Greetings, fellas!
I've been putting together a Proto 2000 10K gallon tank car and began musing about the detailing. When did railroads begin to implement placards on tank cars? Is my understanding correct that those placards were removable - i.e. depending on whether the tank car was empty or "purged"?
I'm assuming that most modern tank cars are generally designed/designated for the transportation and dispersal of a particular commodity. Was this also the case for the earlier riveted and welded tank cars (e.g. 8K and 10K versions) back in the 1910s-1940s?
I poked around the Internet some but didn't really find much information to answer my questions. I appreciate the help. Thanks...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Greetings, fellas! I've been putting together a Proto 2000 10K gallon tank car and began musing about the detailing. When did railroads begin to implement placards on tank cars? Is my understanding correct that those placards were removable - i.e. depending on whether the tank car was empty or "purged"? I poked around the Internet some but didn't really find much information to answer my questions. I appreciate the help. Thanks...
Luckily for modelers, there is an authoritative and complete magazine article on this subject, by John Ryczkowski, in Mainline Modeler (Volume 14, January 1993, pages 68–73). John clearly describes the various placards of different eras, and makes clear that my modeling year of 1953 was very different from more recent years. Any modern modeler reading this post can find detailed descriptions and images of contemporary practice all over the Internet, but for older material, you’ll pretty much have to consult John’s article.
Thanks, Chutton. I skimmed through a similar page on Tony Thompson's blog site but didn't see that specific page. What he mentions is quite helpful. I'll see if I can't hunt down a copy of that Jan '93 MM article, too.
Thanks again...
Tom,
I can only answer part of your question,when the tank car was loaded,it required the appropriate placard for the material being shipped,Flammable Red color,,White Black corrosives,,White background,with Black Skull and crossbones,Poison..When the tank is empty,the Placards must be removed,before the car is moved. The diamond shape Placard holder stays on the car always..Over the years,the placard was made mainly of thick white paper with the appropriate color and wording,,I believe it was the 80's a corresponding number for the material being shipped,is also on the placard...I don't know about the railroad,but in the trucking industry,if you are hauling a Hazmat load,you better have the correct paperwork and placards,because it is a 15,000 dollar fine for the driver and the company,,that also holds true,if you are empty and forget to remove them.. I had a endorsement for hauling Hazmat on my CDL..
Cheers,
FRANK
Thanks for the input, Frank - especially about the placard holder always staying in place. I located the specific back issue of Mainline Modeler online but it's not available.
Hi, Tom
Your inquiry is very interesting. I looked through my 1940 Car Builder's Cyclopedia and although there is a great deal of information there about AAR tank car specifications, etc. I did not find anything specific about placards. The Cyc mentions an AAR committee meeting in 1913 to address tank car safety and testing standards but there are only excerpts.
The Bureau of Explosives (BOE) is a unique membership organization dedicated to helping carriers, shippers, and container manufacturers continually improve hazardous materials (hazmat) transportation safety.
Formed in 1907 by the railroad industry to serve as a self-policing agency to advance the safe transportation of explosives and other dangerous articles, the BOE actually developed the first hazmat safety rules, which were later adopted and expanded upon by the Interstate Commerce Commission and later the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT).
http://www.boe.aar.com/boe-download.htm
I have an old tank car plackard in my collection of junk around here somewhere. When I dig it up I'll post a photo. Usually, the card was reversed to read EMPTY until such time as the car could be cleaned and purged. Vapors still being hazardous.
Plackards were also used on house cars and even flat cars if an explosive or other hazardous material was being carried. My employer used to ship gas in cylinders by box car and these had to be placarded. I remember reading about a huge explosion when box cars of gunpowder exploded after catching fire caused by a hotbox. [edit: looks like there were three incidents. Sticking brake, hotbox and undetermined. Ed]
Take care, Ed
Matt Snell wrote a good article for Model Railroader on hazardous material markings and placards in the May 2010 issue. He writes that the placards we see today are basically those of the US DOT mandated since 1990.
However the distinctive diamond shaped placard holder has been part of tank cars since the 1920s if not before. A Train Shed Cyclopedia No 12 covers tank cars and reprints pages from old Car Builders Cyclopedias 1922 to 1943. Even the oldest pages show the placard holders, although not on every car. The photos suggest they were on both sides and ends, at least on some cars. And not every car has them although these are builder's photos and the placards may not have been installed yet. From what I can read on the fuzzy photos the placards indicated flammable load rather than today's color/number system that gives more notion of what the load is. The older tank cars were lettered to show the intended load just as they generally are today
There may have been other messages than just "flammable" on the old placards - I just cannot read them.
This explains why the traditional blue box Athearn tank car kits, which often took from the older Car Builder's Cycs, included a stamped black metal placard holder in the bag of parts. Athearn used to sell those as an after market item as well.
My own 1937 Car Builder's Cyclopedia suggests that the AAR Committee on tank cars first reported on placard holders (with drawings for a metal holder) in its 1931 report, but there were placard holders of seemingl standard size well before then. There is no mention of standardized placard card content.
Dave Nelson
Here's the photos, Tom. I don't know the age of this placard but it has been in my collection since 1970 and it was pretty old even then...
Placard1 by Edmund, on Flickr
And the reverse side...
Placard2 by Edmund, on Flickr
ALSO, not really tank car related but certainly a hazmat issue, here's a link to the 1973 box car explosion that I had previously referenced. Interesting reading. Note that a railway enthusiast witnessed the fire while making sound recordings of the train... why would some kook be making recordings of TRAINS?
http://www.insensitivemunitions.org/history/railroad-train-fires-and-munition-explosions/
Hope this helps, ED
gmpullman
Cat got your tongue, Ed? Or, is this a picture of one of the blank placards.
Hi, Tom...
After spending 20 minutes writing the post I clicked the blue button and it had DISAPPEARED!
So I had to start from scratch! And in my frustration I forgot to make the link to the boxcar explosion!
Also, FYI Microscale offers a sheet of Railroad Graffitti & Placards 87-228 but be aware that these placards are the more contemporary DOT UN symbols. Not appropriate for the '30s through '50s...
Ed
The placard posted by gmpullman would be appropriate for hazardous cars up through the 1950's. By the 1970's they were using the "modern" color coded style, but with the hazard class written out and no UN number. By the 1980's the UN numbers were showing up and they are pretty much standard. In the 1990's the square white background on TIH-PIH showed up.
Note that the commodity was "inflammable" which always bugged me because "inflammable" should mean unable to burn instead of able to burn.
The BOE set the standards for handling hazmat until the federal government put in the CFR.
It is costly to clean a tank car, so they tend to stay in the same service. Different commodities require different linings, which wouldn't be apparent from the exterior. Tank cars were privately owned and leased to companies so when they changed commodities was pretty tightly controlled.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
tstageWhen did railroads begin to implement placards on tank cars?
Well, here's evidence of a placard in the diamond shape as of 11/10/1924! Interesting to note that many trucks today use a very similar aluminum design that can be "flipped" for many commodities!
Enjoy! Ed
Basically,the Railroads and Truck transportation of Hazardous materials,are all the same now. The placards,must be displayed,on all four sides of the equipment,front,rear and both sides,no exceptions.On a truck trailer, tanker and Intermodal container,a hazmat placard,must be used for any commodity over 1000lbs and multiple placards,if more than one commodity of hazardous material is shipped in the same container,,excluding poison,that must be shipped alone. You even have to mark,on your shipping papers,on a floor plan,where it is located,in the container..excluding tankers,that's obvious..
Frank
dehusman Note that the commodity was "inflammable" which always bugged me because "inflammable" should mean unable to burn instead of able to burn.
Flammable and inflammable mean the same thing - - - burns easily, catches fire readily. In fact, inflammable was more commonly used than flammable until the middle of the 20th century.
If something does not burn easily, or catch fire readily, it is considered non flammable.
Rich
Alton Junction
I understand they are used the same, but they shouldn't be.
Insane is the opposite of sane.
Intolerable it the opposite of tolerable.
Incongruous is the opposite of congruous.
Shouldn't inflammable be the opposite of flammable? The "in" prefix means "not" for the rest of the English language.
Not all people living in this country,are English speaking??
Seeing as how all of us are talking about Diamond shaped Hazmat placards,do any of you recall the placards that were Rectangle shape? 5 inches wide,by approximately 20 inches long,they were used in the trucking industry,before the Diamond shape standard..
dehusman I understand they are used the same, but they shouldn't be. Insane is the opposite of sane. Intolerable it the opposite of tolerable. Incongruous is the opposite of congruous. Shouldn't inflammable be the opposite of flammable? The "in" prefix means "not" for the rest of the English language.
Well, we both digress, but there is a critical difference here.
The three words you cited stand alone in their meaning so adding the prefix in connotes the negative or opposite meaning.
In the case of inflammable, it was not historically meant as the opposite of flammable. Rather, it is derived from the word inflame, thus, inflammable. So, inflammable should not be the opposite of flammable. To avoid confusion, however, the words non flammable became popular in the 20th century.
Edit Note: Hey, maybe the word on the placard should have read ininflammable.
The 1979 MKT hazmat instructions have no examples of placards with the UN number, but do have the "modern" multi-colored diamond shaped placards. There are also examples of the placards with the square white background.
A 1961 PRR general notice booklet on the transportation of explosives and other dangerous articles shows an 11x14 rectangular placard for Explosives and poison gas, and a 10 3/4" square diamond shaped placard like the one previously posted dangerous cargo and a similar one for radioactive. In addition there is a special diamond shaped placard for residual phosphorus and a larger rectangular placard, 13x17, for flammable poison gas. The empty side of the placards had the half black, half white pattern.
I believe you are talking about Railroads,with the rectangular placards,I was talking about,the placards,used in the trucking industry. I put many of them on trailers,starting 1964,that is when I started working for a common carrier Truck Line,called Moore Freight Line,in Chicago,bought out by Indianhead Trk Line,out of St. Paul,Min. Stayed with them until 1982..Railroads placards were different,than truck placards,when I started..
Tom, this SP modeling link may be useful to you:
http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2012/03/tank-car-placards-prototype.html
NYandLB_Fan Tom, this SP modeling link may be useful to you: http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2012/03/tank-car-placards-prototype.html
Yep, Tom did find that link somewhat helpful back when I posted it in Post #2!If anything, you could have at least posted the follow up blog entry: Tank Car Placards - Modeling, but I'm not sure that entry is all that fired helpful to the OP, as the author refers a lot to a specific book Tank Cars, American Car & Foundry Company, 1865 to 1955.His recommendation of rotating placard holders to model loads in/empties out is a nice touch, though.
Dknelson,
That was interesting, Dave,got a chuckle,out of that one.
dknelson dehusman I understand they are used the same, but they shouldn't be. Insane is the opposite of sane. Intolerable it the opposite of tolerable. Incongruous is the opposite of congruous. Shouldn't inflammable be the opposite of flammable? The "in" prefix means "not" for the rest of the English language. Ah but on that theory, "intense" would mean relaxed. Danish pianist Victor Borge made an entire career of making fun of our language's incongruities. As he said, if the people of Portugal are Portugese, then any one individual from Portugal should be a Portugoose, Dave Nelson
Frank, when a tank truck or tank car is emptied of a hazardous chemical, but still has residue in it, does one still remove the placarding? My understanding is that a empty but dirty tank is as much or more dangerous than a full one, due to the fumes. Thanks
Ted
Originally the placard would be turned and display the back side to indicate the car was now an "empty". I recall the backgrounds were half black, half white and the text still listed the class of commodity. Unless they are purged, an "empty" tank car will still have some product remaining with a large amount of vapor. Particularly if it is a petroleum product, that can make it more prone to explosion if punctured. With other nasty chemicals that are not combustible, an "empty" car will pose far less danger. But the danger is still there, so today standard practice is to always leave the placard in place.
Cars will only be purged if they are going to be transferred to some other service, or if required for repairs. They will mostly stay with the single commodity. Purging is not done casually, since the car has to be sent to a shop with the training and facilities to do the work and the hazardous waste needs to be disposed of properly.
John
Ted,
In answer to your question. On a truck tank trailer,whose purpose, is strictly,to carry bulk commodities,like gasoline,the placards stay on the equipment always. And almost always,the tractor,that pulls said tanker,is dedicated to that same tanker. The only time it is unhooked from the truck,is for maintenance. The dolly legs are not strong enough,to support a loaded tanker. If you ever see one dropped without a tractor,it is empty. The other van trailers that haul hazmat,the commodities,are usually drums,cartons,gaylords and such,those placards,must be removed when empty. Hope that answered your question.
zstripeTed, In answer to your question. On a truck tank trailer whose purpose is strictly to carry bulk commodities, like gasoline, the placards stay on the equipment always.
In answer to your question. On a truck tank trailer whose purpose is strictly to carry bulk commodities, like gasoline, the placards stay on the equipment always.
Correct, until such time as it is washed and purged. Quite rare for fuel tankers and such. Chemical tanks may retain HazMat placards until they are washed and purged, at which time they are to be removed (fairly common).
zstripe And almost always, the tractor that pulls said tanker is dedicated to that same tanker. The only time it is unhooked from the truck is for maintenance. The dolly legs are not strong enough to support a loaded tanker. If you ever see one dropped without a tractor, it is empty.
Not entirely true, the legs must be able to support a loaded trailer in the event the tractor fails out on the road and another one must take over. But I'll agree, companies generally prefer fuel trailers to not be dropped while loaded. And I'll further agree that some trucks may pull the same tank for days on end.
zstripeThe other van trailers that haul hazmat, the commodities are usually drums, cartons, gaylords and such, those placards must be removed when empty. Hope that answered your question. Frank
Again, quite correct, assuming there is no residue or vapors.
I base my responses on the fact I haul a tank trailer 6 days a week, for the last four years. Mine is usually loaded and dropped prior to my arrival. It's a stainless steel chemical-type tank, but I haul a non-hazardous commodity. An aluminum tank would not last more than a year or two.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Brad,
So does that mean,I passed my Hazmat test ? I only drove a truck,45 yrs of my life, my own included.
I spent 33 years working in the chemical industry and had responsibillity for shipping during a portion of that time. I started working in 1966 and remember 10,000 gallon cars having placard holders at that time. By the early 1970's regulations were strengthened on the use of placards for all hazardous commodities shipped by rail. The shipper was resposible for proper placard placement. With chemical commodities my experience was that cars were used for dedicated service and usually ran empty one direction. One of the products I was directly associated with had a fleet of private company owned 10,000 gallon cars build in the late 1940's that reached their allowable service life while I was still involved with the product. That's why you see very few 10,000 gal cars in service today as most have been retired and replaced with 20,000 to 30,000 gal cars. This information is offered from a user's prospective.