What railroads met at St:Louis and Chicago?

[Lillen]

Hi,

 

I have a fairly simple question. I'm looking for railroads that the B&O would have been able to meet at St: Louis or Chicago, so my question is: What railroads met at St:Louis or Chicago?

EDIT: I'm looking for info about the 50's.

Magnus

[alfadawg01]

In St. Louis, for connections to the west and southwest, B&O met Missouri Pacific, Cotton Belt, Frisco, MKT.  Today it's CSX meets UP & BNSF.

[wjstix]

Well it's tempting for Chicago to say "all of them". If you include railroads that reached Chicago via trackage rights, joint operations, etc. there would be several dozen railroads converging on Chicago in the pre-merger era.

For example just from here (Minneapolis-St.Paul) you'd have the Milwaukee Road, Soo Line, Chicago Great Western, Chicago NorthWestern / Omaha Road and Burlington running to Chicago, plus the Burlington forwarded the trains of parent companies Northern Pacific and Great Northern (North Coast Limited, Empire Builder etc.) to Chicago. The Rock Island also served both Mpls-St.Paul and Chicago, but didn't have a direct mainline route between the two. The Soo Line and CNW/Omaha also had direct trains between Duluth-Superior and Chicago.

Also, the Minneapolis and St.Louis (which didn't go to St.Louis) called itself "The Peoria Gateway"; by ending their trains at Peoria Illinois they could connect up with other railroads without having to go thru the congestion of Chicago, often saving a day of shipping time in the process.

[dknelson]

I suggest getting the Steam Powered Video railroad atlas book for the midwest.  It has good maps of the Chicago area.  Another good source of a detailed map is

The B&O controlled a Chicago operation called the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal.  I am not sure all B&O interchange used the B&OCT but alot did. 

This website has a 1960 map of the B&OCT   

 http://www.railsandtrails.com/Maps/Chicago/index.htm

Here is a website with some info and a Google search will turn up more than this

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_and_Ohio_Chicago_Terminal_Railroad

This detailed website on Chicago area junctions may have information buried in it

http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/

Dave Nelson

 

 

 

[ndbprr]

You don't say a date for your answer but the best place to get that information is an Official Railway Equipment Register or ORER for the period.  In additon to information on all cars every railroad had in interchange service it lists the railroads and the interchnage points throughout their system.  Since railroads attempted to keep cars on their railroad for the longest portion of the run to maximize revenue B&O would primarily intercgange with western roads in those two cities.  They may not have done it directly as a lot of the interchange traffic in St. Louis was handled by the TRRA (Terminal Rail Road Association).  IHB, EJ&E and the Belt Railway serviced a lot of  the connections in CHicago.  So it will be a case by case answer.

[Texas Zepher]

I have a fairly simple question. I'm looking for railroads that the B&O would have been able to meet at St: Louis or Chicago, so my question is: What railroads met at St:Louis or Chicago?

Wow, Chicago is probably the biggest meeting point of east-west railroads in the country.  St. Louis the second.  The St. Louis Union Station was the largest in the country with 32 covered tracks, and later expanded to total of 42.  It was serviced by a triple "Y".

Many railroads that serviced these citys have gone away, so I'll ignore all the vintage railroads and stick to those major ones that were around in the transition era. 

Chicago Railroads-
Chicago Great Western
Chicago Burlington & Quincy \
Chicago Rock Island & Pacific -- These three were the original "pool" roads for the UP
Chicago Northwestern         /
Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Pacific
Chicago and Eastern Illinios
South Chicago & Indiana Harbor
Chesapeake and Ohio
Gulf Mobile and Ohio
Cleveland Cincinnati, Chicago St. Louis
Illinois Central
Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe
Grand Trunk Western
Pere Marquette
Pennsylvannia
New York Central
South Shore Line
Kansas City Southern
Erie or Erie Lackawanna depending on your time line
Norfolk & Western
bunches of short lines 
And ummm ummm

Missouri Pacific got to chicago on trackage rights C&EI maybe? 

Also note that NP and GN passenger trains came into Chicago on the CB&Q

For St. Louis you can add some of the southern lines:

Frisco
Missouri Pacific (headquartered in St. Louis)
Katy
Wabash
Louisville & Nashville
Great Northern International

Out of time.  I'll have to finish later......

 

 

[orsonroy]

According to the 1950 ORER listing for the B&O, here are the roads that they connected with at St Louis (many via TRRA):

A&S, C&EI, CB&Q, CRI&P, ESTLJ, FEDERAL BARGE, GM&O, IC, L&M, L&N, MRS, MVBL, MKT, MP, NYC, NKP, PRR, STL&BE, STL&OF, SLSF, SSW, SOUTHERN, TRRA, WABASH

And here's what they connected with at Chicago (many through B&OCT, a road actually run through the GM&O):

ATSF, B&OCT, BRC, C&O, PM, C&CR, C&EI, C&IW, C&NW, C&WI, CA&E, CB&Q, CGW, CHTT, CI&L, CJ, CMSTP&P, CPT, CR&I, CRI&P, CSL, CSS&SB, CWP&J, EJ&E, ERIE, GTW, GM&O, IC, IN,. IHB, MSTP&SSM, NYC, NKP, PRR, WABASH

So not quite ALL of the railroads in the USA, but pretty close.

[Lillen]

Thanks guys for all the help. Typing all that is no small task.

 

Thank you.

 

Magnus

[Beach Bill]

From the 1969 book Train Watcher's Guide to Chicago by John Szwajkart:

"(The B & O) has one line into the City from the east through Gary (Gary Union Station).  It splits at Pine Junction into separate freight and passenger lines.  The freight line heads west through State Line crossing to terminate at Barr Yard in Blue Island.  The passenger line heads northwest to South Chicago, the west through Pullman Junction and Gresham, north through 75th Street, Brighton Park, Ash, and 26th Street crossings to Robey Street Yard and east to terminate at Grand Central Station.  Between South Chicago and west of Gresham the B & O has trackage rights over the Rock Island."

"Major freight yard is Barr Yard in Blue Island.  Engine house is at the east end of the yard.  A secondary freight and passenger yard is Robey Street east of Western and Ogden (streets).  ....  Switching is done by the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal."

Grand Central Station was served by the B&O and the C&O, with switching at the station done by the B&OCT.       

Hope this helps to sort of set the stage for Chicago.

Bill

[Hudson]

I have a fairly simple question. I'm looking for railroads that the B&O would have been able to meet at St: Louis or Chicago, so my question is: What railroads met at St:Louis or Chicago?

Wow, Chicago is probably the biggest meeting point of east-west railroads in the country.  St. Louis the second.  The St. Louis Union Station was the largest in the country with 32 covered tracks, and later expanded to total of 42.  It was serviced by a triple "Y".

Many railroads that serviced these citys have gone away, so I'll ignore all the vintage railroads and stick to those major ones that were around in the transition era. 

Chicago Railroads-
Chicago Great Western
Chicago Burlington & Quincy \
Chicago Rock Island & Pacific -- These three were the original "pool" roads for the UP
Chicago Northwestern         /
Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Pacific
Chicago and Eastern Illinios
South Chicago & Indiana Harbor
Chesapeake and Ohio
Gulf Mobile and Ohio
Cleveland Cincinnati, Chicago St. Louis
Illinois Central
Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe
Grand Trunk Western
Pere Marquette
Pennsylvannia
New York Central
South Shore Line
Kansas City Southern
Erie or Erie Lackawanna depending on your time line
Norfolk & Western
bunches of short lines 
And ummm ummm

Missouri Pacific got to chicago on trackage rights C&EI maybe? 

Also note that NP and GN passenger trains came into Chicago on the CB&Q

For St. Louis you can add some of the southern lines:

Frisco
Missouri Pacific (headquartered in St. Louis)
Katy
Wabash
Louisville & Nashville
Great Northern International

Out of time.  I'll have to finish later......

 

 

 

Hey Tex........Actually TWO triple wyes at St. Louis.....................Very cool throat.....

[Black Sheep 25]

For St. Louis the B&O (coming from Caseysville, IL) you would have met the following:

At Caseyville, IL the B&O would have met the PRR mainline from Indianapolis, IN and paralled it all the way into East St. Louis. 

HN Cabin: A&S Alton & Southern, (there were others railroads there that had trackage rights over the A&S including: C&EI, NYC(possibly).

B&O Parrelled the PRR's (HUGE!!!) Rose Lake Yard until they reached Willows Junction (Williows Junction had a tower).

Willows Junction: TRRA, Southern, Cotton Belt (Possible interchange) and ITC Electric line to Lebanon, IL (traction Line0

3/4 of a mile west the B&O met the L&N mainline from Evansville, In, and both Railroads paralleled each other to Relay Jct.

B&O's main yard in East St. Louis would be Cone Yard. West of Cone yard is were Relay Junction  is and where the B&O passenger trains would hook up with the TRRA to take them into St. Louis Union Station.

The B&O also had a second yard about 1/4 of a mile north of the Eads Bridge.

The B&O and L&N had both their yards side-by-side, and the L&N interchanged with the B&O and the L&N yard is called 3rd street Yard.

Also: the B&O (Passenger) trains have used the MacAuthur's bridge, and also from my fathers personal experience he had seen B&O trains (passenger) across the Eads Bridge.

This is the typical B&O Operations in St. Louis in the 1950's. All B&O interchange in St. Louis was done by the TRRA. Also the CB&Q (Chicago Burlington and Qunicy) had trackage rights over the B&O into St. Louis from Shattuc, IL. Most of these were coal trains that went to the Peabody dumper located next to Poplar Street bridge, which is still there today, but not in service.

 

Black Sheep 25

P.S. I had drawn up a track plan for the B&O operations in East St. Louis, if you would like to see it, let me know. Mine was for the Late 50's early 60's.

[Lillen]

For St. Louis the B&O (coming from Caseysville, IL) you would have met the following:

At Caseyville, IL the B&O would have met the PRR mainline from Indianapolis, IN and paralled it all the way into East St. Louis. 

HN Cabin: A&S Alton & Southern, (there were others railroads there that had trackage rights over the A&S including: C&EI, NYC(possibly).

B&O Parrelled the PRR's (HUGE!!!) Rose Lake Yard until they reached Willows Junction (Williows Junction had a tower).

Willows Junction: TRRA, Southern, Cotton Belt (Possible interchange) and ITC Electric line to Lebanon, IL (traction Line0

3/4 of a mile west the B&O met the L&N mainline from Evansville, In, and both Railroads paralleled each other to Relay Jct.

B&O's main yard in East St. Louis would be Cone Yard. West of Cone yard is were Relay Junction  is and where the B&O passenger trains would hook up with the TRRA to take them into St. Louis Union Station.

The B&O also had a second yard about 1/4 of a mile north of the Eads Bridge.

The B&O and L&N had both their yards side-by-side, and the L&N interchanged with the B&O and the L&N yard is called 3rd street Yard.

Also: the B&O (Passenger) trains have used the MacAuthur's bridge, and also from my fathers personal experience he had seen B&O trains (passenger) across the Eads Bridge.

This is the typical B&O Operations in St. Louis in the 1950's. All B&O interchange in St. Louis was done by the TRRA. Also the CB&Q (Chicago Burlington and Qunicy) had trackage rights over the B&O into St. Louis from Shattuc, IL. Most of these were coal trains that went to the Peabody dumper located next to Poplar Street bridge, which is still there today, but not in service.

 

Black Sheep 25

P.S. I had drawn up a track plan for the B&O operations in East St. Louis, if you would like to see it, let me know. Mine was for the Late 50's early 60's.

 

 

I would love to see your track plan. I'm hard at work trying to make a good track plan. I get really stuck on yards since I've never really built a good yard.

Thanks for all this info.

 

Magnus 

 

[onebiglizard]

Lillen, I'd like to see you East St. Louis track plan also.  I am freelancing the MoPac and Frisco lines - circa 1960 or so - from points west of Kirkwood, Mo, and into St. Louis.  The layout will then cross the Mississippi (across the room doorway) into East St. Louis and TBD points east into Illinois.  I haven't yet decided which Illinois lines to focus on, but thinking about Illinois Central and ??? Hey, it's freelance!.

I need a yard and petrochemical plant in E. St. Louis,  and I'm also really interested in the Peabody dumper you mentioned by the Poplar St.  Bridge.  Illinois side, I presume?  I'll have to go look for it on the TerraServer areal photos.  Did this dumper provide for coal loading into river barges?  That's something I'd like to model!  Do you know of any pictures of this coal facility when it was in operation?

 Thanks,

 Lizard 

[Black Sheep 25]

Hey Lizard :)

Yeah the Peabody dumper was HUGE!!! and yes it could load three barges at once (Two Low Draft barges and one deep draft barge)! It had a triple loading belts that allowed to load so many barges so quickly. The CB&Q brought coal trains over the B&O trackage rights to Relay Jct, and then the TRRA would take the coal trains to the dumper. The Dumper was double track into the dumper and had four track on either side of the dumper to store the waiting cars.

The Peabody dumper actually for a time had its own railroad, called the 'The Peabody Shortline' and they owned three Alco RS-2. The Railroad was evently sold off to the Illinois Central and the IC got the three Alco RS-2's. The Peabody railroad also ran on their own line to the 'River King Mine #1' but the mine closed and the RS-2 were confined to the Peabody dumper. In fact when the IC took over the Peabody Shortline, they acquired the three RS-2's. These Alco RS-2's were the only Alco's that IC owned until the C-636 were purchased!

 The loader is currently located just north of the Poplar St. Bridge on the other side of the St. Louis Downtown area. If you wanted to model the whole peabody dumper you would need a space of about 3 feet by 12 inches. If you do not have the space, I recommend selective compression, and build the model the way you want.

Hope this helps, all the best.

Balck Sheep

[Black Sheep 25]

Hey Lizard :)

Yeah the Peabody dumper was HUGE!!! and yes it could load three barges at once (Two Low Draft barges and one deep draft barge)! It had a triple loading belts that allowed to load so many barges so quickly. The CB&Q brought coal trains over the B&O trackage rights to Relay Jct, and then the TRRA would take the coal trains to the dumper. The Dumper was double track into the dumper and had four track on either side of the dumper to store the waiting cars.

The Peabody dumper actually for a time had its own railroad, called the 'The Peabody Shortline' and they owned three Alco RS-2. The Railroad was evently sold off to the Illinois Central and the IC got the three Alco RS-2's. The Peabody railroad also ran on their own line to the 'River King Mine #1' but the mine closed and the RS-2 were confined to the Peabody dumper. In fact when the IC took over the Peabody Shortline, they acquired the three RS-2's. These Alco RS-2's were the only Alco's that IC owned until the C-636 were purchased!

 The loader is currently located just north of the Poplar St. Bridge on the other side of the St. Louis Downtown area. If you wanted to model the whole peabody dumper you would need a space of about 3 feet by 12 inches. If you do not have the space, I recommend selective compression, and build the model the way you want.

Hope this helps, all the best.

Black Sheep

[orsonroy]

These Alco RS-2's were the only Alco's that IC owned until the C-636 were purchased!

Not to pick a nit, but this isn't QUITE true. The IC bought nine HH-660 Alco switchers in 1935. They were retired before 1955.

But in general, the IC diesel fleet was all about EMD well into the 1960s.

The almost ordered 100 Trainmasters in the late 1950s. I wonder what that would have done to F-M's fortunes...

[Black Sheep 25]

Yes, you are right, I forgot about those engines. Those HH-660 units after talking to some old IC guys in Louisville, KY told us that those nine engines were some troublesome that IC did not buy anything from Alco until the C-636

So you were right!

Also how is your layout coming along, NKP in Peoria, IL that sounds awesome. I was designing the NYC/NKP joint line out of Layafette, IN to Templeton, IN, and of course you have to have steam.

Black Sheep 25

[Black Sheep 25]

Big Lizard

If you would like I found a picture (mind you it is small) of the Peabody dumper in St. Louis on Google. I also found a picture of what the Peabody Dumper looks like today if you want them.

If you do, give me your email address and I can send them off,

Black Sheep 25