Ah, I see it now. Thanks, guys. I must have been tired when I first looked at the diagram because I concluded that the left side triple loop was all on one level...don't know why, but it explains the bone-headed question.
So, I am happier, and I think it really does work.
selector wrote: That works.Just so I am clear about your operations at right, at RR, some trains will back all the way, drop or pick, and then move forward back to the rest of the layout? And some trains will depart Train City or the yard and do (something) at Rock Ridge, and then reverse all the way back?
That works.
Just so I am clear about your operations at right, at RR, some trains will back all the way, drop or pick, and then move forward back to the rest of the layout? And some trains will depart Train City or the yard and do (something) at Rock Ridge, and then reverse all the way back?
What Spidge said.
I can envision a turn where empties are brought to the mine and ore cars are brought to Train City. Although I don't have plans for a mill in TC. I do in Virginia City in the future. It wouldn't so much back down as head the train with the engine in reverse.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
John
I got talked out of/talked myself out of under the layout staging. I remember how much I hated crawling under the layout on my old layout and to have all those turnouts under there...
This solution reduces the number of trains I can stage fro 12 to 8, but brings them out in the open.
In this version, I have the extra siding, but it cannot be an A/D track because it does not connect with the yard.
spidge wrote: Chip, I liked the station against the noth wall better. Would you be willing to move the icing platform to the wall behind the yard, this would eliminate a couple turnouts there that are difficult to reach.You seem to have more classification tracks than you need. Can you make the 2nd track in from the wall(yard side) an escape track, and the next track in would be your arrival track?The next three tracks would be clas tracks and a caboose track at the end. You could use any clas track as a departure track as if you sort the incoming cars ASAP then each track would have a train ready most of the time.In the curve you would still have at least two tracks, mainline and yard lead. You would be surprised as to haw little it takes to fill that drill track up when classifying trains.Another thought would to put the turntable and roundhouse against the wall. Then the arriving locos would escape adjascent the service tracks, and you would have more linier space for the service tracks. This would free up the front of the layout for industries. You could then put a caboose track along the ladder track and serve industries off the track closest the edge.If I remember correctly you will be running short trains, correct? If so then you don't need but 2 or 3 clas tracks and they don't have to be super long.
Chip, I liked the station against the noth wall better. Would you be willing to move the icing platform to the wall behind the yard, this would eliminate a couple turnouts there that are difficult to reach.
You seem to have more classification tracks than you need. Can you make the 2nd track in from the wall(yard side) an escape track, and the next track in would be your arrival track?
The next three tracks would be clas tracks and a caboose track at the end. You could use any clas track as a departure track as if you sort the incoming cars ASAP then each track would have a train ready most of the time.
In the curve you would still have at least two tracks, mainline and yard lead. You would be surprised as to haw little it takes to fill that drill track up when classifying trains.
Another thought would to put the turntable and roundhouse against the wall. Then the arriving locos would escape adjascent the service tracks, and you would have more linier space for the service tracks. This would free up the front of the layout for industries. You could then put a caboose track along the ladder track and serve industries off the track closest the edge.
If I remember correctly you will be running short trains, correct? If so then you don't need but 2 or 3 clas tracks and they don't have to be super long.
Thanks Spidge. I think I answered all your concerns in the post to Dave. The far turnouts in the industry tracks will be hand throws on the facia (via piano wire), but coupling and uncoupling might be an issue. Spotting cars at the industries might be a PIA, but every train will have an engine that rotates out of service so there will be less action back there. I agree that the yards might be long--but when Train City becomes the tight spot in the basement layout, they might be a help. Some trains might be double-headed and may therefore run up to 12 cars in length. However, they may not be end of destination for Train City.
dehusman wrote: I guess I don't have a good understanding of what you envision your operation will be. Maybe if you described what you see the trains doing.
I guess I don't have a good understanding of what you envision your operation will be. Maybe if you described what you see the trains doing.
On the contrary, your questions are a big help. It makes me think things through. If my answers to your questions don't do it, I'll describe a typical train later.
For example, when you say you are going to ice reefers, what exactly do you mean? Are you planning to ice one or two reefers and then spot them for loading or are you planning to stop a solid reefer train and top off the ice enroute or are you planning to set out reefers from trains to be iced enroute or are you planning to stop through freights and top off the reefers in the train enroute? Makes a big difference on the facility. If you are planning to ice cars in a train then you need 2 train lengths of room on the siding with the ice dock near the center so you can get to any car in the train. If you have a train going through Train City towards Rock Ridge that has the reefer next to the caboose you will block both the main and the siding to spot the reefer. If you put the siding on the back side of the main and put the ice dock in the center of the siding you now can stop a train and ice reefers all day long without blocking anything. That eliminates one double slip switch too. It would be worth the room to move the main and current siding 2 inches forward, even if that meant losing 2 in on every yard track, in order to put a second siding for the ice dock behind the main.
I imagined two or three refers on a mixed freight getting topped off. I did not imagine produce or meat originating from Train City, but it is not out of the question. I suggest adding another track in an earlier post, so you don have to talk me into this one. That double slip was on it's last legs anyway, It was supposed to make it easier for the engine to escape, but it really didn't serve that function well.
All the crossovers in the back track is totally unnecessary and wastes money. If you gotta have crossovers, put a pair in the center facing in opposite directions, then lose the ones near the ends. Losing the one closest to the main also eliminates a double slip switch in the lead. Two down.
Here is the section on I worked on to clarify for you. The two tracks with all those crossovers serve 11 industries. They were not drawn in previous versions, just refereed to.
I hate the way the drawings come out on here. At any rate, the crossovers mean that I don't have to pull 9 cars to switch 1 industry at the bottom.
It appears the Train City depot is buried in the yard next to the cattle pens (you really know how to attract the public to ride your trains<G>). So every passenger train will have to pull or shove into the yard, move any cars spotted at the stock pens, make its station stop, respot the cattle cars, then shove or pull back out to the main.
The station has always been above the main in the center, near the main section of town (represented by false fronts and backdrop). On one side of the cattle pens is the foundry (what I think you took for the station) and on the other side is the lumber yard. You are showing great patience with me if you thought the station was in the yard.
Since you've move the ice dock behind the main that frees up that end of the siding to reverse the Bear Wiz spur and run it off the current siding into a new location in the city. That lets the station move to the area near the current Bear Wiz switch. The current station track now becomes a "coach yard" to hold a passenger train between runs or just becomes a stock track and a team track.
I'll think about this. The Bear Wiz complex is a bit bigger than the main building shown. There is a warehouse that will sit on the second track. There is an office structure off the back of the building. There is a corral and stable for the delivery horses. This is the largest industrial complex on the layout when you count all this. The foundry building will be a little bigger, but in area occupied the brewery is the largest.
What you are actually doing is using the leads as your "arrival" and "departure" tracks. Typically a model railroad yard has the A/D tracks along side the class yard, you have placed them end to end. Not that that is a problem you just have to recognize it and anticipate it in your design.
Yes and no. The siding is what I am really calling the A/D track, but in reality I am trying to clear it quickly. The track into the industrial siding is not really needed to switch the industries, so I am stripping the cab and either pushing or pulling the train into that siding. But that is only if the entire train is being broken down. If only a car or two is being set out, that is where they will go. If there is just a power change it will sit on the A/D track.
I'm not using the industry lead track to build trains. Those will be set out on the A/D track. The shorter spur is a caboose track. It is a little long in the above drawing.
Here are some suggestions.Try flopping the design from right to left. Try rotating the design 90 degrees so the yard runs perpendicular to the stairs and Rock Ridge is against the right wall (that would require flopping Rock Ridge over so it would be on the interior.) That might left the mains pierce the wall toward the bottom end of the helix, maybe with a "wye" near the yard.Dave H.
Dave H.
There is a couple years work in the town of Rock Ridge, it is detailed and many of the structures are scratched or bashed to fit. Flopping it, would mean starting over. The only place I could get the section located was on the peninsula. The layout was literally designed around it.
I guess I don't have a good understanding of what you envision your operation will be. Maybe if you described what you see the trains doing. For example, when you say you are going to ice reefers, what exactly do you mean? Are you planning to ice one or two reefers and then spot them for loading or are you planning to stop a solid reefer train and top off the ice enroute or are you planning to set out reefers from trains to be iced enroute or are you planning to stop through freights and top off the reefers in the train enroute? Makes a big difference on the facility. If you are planning to ice cars in a train then you need 2 train lengths of room on the siding with the ice dock near the center so you can get to any car in the train. If you have a train going through Train City towards Rock Ridge that has the reefer next to the caboose you will block both the main and the siding to spot the reefer. If you put the siding on the back side of the main and put the ice dock in the center of the siding you now can stop a train and ice reefers all day long without blocking anything. That eliminates one double slip switch too. It would be worth the room to move the main and current siding 2 inches forward, even if that meant losing 2 in on every yard track, in order to put a second siding for the ice dock behind the main.All the crossovers in the back track is totally unnecessary and wastes money. If you gotta have crossovers, put a pair in the center facing in opposite directions, then lose the ones near the ends. Losing the one closest to the main also eliminates a double slip switch in the lead. Two down. It appears the Train City depot is buried in the yard next to the cattle pens (you really know how to attract the public to ride your trains<G>). So every passenger train will have to pull or shove into the yard, move any cars spotted at the stock pens, make its station stop, respot the cattle cars, then shove or pull back out to the main. Since you've move the ice dock behind the main that frees up that end of the siding to reverse the Bear Wiz spur and run it off the current siding into a new location in the city. That lets the station move to the area near the current Bear Wiz switch. The current station track now becomes a "coach yard" to hold a passenger train between runs or just becomes a stock track and a team track.What you are actually doing is using the leads as your "arrival" and "departure" tracks. Typically a model railroad yard has the A/D tracks along side the class yard, you have placed them end to end. Not that that is a problem you just have to recognize it and anticipate it in your design.Here are some suggestions.Try flopping the design from right to left. Try rotating the design 90 degrees so the yard runs perpendicular to the stairs and Rock Ridge is against the right wall (that would require flopping Rock Ridge over so it would be on the interior.) That might left the mains pierce the wall toward the bottom end of the helix, maybe with a "wye" near the yard.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Texas Zepher wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: I made a few adjustments to the yard, but I have not flipped the main and siding. I keep trying to simplify and end up with more complexity , although I think these improvements make sense--at the cost of 4 double-slips.Not that it hurts anyting, but I don't really think you need a double-slip where the ladder by-pass and the inside entry to the yard meet. That could just be a crossing. I don't see any need to go from the bypass track to that yard track - or am I missing something? Getting from that yard track to the roundhouse it is only another loco length down the track (toward the top)to the other entrance.
SpaceMouse wrote: I made a few adjustments to the yard, but I have not flipped the main and siding. I keep trying to simplify and end up with more complexity , although I think these improvements make sense--at the cost of 4 double-slips.
I'm figuring that the double slips will be about $15 ea, as I have decided to get the FastTracks jig. Because of that, I might be going over-board on the double-slips. I figure if I make 4 or 5 extra double slips and sell them on eBay, I'll pay for the jig.
Maybe what you are not seeing or remembering is that the two outside tracks are for servicing industry. The yard lead is the second track in. The lead into the industrial area is a de facto arrival track.
I made a few adjustments to the yard, but I have not flipped the main and siding. I keep trying to simplify and end up with more complexity , although I think these improvements make sense--at the cost of 4 double-slips. Selector will be happy.
At any rate, I still don't fully understand the benefit of flipping the siding. Would not moving the icing platform to the other side of the main do the same thing--or better yet, move it between the main and siding?
SpaceMouse wrote:Hence the dilemma. I either have to redesign the yard or redo my ops thinking. Something has to give.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
SpaceMouse wrote: Train City Yard becomes a hot spot for operations. All trains east or west have to stop for power change and icing of refers. Passenger trains also have to change power. <snip>In the mean time, There will be trains coming from both east and west to enter the yard. Meaning 2 more people. Add the guys running the locals and you have 3-4 people humping trains in that small little space. Either that, or trains stack-up on the main awaiting for permission to enter the yard. It's going to be really busy and really tight.
Sounds to me like your plan calls for EVERY train to work Train City yard anyway, so it really doesn't matter, EVERY train has to stop there.
Basically its not a really fluid design. Its not designed to facilitate what you have planned. Having 3-4 guys trying to work that yard will ball it up really tight. You might be able to move one mainline train and one other train at the same time, depending on what they have to do.
dehusman wrote: You don't need to squeeze in another track, just put the siding on the other side of the main. Still two tracks through the scene just put the siding in the back. Basically swap left hand and right hand switches at the ends of the siding.Dave H.
You don't need to squeeze in another track, just put the siding on the other side of the main. Still two tracks through the scene just put the siding in the back. Basically swap left hand and right hand switches at the ends of the siding.
But then I have 5 turnouts coming off the main, and the main bein an integral part of the yard. I understand that I have a bottleneck, but aren't I just trading one bottle neck for another?
dehusman wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: With this layout as a stand alone, the issue of trains entering train city right out of the tunnel is an issue. I don't see that as an issue. If you are operating on TT&TO, unless somebody is flagging it won't make any difference since you aren't relying on signals to control anything.Trains could be held via signals to line shacks on sidings via telegraphs. Then you aren't running TT&TO, you are running manual block and that really didn't work that way either. But you don't appear to be close to that anyway.You have way too much going on at Train City siding. You will have to block both the siding and the main to ice reefers, any train making a meet will block a train from departing a yard. Technically if you have a superior (by timetable direction) train in Train City yard, and it has a meet at Train city with another train, the superior train won't ever leave because the inferior train would hold the siding and block the superior train from leaving. From a TT&TO perspective you should reverse the main and the siding and have all the switches to the yard break off the main and put the siding and icehouse in the back with the ice house on the left end. That solves a whole bunch of train meet issues.Dave H.
SpaceMouse wrote: With this layout as a stand alone, the issue of trains entering train city right out of the tunnel is an issue.
I don't see that as an issue. If you are operating on TT&TO, unless somebody is flagging it won't make any difference since you aren't relying on signals to control anything.
Trains could be held via signals to line shacks on sidings via telegraphs.
Then you aren't running TT&TO, you are running manual block and that really didn't work that way either. But you don't appear to be close to that anyway.
You have way too much going on at Train City siding. You will have to block both the siding and the main to ice reefers, any train making a meet will block a train from departing a yard. Technically if you have a superior (by timetable direction) train in Train City yard, and it has a meet at Train city with another train, the superior train won't ever leave because the inferior train would hold the siding and block the superior train from leaving. From a TT&TO perspective you should reverse the main and the siding and have all the switches to the yard break off the main and put the siding and icehouse in the back with the ice house on the left end. That solves a whole bunch of train meet issues.
Dave,
I'll think about that.
Edit: That track is the bottleneck of the whole thing. I'll see if I can squeeze another track in there and see how it looks. It's not like I don't already have enough track.
Texas Zepher wrote: spidge wrote:Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for. Interesting you would mention that, as I had just read an article on the operation of the Lone Pine. I really don't understand the Lone Pine yard. It seems to be way long on ladder bypass, industrial bypass, and locomotive run around tracks and way short (2) classification tracks in two areas. One might even be a coach yard. Even a picture on the article shows the yard master moving a "road engine" out to pick up a freight but the locomotive is on the industrial bypass track on the front edge of the layout, no where close to a place it could pick up a train and hell-and-gone from the roundhouse. Or has this been re-designed since 1983?I guess I am saying I don't understand how it would help Spacemouse with his yard.
spidge wrote:Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for.
I guess I am saying I don't understand how it would help Spacemouse with his yard.
TZ, I was using it as an example of turning the entire area over and moving the station to the rear of the yard, although he would have to turn the passenger trains one car at a time as Whit did.
At Lonepine the two stub tracks near the station after the main and siding is a coach yard. Then came loco service and what looks like a run around is the caboose track that parelels the ladder. The long track in the middle was the arrival track with a loco escape at the end.The two tracks in the middle are classification tracks, yes only two just as Alturas, remember he did not run long trains. The track in the foreground was used to serve the industries and as a run around. Th etrack just inside that one is the build up track where most trains were assembled, but some were assemble on a classification track.
So upon arrival the loco had a short distance to get to the service tracks but had to pull out onto the drill track and go back to couple to the train for departure. Then the YM would pull the caboose and in two simple moves it was parked. Then he had two moves back to the cars and pulled them to the drill track for sorting. This was a one man operation, but I personally struggled to get the industries serviced. One of the drawbacks of this yard was that the drill track doubled as the arrival/depatrure throught, so the YM had to clear it for any freights.
I hope this helps.
Chip. I hesitate to ask this question because I have clearly forgotten the details constraining your current plan...what else is nearby.
So, I will just ask and you can respond as you see fit; would it make any sense, and could it be seriously entertained, to merely flip your top layout proper, on the right of the stairs, end for end? IOW, yard now on the right, as is, but mirrored, and the Rock Ridge the same, but now at the stairs? Just flip it all, keeping lengths and configurations, like in a mirror, and then mate up the lower levels as needs be? At least this would free up a bunch of the yard edges for your ops there.
spidge wrote: What sidding are you refering to, in front of the station or along the back of the yard? If its allong the yard you will have too many conflicts between the arrival duties and switching duties.Remember the yard sets the pace, period for the entire layout.
What sidding are you refering to, in front of the station or along the back of the yard? If its allong the yard you will have too many conflicts between the arrival duties and switching duties.
Remember the yard sets the pace, period for the entire layout.
I am calling the track opposite the station the siding.
spidge wrote: Chip, I see a puzzle that only the creator may be able to run. I have been working up my yard and have a few questions/thoughts;
Chip, I see a puzzle that only the creator may be able to run. I have been working up my yard and have a few questions/thoughts;
Thanks for your observations. The fact that so many people are not seeing my intentions means that you are probably right. However, I don't think it is that difficult.
Can the yardmaster do all or most tasks without interupting arrival departure or his assistant who will be working the industries?
Right now he can, but after listening to comments there are three additions I can make that take some of the strain off. There are two places double slips will help. I'm not sure if I can get them into the program.
1) The first is at the top of the ladder track. If a train is brought head in on the industrial siding, The engine can escape via the ladder without a switchback move through the industrial area. That lead is the de facto arrival track. It can also then serve as a second lead for the yard assistant, when traffic permits.
2) The second where the engine service track meets with the ladder. It will remove the "s" that now exists.
3) The third would be a custom crossover from the engine track to the industry track servicing the cattle and foundry. This will give the switcher more direct access to the industry tracks and provide a runaround for when doing the runaround in the industrial area is not efficient.
In your diagram where will the trains arrive? I am confused on that as I don't see a pocket for the power to leave from the arrived train.
The train will arrive on the "siding" and either push or pull cars onto the "industrial lead." An power change for a through freight or passenger train is more problematic and I know I need improvements.
Icing refers is a long proccess, how long will they be holding up the sidding?
Frankly I haven't thought about it.
I dissagree with the statement above to try to operate the yard from the end of the penisula, would be frustrating and with all the industries at the back of the yard leaves no room for anybody else to see their train to pull it out. I know there has to be some industries near the yard but can they be put on the wall beside the station and put the icing platform along the wall behind the yard? This way there is no reason for the YM helper to cross toes or elbows with th YM, although there will still be a bottleneck in front of the station.Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for. Whit does it very diferently. He moved the sation, turntable, sevice, caboose, and arrival departure to the back of the yard keeping the yard, industries and drill track in the foreground. The reasoning was that this is where most of the action was. All this at a little above albow level.I raelly think you would like it.
Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for. Whit does it very diferently. He moved the sation, turntable, sevice, caboose, and arrival departure to the back of the yard keeping the yard, industries and drill track in the foreground. The reasoning was that this is where most of the action was. All this at a little above albow level.
I raelly think you would like it.
I've heard of that. Isn't that in "101." I agree the yard cannot be run from the end. I'm going to go with as many hand throws as possible. On ever layout I've operated they are always the easiest to work with and most reliable. End operations won't work with hand throws.
On my layout, service will be a very active place with power changes on every train.
I dissagree with the statement above to try to operate the yard from the end of the penisula, would be frustrating and with all the industries at the back of the yard leaves no room for anybody else to see their train to pull it out. I know there has to be some industries near the yard but can they be put on the wall beside the station and put the icing platform along the wall behind the yard? This way there is no reason for the YM helper to cross toes or elbows with th YM, although there will still be a bottleneck in front of the station.