10x15 N scale layout plans - Critique - The ongoing saga.........

[jlsmith7017]

PCarrell:
I like your concept. I just tore one down after 12 years that was very similar to this.
A couple of more thoughts/suggestions for your consideration:
* Add a passing track north of the main line of your yard and put the passenger station there. You don't want to block your hotshot Class 1 train from keeping on the schedule. You may also want to add a stub siding to park the sleeper as it waits to be interchanged for its trip to the beach.
* Classification tracks - I agree with the others that these are still needed. If your primary direction of travel out of the yard is to the right, your ladder track should be on this side. Run your engine servicing tracks off of it out to the right filling up the space in the blob.
* Split the branch line off the main line just outside of the yard. Maybe you could make it an extension of your drill track reversing the direction of the turnout at the end so the main branches off to the branchline but you still retain the ability to extend your drill track if needed.
* Don't waste those beautiful Class 1 trains - run the Class 1 around the edge of the layout before ducking under the branchline and into staging so you can enjoy their journey, too. You might need to add a second 1-turn helix under your branchline helix to ease the grade into staging.
* Reverse the direction of your branchline helix so that it emerges along the front of the upper level. This moves your town out to the edge of the layout for easier access. You can also use the real estate within the helix blob to extend the town or add a sizable industry. A hidden loop within the helix here could offer you loads-in/empties out possibilities.

Hope some of this helps.

- Jeff

[SpaceMouse]

Better, but you still need classifaction tracks.

If the local and main both leave the yard on the same track, there is no need for a crossover. It is simply a turnout with one going one way and the other going the other. It will give you more freedom (and room for your yard tracks.)

[pcarrell]

If I do that I'm not sure that I can get the branch over the class 1 as it goes back to staging.

But what about this?

[SpaceMouse]

A thought. What about having the interchange on the main and having all trains including the locals exit via the main, splitting up to the branch outside the yard?

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Okay, still working with the interchange yard. Again I don't know the prototype, but looking at the passennger station area. It makes sense that most of the traffic into this station would be via the mainline. That means a through train, say Boston to Bangor, would be more frequent and simply drop passengers for the less frequent local to run out the branch line. Although it is conceviable that the main line passenger train would pull into the station and back out again to continue, it is more likely that the passenger station would be off the mainline and not off the branch line. Beter yet, it would be between the two so that the passengers would walk between trains.

As an interchange yard you still need the classification tracks. Not all trains will be all or nothing. Some through trains will be partial through and partial way freight. Also outgoing freight from your branch line will go both directions.

Keep going. I once did 14 versions of an interchange track before my wife changed my mind about where the layout was going.

Once again, you're right. And once again, I'm pulling my hair out by the roots!

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, still working with the interchange yard. Again I don't know the prototype, but looking at the passennger station area. It makes sense that most of the traffic into this station would be via the mainline. That means a through train, say Boston to Bangor, would be more frequent and simply drop passengers for the less frequent local to run out the branch line. Although it is conceviable that the main line passenger train would pull into the station and back out again to continue, it is more likely that the passenger station would be off the mainline and not off the branch line. Beter yet, it would be between the two so that the passengers would walk between trains.

As an interchange yard you still need the classification tracks. Not all trains will be all or nothing. Some through trains will be partial through and partial way freight. Also outgoing freight from your branch line will go both directions.

Keep going. I once did 14 versions of an interchange track before my wife changed my mind about where the layout was going.

[pcarrell]

You have all made such great comments and suggestions that it's a bit overwhelming. I appreciate all who've been helping me fine tune this monster.

TZ and Spacemouse,
You guys don't know how much your observations helped.

TZ, You're right, the docks are the end of the line and the interchange is just that. Niether one of those places needs a ton of storage (yard trackage) and so I've adjusted accordingly. As to Belfast having a ferry,...I don't know. I saw that thing you're talking about on the old map, but there's no sign of a way for it to get out to open water. There's no drawbridge marked, and I've been there many times. The water doesn't go inland that far, and according to my Grandmother who's lived there since just after the turn of the century, there's never been water there. That doesn't mean it didn't get filled in between the time of the map and her arrival, but it is curious. I guess it's good that I'm just using that as a loose guide, huh?

Oh, and I haven't forgotten about the quarry idea. I like it. There's an abandoned marble quarry right next to the ocean on Deer Isle, not too far from Belfast. Thats a good enough excuse for me!

Spacemouse,
You nailed it! A train has to block the main at the interchange, and that's a problem! Thanks!

All,

I've made some revisions and here's what I came up with. All areas that were in need of improvements have had those done. Please look these over and see what you think.

Here's the staging area. There's much more flexability now.



OK, now here's the tough one. On the right side of the interchange area are two turnouts with the points facing each other. I don't have a slip switch in my planning software, but this is what I plan to use there. It should make it flow better as well as tighten up the track arrangement to where it should be. I did this so that I could have a through track and not block the main at any time. The prototype used a wye here, and I can't fit that, so I winged it. It still has some minor issues, but it vastly improved I think. What do you say?



OK, now for the dock area. I did some work here and moved a few things around and I think it works better. I now have a freight house, the scales are a run-through (gonna have to figure out how to model that gauntlet track in N scale), and the ferry is closer to where it should be. What do you think of this?



Once again, I appreciate all the help so far, and I look forward to your comments on the redesign. Thanks!

[SpaceMouse]

Let me make sure I understand the concept. You have staging that represents the mainline/rest of the world. The layout is basically a short line or branch line. All running on the layout is point ot point. The first level yard a train is pulled by the class one and always returns to staging, therefore a passenger train would basically make one short jaunt to level 1 and return to staging.

Every freight train from staging is either broken down or returns to staging.

I guess that bothers me. There is not mainline through your first level yard. Everything is either AD or classification, a working yard track. Is that the way it was done in the 30's?

[Texas Zepher]

In general, ignoring the Moosehead stuff.....

The end-of-line yard. I would connect the first yard track to the turnout and make it the arrival/departure track.

With all those nice sweeping curves it seems a good place to wedge in a substantial quarry (good excuse for hopper cars) - marble or limestone could work depending on the geology. Or being an ocean side what about a sand/gravel pit? The blob with the helix is underutilized for scenery.

QUOTE: The premis is this; the staging holds trains for a class 1 RR that comes on to the layout and enters an interchange with a short line RR. It then exits the yard and goes back to staging.

So the cars for the short line are left on the interchange. I presume that is the center track of the first three. This is an intersection only with the short line correct (the track only departs in one way)? All the cars that arrive from the class 1 will either be switched to industries in this town or depart down the short line. There is no classification work to be done. Worst case would be that the Class 1 delivers too many cars to be taken in a single train so in that case there might need to be a few more "interchange" tracks.

Also since the main and short line depart in the same direction, it seems a bit strange to have the storage tracks in a "switchback" orientation. Eliminate them and extend all three of the other tracks around the corner to the left of the turntable.

Perhaps the switchback area could be used for more industries. To create more traffic coming up from the Class 1.

Finally, why two places the staging areas widen out? I think I would make about four staging tracks on the furthest to the bottom track. Make them really long going around the corner on the lower right. Maybe a few crossovers mid way.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by railroadyoshi
Is there any specific location in Maine that you're thinking of?

Mine is a freelance RR based loosely on the Belfast & Moosehead Lake RR and it's connection at Burnham Jct. with the Maine Central RR.

... The docks area loosely resembles Belfast, Maine, though they didn't have a car float.

Are you sure about that? There is a map from 1875 that has a track extending out over the water on a switchback right by the turntable. It says "Car Ho" or "Car Ha" on it. A float is the only think I could think of.

QUOTE: Original posted by spidgeI like the idea of a team track. They creats differing amounts of traffic and car types. You could also do a fair size freight house with multiple track. This would create many loads in and out in strings of cars rather than one at a time.

A warf is a sort of team track only for ships rather than wagons.

QUOTE: original posted by pcarrell
BTW, the freight house is good, but where to put it? Other side of the tracks from the float? Between the passenger station and the roundhouse?

Take out one of the yard tracks. In Belfast the freight station was wedged between the passenger station tracks and the warf tracks. They did not have a "yard" there.

QUOTE: posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: posted by spidgeQUOTE: 4. Remember the more industries you add to the yard the more they may get behind and not be able to keep up with the mainline. The car float and a few other industrie is probably max for a yard, and you dont have space for two operators there.

You have a point there. The docks can be quite busy.

I disagree. This is a short-line. This is an end-of-line location. Arriving trains distribute the cars it brings to the industries. Departing trains assemble the cars from the industries and that is it. No need to classify the cars or anything. One arrival/departure track, or at most one arrival and one departure track period. In fact depending on how free lance you are being I would take out some of the Belfast yard and add more industries or a second 'warf' track.

[spidge]

From what I have seen in pictures is the freight house was not too far away from other major RR buildings, so I would lean towards between the engine facility and station.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spidge

Philip, I like the idea of a team track. They creats differing amounts of traffic and car types. You could also do a fair size freight house with multiple track. This would create many loads in and out in strings of cars rather than one at a time.
I do like the idea of fooling the viewer into the short line apearing to run away from the Class 1 RR as it established the purpose of the line. When I wrote concerning all that track for the staging I just like to see as much of the trains when they run as possible. What if you left it as is but could see some of the trackage leading up to the yard? Could be considered a third level but only deap enough,say 10", to view one track.

I did do that to some extent. as trains exit or enter the yard they must wrap around the outside of the blob that goes into the center of the room, so you do get to see them stretch out there. I couldn't figure out how to make the oter side of the yard do the same thing, so I just kind of wrote it off. Any ideas (since I'll be redoing that interchange area anyways)?

BTW, the freight house is good, but where to put it? Other side of the tracks from the float? Between the passenger station and the roundhouse?

[spidge]

Philip, I like the idea of a team track. They creats differing amounts of traffic and car types. You could also do a fair size freight house with multiple track. This would create many loads in and out in strings of cars rather than one at a time.
I do like the idea of fooling the viewer into the short line apearing to run away from the Class 1 RR as it established the purpose of the line. When I wrote concerning all that track for the staging I just like to see as much of the trains when they run as possible. What if you left it as is but could see some of the trackage leading up to the yard? Could be considered a third level but only deap enough,say 10", to view one track.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nucat78

I did a quick Google image search and found a good pic of a gantlet arrangement. No idea why it's titled Cape Canaveral:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/8829/Spring99/HBR_scale.jpg

That's the arrangement that the MR article was modeling.

This one is from China, but they talk about in-motion scales with pics. The pics are a little small though there is a cool schematic

http://www.huoan.com/english/product/index.htm

And I'll keep looking for the article.

That is a most interesting track arrangement. I've seen a gauntlet track before, but I hadn't thought of one for a scale. You could definately do a "through" arrangement with that setup. You'd have to hand spike the rails though, and I'm not sure I'm up for that in N scale. I don't know though, it might be worth learning for a showpiece like that!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spidge

I like your goals for stagering the busy spots to keep operators from conflicting.
Here are some of my thoughts;

OK, shoot!

QUOTE: 1. The staging looks a bit long for so little running in view. Could you put the interchange on the other side of the room causing more traffic to enter the yard trade some cars and have to be reversed, or have a visible baloon track. They do exist in real life. Colton Ca. has one on the east side as all trains depart eastbound.

I'm not sure how that would work out. I'd have to move the town on top level, or delete it completely, for operator "issues". I'll have to think about this one.

QUOTE: Is it possible to have the class 1 enter the scene on the first level on the oposite side and return to staging naer the yard.

I was thinking on having the ability to enter from both directions. I thought I'd stge "eastbound" in one of the staging areas, and "westbound" in the other. The longer sidings might hold a longer through train, just top keep things interesting.

I didn't extend the visible part of the class 1 any more then I did because I was thinking that it would enhance the feeling that the shortline was moving in a different direction (away from) then the class 1. I don't know, what do you think?

QUOTE: 2. The engine and facilities should be on the same side of the main as the yard so the yard operator does not interfear with the mainline and vise-versa.

BINGO!!! That's whats been bugging me about that station! I should have seen it! Thank's for pointing that out. I see some major changes in the future for that station.

QUOTE: 3.The secondary towns have plenty of switching. What you have will keep the locals quite busy. I am concerned with the town on the upper-level located against the wall away from the operator. Think turnout and track problems and the need for powered turnouts and uncoupling magnets.

I'm going to go with radio controled handheld DCC, so the operator will always be with his train. Also, since it's N scale, all frogs will be powered. Lastly, uncoupling magnets are very high on the list of priorities.

QUOTE: 4. Remember the more industries you add to the yard the more they may get behind and not be able to keep up with the mainline. The car float and a few other industrie is probably max for a yard, and you dont have space for two operators there.

You have a point there. The docks can be quite busy.

You know, a team track might be a doable thing though. Say, between the passenger station and the roundhouse?

QUOTE: Hope this helps and thanks for asking.

IT DID, and thank you for taking the time to look it over and post your thoughts!

[nucat78]

I did a quick Google image search and found a good pic of a gantlet arrangement. No idea why it's titled Cape Canaveral:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/8829/Spring99/HBR_scale.jpg

That's the arrangement that the MR article was modeling.

This one is from China, but they talk about in-motion scales with pics. The pics are a little small though there is a cool schematic

http://www.huoan.com/english/product/index.htm

And I'll keep looking for the article.

[spidge]

I like your goals for stagering the busy spots to keep operators from conflicting.
Here are some of my thoughts;
1. The staging looks a bit long for so little running in view. Could you put the interchange on the other side of the room causing more traffic to enter the yard trade some cars and have to be reversed, or have a visible baloon track. They do exist in real life. Colton Ca. has one on the east side as all trains depart eastbound.Is it possible to have the class 1 enter the scene on the first level on the oposite side and return to staging naer the yard.
2. The engine and facilities should be on the same side of the main as the yard so the yard operator does not interfear with the mainline and vise-versa.
3.The secondary towns have plenty of switching. What you have will keep the locals quite busy. I am concerned with the town on the upper-level located against the wall away from the operator. Think turnout and track problems and the need for powered turnouts and uncoupling magnets.
4. Remember the more industries you add to the yard the more they may get behind and not be able to keep up with the mainline. The car float and a few other industrie is probably max for a yard, and you dont have space for two operators there.

Hope this helps and thanks for asking.

[cuyama]

"Build a track scale" by Bill Darnaby
Model Railroader, September 2002 page 68

[nucat78]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by nucat78


Do you want your car scale at the end of a stub yard track? I know you won't really be weighing cars, but how about a double ended siding so the cars can be pulled through the scale? ...

The scales can't handle the weight of a locomotive, so you can't pull one of those across the scale anyways. I think that a double ended scale would need two loco's to operate it, or, one would have to do a run-around, and that might be more complex of a manuver then just having it be a stub end deal.

I haven't seen any double ended scales. Do you know of one? I'd be interested in seeing that and finding out how that works.

True - you can't run an engine over a scale so you'd have to push or pull the cars through.

There was an article in MR some time ago about building a scale track. It was a through track but had a gantlet track for the scale. It also had plans for a small scalehouse. I think the emphasis was more on handlaying the gantlet track. I'll see if I can find the reference and post it here. (It might have been in RMC in an article on the Sandersville RR for weighing kaolin cars, but I'm pretty sure it was in MR.)

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nucat78

Very nice!

Do you want your car scale at the end of a stub yard track? I know you won't really be weighing cars, but how about a double ended siding so the cars can be pulled through the scale? A scale on the end of a stub will add some operational complexity though if that's the goal.

Just a thought.

The scales can't handle the weight of a locomotive, so you can't pull one of those across the scale anyways. I think that a double ended scale would need two loco's to operate it, or, one would have to do a run-around, and that might be more complex of a manuver then just having it be a stub end deal.

I haven't seen any double ended scales. Do you know of one? I'd be interested in seeing that and finding out how that works.

[nucat78]

Very nice!

Do you want your car scale at the end of a stub yard track? I know you won't really be weighing cars, but how about a double ended siding so the cars can be pulled through the scale? A scale on the end of a stub will add some operational complexity though if that's the goal.

Just a thought.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar

Phillip,

I always found it kinda difficult to judge a layout plan by someone. I guess cause there is always such a personal twist to it. Some people love yard switching, some love industry, others get a kick out of mainline running. Personally, I think your is pretty good. I bet in N-scale those runs on the mainlien would last forever. Also too, would be presentation. That plans will look great to people walking into the room for the first time. Great way to show it off

Thank you for the kind words. Layouts are a kind of a subjective thing, aren't they? You're right too about presentation having a real impact. I was thinking of this as I planned this out. When you walk into the room you immediately see a busy interchange yard. Walk around the corner and you are literally surrounded by RR, but without felling cramped. Each scene is offset from every other so that people traffic shouldn't be to bad. I just wi***he isles could be wider, but I sacrificed them for larger radius curves. I think it's a good tradeoff, don't you?

QUOTE: Only thing I can think of is maybe some more industry, maybe a small district some where to keep you busy, or another operator busy. But that is just me, I enjoy that sorta thing.

I thought about that actually. I was thinking about putting it on the other side of the tracks from the car ferry. What do you think about that?

Most of the prototype was out in the country. The only area that had much industry was the port area.

[canazar]

Phillip,

I always found it kinda difficult to judge a layout plan by someone. I guess cause there is always such a personal twist to it. Some people love yard switching, some love industry, others get a kick out of mainline running. Personally, I think your is pretty good. I bet in N-scale those runs on the mainlien would last forever. Also too, would be presentation. That plans will look great to people walking into the room for the first time. Great way to show it off

Only thing I can think of is maybe some more industry, maybe a small district some where to keep you busy, or another operator busy. But that is just me, I enjoy that sorta thing.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railroadyoshi

Is there any specific location in Maine that you're thinking of?

You may want to take a look at the MEC's Rockland Branch. It ran from the Lower Road Mainline at Brunswick to the ocean at Rockland.

My only thought looking at your plan is whether the carfloat is a little bit squished.

Great plan, far better than I could do.

Thanks!

I'm thinking of something a little further up the line from the Rockland branch (not far though).

Mine is a freelance RR based loosely on the Belfast & Moosehead Lake RR and it's connection at Burnham Jct. with the Maine Central RR.

I couldn't figure out how to get the wye at Burnham Jct. in there, so I had to forgo that feature. The docks area loosely resembles Belfast, Maine, though they didn't have a car float.

Speaking of the car float, you're right, it was sort of an afterthought. I'd like to make it work though so I might have to wiggle it around a bit to make that happen. A curved turnout might be the answer here.

Any other thoughts?

[railroadyoshi]

Is there any specific location in Maine that you're thinking of?

You may want to take a look at the MEC's Rockland Branch. It ran from the Lower Road Mainline at Brunswick to the ocean at Rockland.

My only thought looking at your plan is whether the carfloat is a little bit squished.

Great plan, far better than I could do.

[pcarrell]

Alright, here's the deal. We're moving at the end of the summer. We're having a house built and there will be a 10x15 room for trains. I do N scale, so this is fairily substancial. I took down my 9x9 double decker + staging under that, and am looking to start over.

The door to the new room is in the top left corner of the plans. I've designed another double decker with staging to go under it. The upper two decks will be connected by a helix (24inch radius) in the upper right corner. The staging is kept simple on purpose. The other two levels above are sceniced. All towns are staggered so that operators can move about withoput too much trouble.

OK, think 1930's mid-coast Maine. The premis is this; the staging holds trains for a class 1 RR that comes on to the layout and enters an interchange with a short line RR. It then exits the yard and goes back to staging. The layouts focus is the shortline.

Here is the staging level;

Click to enlarge all pics



Like I said, simple!

The bottom sceniced level has a view block behind the yard to the left that supports the upper deck. This yard may need some work. I'm not 100% sold on it as is. This yard is operated from a position by the door. Where the two tracks converge in the lower left of the plan, one crosses over another as the bottom one heads to staging. Here's this deck;



OK, still with me? Good!

The top deck ends the line at the oceanfront docks. The town at the docks has had several redesigns and I think I've got a decent one here. It includes a dockfront area, yards with a car scale, an engine service facility, a passenger station, and a car ferry. This level is operated from a position over by the car ferry. Here it is;



Now the question is this; How can this plan be improved? I'm wide open to ideas.

Texas Zepher, you and I have worked on a few other peoples layouts and we seem to think along the same lines. What do you think of this?