations of the DM&IR - ore went downhill to the lake. the empties went back up-hill. The exception might be to get a line through a "gap" out of a "park" or pearched valley.
Randy.

[cacole]

Out here in Arizona, ore trains from open pit copper mines run uphill to the crushers and smelters, and empties run down into the pit for loading. A large open pit operation by Kenecott Copper uses two GP locomotives to pull loaded ore cars out of the pit, and then exchanges loaded cars for empties midway between the pit and crusher with three other GPs that then pull the loaded cars up a steeper grade to the crusher. This line, the Copper Basin Railway, runs for over 20 miles between the pit and crusher.

[Anonymous]

After the arrival of the decapod and having had it sat my layout with a titchy 22ft wood ore car behind it and my Pennsy G39 (if thats right???) ore car behind it i have decided that the G39 looks better behind it. So a change of era might be happening (older type cars will still be used but as a preserved train)
Would one of these Russian Decapod type of engine survived for long enough to haul G39s and what roads other that the PRR/PC had these hoppers?

[Isambard]

Ross, if you're mathematically inclined and wi***o run numbers based on tractive effort, trailing tonnage and grade, look at my posted queries of 3 June '04 on "Trains Magazine Forums/Railroads/Effect of grade on train tonnage and horsepower" and "Steam locomotive tractive effort vs diesel electric horsepower", and the super responses.
Like you I puzzled as to how much tonnage Russian Decapods could handle, particularly as my Grizzly Northern has 3% grades on its main line, with a focus on heavy freight, including ore and coal. From a Google search under "Russian Decapod" I pulled up the following data on the Russians:
24 by 28 in. cylinders
52 in. dia. drivers
210,000 lbs locomotive weight
160 psi operating pressure
42,180 lbs tractive effort.
In practice I'm running double headers, typically ten cars and a caboose, powered by either two Russian Decapods or a Russian plus a 2-8-0 Consolidation (a Bachmann Spectrum), on the 0 % grade of a club layout. The typical 2-8-0 had about the same T.E. as the Russians.
The Grizzly Northern is briefly described in my 11 June response to the MR General Discussion poll "What Prototype area do you model?".

The Grizzly Northern has yet to acquire a fleet of ore cars for its mine branch line. How do you like the Tichy cars?

[dehusman]

Ore went up hill too. The LV and Pennsy ran one to Bethlehem with pooled power, Pennsy 2-10-0's and LV 2-10-2's.

The Russian Dec had about 51-52,000 lbs tractive effort, about the same as a heavy 2-8-0. The Reading rated an engine with a similar tractive effort (the I-8sc 2-8-0) on a 1.1% grade at 1100 tons. With a 2% grade it would be about half or 600-700 tons. A car probably weighs about 80 tons (50 tons load plus 30 tons car) so on a 2% grade a real decapod could handle 6-9 cars.

Dave H.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Ore went up hill too. The LV and Pennsy ran one to Bethlehem with pooled power, Pennsy 2-10-0's and LV 2-10-2's.

The Russian Dec had about 51-52,000 lbs tractive effort, about the same as a heavy 2-8-0. The Reading rated an engine with a similar tractive effort (the I-8sc 2-8-0) on a 1.1% grade at 1100 tons. With a 2% grade it would be about half or 600-700 tons. A car probably weighs about 80 tons (50 tons load plus 30 tons car) so on a 2% grade a real decapod could handle 6-9 cars.

Dave H.

Dave:
I'm interested your 51-52,000 lbs tractive effort for the Russian Decapods. I had lifted a TE value of 42,180 lbs for a 210,000 lb Russian Dec from one of the technical data websites, but can't recall where. I see in Linn Wescott's Steam Loco Cyclopedia a value of 51,490 lbs TE for a Reading 183,500 lb Russian Decapod.
Can you, or any other reader comment further?

[Anonymous]

Would probably have more tractive effort because of higher bolier pressure (160 psi is more the sort of pressure you would find on the most powerful British freight engines).

As for the Titchy cars, cant rate them highly enough, look great run well, easy to paint (provided you do it before assembling them otherwise its too fiddly) the only hard bit is the assembly of the trucks which has to be done very carefully otherwise the trucks dont run properly but they make a very good model.

The East Suffolk has a maximum grade of 2% so my fourteen car train is banked by a much bigger locomotive (in this case the Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2). The decapod is also "preseved power" over the other line, the Valiant Bay Terminal Company where is runs around with a rake of six G39s.

whats the address for Fallen Flags then?

[jrbarney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ross31s


whats the address for Fallen Flags then?

Ross31s,
The URL for the "fallen flags" Web site is:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-a/misc-a.html
just substitute the initial letter of the road for which you are searching for both of the "a's" after the two dashes, or truncate down to the basic domain name. It's full of photos for roads of which you haven't heard, ( and for that matter, which haven't heard of you.)[:)]
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[Anonymous]

cheers Bob, will be going to look at that site right now!

Ross

[twcenterprises]

Would one of these Russian Decapod type of engine survived for long enough to haul G39s and what roads other that the PRR/PC had these hoppers?

A local shortline had 10 Decapods, I believe 3 or 4 were Russians, the rest were virtually identical.  The last one was retired in 1959-1960, depending on which historical reference you trust.  They ran several more years in excursion service.

The line was the Gainesville Midland, if you care to look it up.  Still in operation today, under the ownership of CSX. 

IIRC, according to my sources, they had a tonnage rating of 4000 tons on reasonably flat track, a top speed of 55 MPH.  The boiler held 22,000 gallons of water, and the tender held 18,000 gallons of water, and 9 tons of coal (so I'm told).

Brad 

[dehusman]

The decapod is also "preseved power" over the other line, the Valiant Bay Terminal Company where is runs around with a rake of six G39s.

The "G39" is a mid 60's design that was also used by the SP.

So they would have been built 5-10 years after the last steamer operated on the Pennsy and probably 10-15 years after the last 2-6-6- or Russian  2-10-0 operated on a class 1.  Lets put it this way if you want to run G39's you could also operate 86' hi-cube auto parts cars or 57 ft mechanical reefers, because they were contemporary cars.

Dave H.

[R. T. POTEET]

Your 'Russian Dec' is, perhaps, not the best choice as a loke for the service you describe but it could be acceptable as long as, as joseph2 says, your (loaded) train is going downhill to some kind of unloading point, usually to a rail-to-water transfer.  That scenario puts only empties going uphill.  I'm not sure of exact figures but I recall seeing a photo of a DM&IR Yellowstone lugging a one hundred car ore train uphill with Lake Superior in the background but it was an EMPTY one hundred car ore train which is a horse of a different color from a LOADED one hundred car ore train.  A one hundred car ore train would be a true sight to behold on ANY model railroad - this is, I am sure, going to elicit at least one 'we do it on the XYZ railroad all the time' - reponse; unless you are planning on very short tangents in order to hide the locomotive from the caboose your train is going to be almost comically short.

Coal is considerably lighter than iron ore but it was, of course, conveyed in considerably larger dimensioned cars.  The reason coal haulers in the Appalachians used articulateds on their coal drags was because it always seemed like where-it-was-coming-from was on the opposite side of the hill from where-it-was-going-to.

[wjstix]

The combine is going to be used to haul mine workers at the start / end of shifts - otherwise in using the caboose conversion of the full baggage car.

And im not hauling dilithium, its trilithium, which just hapens to be a rusty iron ore colour.

Mines a small mining concern with the loaded trains running downhill andway (bar the breif grade just out of the sorting yard) so i am assuming i could probably get away with slightly heavier trains by fitting another brake pump to the Decapod or using my Baldwin 4-6-0 as a pilot.

If it's iron ore operations you're modelling, you'll need to re-think a number of things.

For one thing, miners in ore country lived near the mines. Here in Minnesota those sites were called "locations", unincorporated small villages built right next to the mine. Miners walked to work, they didn't ride in a combine or coach behind an ore train.  Remember the mainline railroads were a separate company from the mining company, although both might have the same parent co. like United States Steel. The Roundhouse three window caboose or side-door caboose are fairly close to Missabe cabooses and would be a good choice. 

The 2-10-0's built in the US for the Russian Imperial Rys. (and which were not allowed to be shipped by Pres. Wilson after the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917) were generally grabbed up by railroads like the Minneapolis Northfield and Southern that had lightweight track and needed the weight of the engine spread out over 10 driving wheels. By that time, iron ore haulers like the Duluth Missabe and Northern, Duluth and Iron Range and Great Northern were using big 2-10-2's, 2-8-8-2's and other mallets on mainline ore trains. (Soo Line did use a 2-10-0 for moving ore up and down the ore docks, both in MN and Wisconsin.) 4-6-0's had been used on ore trains in the 1880's-90's but were replaced by 2-8-0's and 2-8-2's and mallets. A 2-10-0 might have been used on a "mine run", a train of 30-40 ore cars running between a marshalling yard and a local mine's yard. 

Ore trains ran both up and down hill!! Yes on the Missabe ore trains from Proctor yards had to run downhill to get to the ore docks in Duluth; but on other railroads the trip to the ore dock was uphill. Plus on the ore cars in Proctor yard had come their via a roller-coaster up and down mainline...it wasn't unusual for the engine and front cars to be going downhill, while the middle of the ore train was going uphill, and the caboose and rear of the train going uphill!!  

There were instances of railroads using a helper engine for part of an ore train's trip (NP for example had a steep grade getting out of Duluth/Superior) but generally ore trains ran with one engine. If they needed to doublehead, they'd usually end up buying a bigger engine that could do it by itself.

You might want to consider modelling an ore company railroad, like Hanna Mining etc. Running shorter cuts of cars down a pit or up to the loading area of an underground mine. Sometimes these roads loaded cars directly into the mainline railroad's car, other times they loaded the raw ore into side-dump cars that would dump the ore into a beneficiator - an ore cleaner - which would then load the processed ore into the mainline ore jennies. Up until the taconite era, the mainline (DM&IR, GN) railroads never ran trains directly to the mine pits. 

<>

[ross31r]

Hi, new profile as i have changed email addresses and i cant access the old one as i have forgotten my password to the email account.

 As for why I am using a Russian decapod - the ESRR is suposedly a lightly built line in the New England area with a mega-parent (the PRR) so it was able to aquire two new Russians to replace its time expired 2-8-0s which had been with the line since opening in the 1890s.

Im doing a bit more "freelancing" with the engines to suggest that the Pennsy at some point took the locomotives into the shops for overhauling and they emerged with higher boiler pressure, dual air pumps (after all they operated heavy trains that needed a lot of braking power) and possibly a different stack arrangement as a result of modernisation.

Can anyone suggest a more suitable Ore jimmy than a G39 for the laste 30s then? I am assuming the Tithcy cars operated into the 30s but would be getting very old and tired at this point. I was thinking of maybe changing to the GN ore cars as operated on the dam project by the YV but im not sure who makes these and or if these would be suitable for my time period.

[Newyorkcentralfan]

Model Power and Walthers currently make ore cars that are from an era between the Tichy and the G39s.

http://modelpower.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=54

http://modelpower.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=103

MP offers them in  three packs or singularly.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-4560

Walthers are available in 4 packs and 12 packs. 

Surprisingly, the Wathers cars are considerably cheaper than the Model Power ones. 

IHC makes similar cars but their website says they're currently unavailable.

MDC/Roundhouse has similar cars that you can find on ebay. The taper side cars are models of C&NW cars built in the '20's and '30's, and also similar to the first Lake Superior & Ishpeming. 

The rectangular sided cars are models of Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range cars.

 

 

Can anyone suggest a more suitable Ore jimmy than a G39 for the laste 30s then? I am assuming the Tithcy cars operated into the 30s but would be getting very old and tired at this point. I was thinking of maybe changing to the GN ore cars as operated on the dam project by the YV but im not sure who makes these and or if these would be suitable for my time period.

[wjstix]

I know the Great Northern used some wood ore cars during the increase in production during 1933, I assume that was about the last time they were used.

The Walthers cars are models of "Minnesota cars" used on the Mesabi, Vermillion and Cuyuna ranges in MN, by GN, NP, Soo and DMIR. I've found their trucks to be poor runners, I ended up replacing the trucks with Life-Like ones and using Kadee shim-washers on the bolster to allow a little more room so the wheels don't scrape on the car bottom.

The MDC cars are based on Upper Michigan ore cars used by CNW and Milwaukee, the rectangular car I know is pretty much a dead ringer for the Milwaukee cars. The Upper Michigan cars are a little narrow and a little taller than the Minnesota cars, both in the prototype and models. 

The IHC cars look to me to be out of scale, a little too big - I wonder if they aren't OO scale??

 

[ross31r]

I was thinking that I will stick with the Titchy cars for now, maybe try and find the GN cras at a later date (I think that they are made by Westerfield, but i cant find the relevant MR article to check).

As for the Decapod, i will change the tender to the standard vanderbuilt that my line uses and maybe think about adding a few more details such as a PRR M1a style big airtank on the pilot deck, a second air pump, different pilot board and maybe change the stack for a shorter larger diameter stck or chanllenger style twin stck i havent decided yet.

[wjstix]

I was thinking that I will stick with the Titchy cars for now, maybe try and find the GN cras at a later date (I think that they are made by Westerfield, but i cant find the relevant MR article to check).

I'm pretty sure they were Westerfield, but I don't think they've been in production for a while - couldn't find them in the Walthers catalog online. The cars came in pairs and were kinda pricey IIRC.

[ross31r]

Thats who i thought they came from, will have to have a look and see if i can find any or if anyone is currently making the cars