I was planning on using 1x4 pine for most of the benchwork but I was wondering if I could use 1x3s without sacrificing too much support or stability. Will it make much difference in weight? Most of the scenery will be made of foam insulation and other lightweight materials. I want to be able to lean on the layout without anything breaking or bending. Here is a diagram of the benchwork. A sheet of 1/2" plywood will cover the whole frame. Thanks in advance for any help.
I have used both (and had problems with quality with both) and my benchwork is the David Barrow "domino" approach so no table is longer then 4 feet. It does seem that 1x3s are of furring strip quality in many cases with slightly rounded edges and thus a bit harder to work with in terms of clean flat edges with pine that really holds screws and nails. I think it is more a function of the quality of the pine than whether it is 1x3 or 1x4, at least for my purposes. If I was dealing with 8 or 12 foot lengths maybe 1x4 would have advantages.
Dave Nelson
I use 1x3s and 1/2" plywood with no problems. The longest span is 5' but I really shoot for 4' or less. Here's a couple of pictures while under construction:
It is sturdy enough for me to climb on with no worries and it is on rollers:
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
I switched to 1X3's instead of 1X4's on my latest layout. I used quality 1X3's from Lowes and Home Depot.They are a little more expensive than bulk lumber, but they are straight and perfectly smooth. Don't buy the cheap stuff.
I used the 1X3's becuase I built an around the room shelf layout and didn't want the extra weight.
I use 1x4's for the outer framework, and 1x3's for the cross-rafters. I put the 1x3's even with the bottom of the 1x4's, which gives me about an inch recess to protect the foam inside the outer frame. My layout is 5x12 feet, supported on 2x3 legs. It's also on casters. A year and a half ago, it looked like this:
I don't use any plywood, just foam, so I would not put my weight on the layout table. (Come to think of it, I don't know that I'd put my weight on the table even if I did have plywood on it.) For a layout, though, this has been rock-solid. I can easily push it around on a medium-pile carpet, and even non-glued figures remain standing.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Driline wrote: They are a little more expensive than bulk lumber, but they are straight and perfectly smooth. Don't buy the cheap stuff.
They are a little more expensive than bulk lumber, but they are straight and perfectly smooth. Don't buy the cheap stuff.
Here here! I learned the hard way (several times!). To get straight and smooth boards along with the massive reduction of frustration is worth the extra expense. I have found that finding quality 1x3s can sometimes be very difficult and hense it is sometimes easier to get 1x4s. The next layout (moving soon) will probably see at least some use of benchwork framing made from ripped plywood if I can't find good 1x3s.
You should also consider making the 1x3 or 1x4 from 3/4" quality plywood sheets cut to the appropriate width. You have nice clean straight edges to work with. The 8 ft lengths with no warp or twist. Also, the plywood should give a slight increase in strength over a solid piece of pine. Plywood L-girders need to considered becuase of the difficulty in finding good, straight lumber nowadays. Figure the cost of a sheet of plywood and then figure that 1 sheets will yield 12 nominal 4" wide by 8 foot long strips. Depending on the plywood used, it might be cheaper too.
I would strongly recommend that you refer to the Kalmbach book, "How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork", 2nd. Edition by Linn Westcott. This book has a lot of useful info on building benchwork that will stand the test of time. I would specifically refer you to the table and info. on page 35 where the sizes and lengths of girders and joists are discussed with regard to their installed strength.
Hope this helps,
Bob
Thanks for the great advice everyone. I barrowed the "How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork" book from a friend and read the whole thing. It was a great book but a little advanced for me. I'm just following the benchwork from a project railroad and using common sense. I just got back from Lowe’s with building materials. I have decided to use 1x4s for the outer frame, 1x3s for the stringers, and 2x3s for legs. Tomorrow I'll start construction! (finally).
You might end up thinking that 2x3s for legs are too big. I originally looked at them but went with 2x2s.
jbinkley60 wrote: You might end up thinking that 2x3s for legs are too big. I originally looked at them but went with 2x2s.
As long as it is braced right 2x2s are plenty. I was amazed at how useful Westcott's book is. The examples will lead you right through most normal situations. It isn't all intuitive, but it is good stuff.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
2x2 spruce/pine/fir lumber is perfectly adequate for the legs of most layouts if properly braced as mentioned above. The problem these days is finding good quality, straight 2x2's in any of the home improvement stores, eg., Home Depot or Lowes. It might be easier to find straight 2x3's even if these are overkill for your application. Alternatively you could get some good, straight 2x4's, eg. select grade, let them acclimate in your train room for a while to see if they warp and then rip them down the middle to form two 2x2's which hopefully will remain straight. This of course assumes you have or have access to a table saw to do the rip cuts. This is how I produced the 2x2 legs I used on my last layout and they stayed perfectly straight. This also might turnout to be cheaper than buying 2-2x2's. The key in using any dimensional lumber is to give it time to dry and acclimate in the location where it'll be used to assure it will not warp after it's been installed.
Well, I am an expert, now , having spent a fair part of yesterday building benchwork with my son. Let me say again that Linn Westcott's book is an very useful resource.
We built a 14 foot by 30 inch bench, with a 16 inch upper deck over the back. We used 1x3 and 1x2 pine, cheapest they had at Lowes, and 2x2 pine (we had trouble finding these that were not so bent as to be useless, there weren't many left). The wood comes into Lowes in 6 stick bundles with plastic staps, and we found many of these bundles to be suprisingly straight, compared to what I usually see when it has been laying loose. I'm sure it wants to bend, but I think that it will be discourages from doing so once it is in position. We made 14 foot long L girders using 1x3 web and 1x2 flange, we staggered the joint, although the book showed just using a splice plate. It wasn't that hard to do it our way, and it makes me feel better, anyway. I was pleased by the feel of the girder, especially for its weight. The 2x2 legs braced as shown in the book made the structure very solid, and the four legs are plenty. I'm not going to climb on top of this thing, but I am not convinced I couldn't.
The things that pleased me most: The construction of the girders went well. Small bends in wood get straighted just by building the girder. The girders just don't flex vertically. They are pretty rubbery horizontally, but that will decrease as joists are added. It was pretty quick, straightforward, and didn't require any unusual tools. We did use two drill, one to predrill and one to set screws. Predrilling might not be 100% necessary, but with the inclination of the 1x2s to split, and going into the side of wood that is a short 3/4 wide, it seemed prudent.
Not we just have to make the rest, two wall mounted sections and another table to link with the first.....
I'm not a structural engineer, but I'd not skip using a splice plate on the 1x3 web of your 14-foot-long L girder unless the girder is supported by legs on either side of the splice. In other words don't put the splice point, as you built it, in the middle of a span. Without the splice plate at the splice in the web component, the only thing that's keeping the splice joint from separating is the 1x2 flange. If a force is applied to the top of the flange above the splice in the 1x3 web in a downward direction, the girder will potentially break at that point if it is in the middle of a span. Again, refer to the Westcott book for specifics.
RFinch wrote: I'm not a structural engineer, but I'd not skip using a splice plate on the 1x3 web of your 14-foot-long L girder unless the girder is supported by legs on either side of the splice. In other words don't put the splice point, as you built it, in the middle of a span. Without the splice plate at the splice in the web component, the only thing that's keeping the splice joint from separating is the 1x2 flange. If a force is applied to the top of the flange above the splice in the 1x3 web in a downward direction, the girder will potentially break at that point if it is in the middle of a span. Again, refer to the Westcott book for specifics. Bob
I wasn't clear. I hate when that happens. Staggering the joint was in addition to the splice plate, not instead of. I'd never think of leaving that out. We glued them on and used plenty of screws as well. Thanks for making that point so that someone else doesn't make that mistake.
I think I am going to use 1x3 for the rail and 1x2 for the flange on my l-girders, too. I think that will be plenty strong for my little proposed layout. I plan to use birch, they are real straight and finished nice and square at our local home center. They also have firring strips, but they have rounded corners and are much too warped for my liking. I will probably use 1x3 for the joists, too. My question is how far apart to put the joists. In our floor and walls, they are 16" centers, but I think that is a bit much. What has anybody else used for their centers for joists? My sub-roadbed will probably be 3/4" plywood, and I'm going to be building in N-Scale....
Thanks for your input.
FT
Yep, I figured I'd do that, they won't have to be very big, but it will probably keep the wood intact. What do you recommend for spacing on the joists?
Thanks,
I'm thinking I'll use ribbon roadbed on risers attached to the joists, rather than a flat table-top. The scenery base will be foam on top of the joists and stacked up to the right height. Will that change anything? Thanks for your help.
I've read it twice, but there is so much info in it, sometimes I forget where to look. I'll check it out again. Thanks.
To ft-fan:
I think that 3/4" plywood might be overkill for your sub-roadbed, especially for an N scale layout. It depends on the cost differential between 1/2" and 3/4" plywood. I think you might find 4'x8' sheets of 3/4" plywood rather difficult to handle by yourself because of their weight. I model in N scale and in my last layout I used 1/2" plywood with 5 plys as my sub-roadbed with Homasote glued on top. I used "L" girder construction and supported the plywood-Homasote combination on risers on 12" to 16" centers with no problem with sag. One of the advantages of "L" girder construction is that you can easily vary the distance beween joists to provide the support a given situation requires. I am about to start construction on my next N scale layout in which I plan to use B-C 1/2" plywood with either Homasote or extruded foam insulation glued on top.
Thanks for the info Bob. I can't find Homasote anywhere around where I live, I will use a plywood subroadbed and cork on top of that, then the track. I would rather use 1/2" plywood but didn't know if I'd have problems with sagging. One place near me has "handy panels", basically 4x4 sheets of plywood but with a good finish on both sides, in either 3/4" or 1/2". This would make the weight much easier to handle. I also had thought about 2 layers of 3/8" or 7/16" inch with staggered joints. I agree that L-girder is more flexible: I like that you can move the joists somewhat to clear room for turnouts, etc.
Have you tried the Homasote website to see if there is a location near you for the Homasote sheets? I live in the Martinsburg, WV area and know of two Home Depots within 30 minutes of my house that carry 4'x8' sheets of Homasote. Don't count on the floor personnel in Home Depot to know they have it in the store. I found it in one of the stores by looking around in the sheet goods area in spite of the fact that the Home Depot people in the store swore they never heard of it. It's used for sound proofing in construction so it shouldn't be a big problem finding it even if you live in a warmer area of the country, e.g., Florida. You could always use extruded foam insulation glued with non-silicone latex caulk to the plywood base. This has been described by a number of people in this forum who apparently have had great success with it. It might make your trains run a little quieter. Be sure to do a splice plate between the pieces of plywood when you are assembling your sub-roadbed. When I did my layout, I used a scrape piece of the 1/2" plywood to form a splice plate that extended 4"-6" on either side of the joint in the plywood. I then glued it to the underside of the plywood sub-roadbed. Clamp it while the glue sets. If the splice plate is too wide to get clamps to the middle of it, use short wood screws, e.g., 3/4" long to hold the splice plate to the bottom of the sub-roadbed until the glue sets, then you can remove the screws so you don't hit them later in the construction.