10x15 N scale layout plans - Critique - The ongoing saga.........

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

More industries. Actually, you have a lot of room for them, but you should think about how they will be located, and how the mains will feed them. The placement of the sidings (leading or trailing point) will determine how a lot of your operations actually work.

I'd like to keep the work of the class 1 to a minimum so it maintains the "out in Podunk, USA" feel. The shortline could use some more work to do though.

QUOTE: Will you actually have some harbor / coastline scenery? The coast of Maine is such a dramatic place. My own Moose Bay Railroad, although free-lanced, takes its inspiration from that coastline. Last month I visited the Treasure Coast model railroad club down in Florida, which has a large area devoted to a harbor and yard, with a double car ferry. The wharf is clearly not Floridian, and probably takes its cues from the transplanted Yankees in the club.

There is NO WAY that I'm not going to model it! It's too good! Docks with barnicles, ships, sea gulls, fishing nets, the whole nine yards!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
So,........let me have it! Whaddya think?

I think it is looking more and more like a NYC / Pennsy interchange rather than a small class 1 meeting a short line. I still contend you don't need any classification and really don't need a drill track. A short line's main doesn't have any traffic to "block" while doing its switching moves. The real Moosehead serviced all what 13 towns without any classification. This layout has only three additional towns.

I think that's why I like the lesser plan of the last two I posted.

QUOTE: The only real complication you have that they didn't is the BM must turn its locomotives.

The MEC was the connecting RR and they didn't turn their loco's there to my knowledge (I could be wrong). The B&ML, on the other hand, turned there every time.

QUOTE: I personally like the one you did on May 23 at 15:17 better.

Gotta give that one the once over again. I've redesigned so many times they're all starting to look the same!

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
So,........let me have it! Whaddya think?

I think it is looking more and more like a NYC / Pennsy interchange rather than a small class 1 meeting a short line. I still contend you don't need any classification and really don't need a drill track. A short line's main doesn't have any traffic to "block" while doing its switching moves. The real Moosehead serviced all what 13 towns without any classification. This layout has only three additional towns.

The only real complication you have that they didn't is the BM must turn its locomotives.

I personally like the one you did on May 23 at 15:17 better.

[MisterBeasley]

More industries. Actually, you have a lot of room for them, but you should think about how they will be located, and how the mains will feed them. The placement of the sidings (leading or trailing point) will determine how a lot of your operations actually work.

Will you actually have some harbor / coastline scenery? The coast of Maine is such a dramatic place. My own Moose Bay Railroad, although free-lanced, takes its inspiration from that coastline. Last month I visited the Treasure Coast model railroad club down in Florida, which has a large area devoted to a harbor and yard, with a double car ferry. The wharf is clearly not Floridian, and probably takes its cues from the transplanted Yankees in the club.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

You are a lot closer, but the way have it layed out is wasting a lot of space and yard size. I'm not sure I can describe what I would do. Can you email the file and I will play with it a little and send it back?

I'll send you the file in the morning. I can't get to it right now.

Thanks for the help.

EDIT:, Which ones do you want?

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017
I use 3rdPlanit and I assume I can save files to post but I've never figured out what was needed to actually get a plan out on the forum. Still seems intimidating.

Very simple to get a .jpg from 3rd PlanIt. From the file menu, select "export'", then "view to file". Then you choose the size of the image. Seems to work best if you choose no dimension larger than 1500 pixels.

[SpaceMouse]

You are a lot closer, but the way have it layed out is wasting a lot of space and yard size. I'm not sure I can describe what I would do. Can you email the file and I will play with it a little and send it back?

[pcarrell]

Well, I think I'm down to the wire. I like two of these interchange areas. The question I have for you is,.........drum roll please..........which one? (Or are they both out to lunch?)

Here they are.

I think I like this one best as it looks a bit more like the prototype.......


However, this one I think will operate better (and isn't that the goal?)......


So,........let me have it! Whaddya think?

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

All right! It really helps to see what you were trying to emulate. I was not familiar with that area. I was viewing the plan as trying to have the first 3 tracks in from the edge as the classification tracks (the unlabled, main, & passenger tracks on your earlier posting) and what is labled as the freight & ice tracks as being the main and passing track, respectively. To me, then, this made the outside (main) track the drill track and the second track in the mainline track. Labeling the tracks helped me see what you were envisioning.

The place is kind of out there. Not too many are familiar with it. I can understand what you guy's were talking about, and I was trying to reconcile that with the prototype. This is one of those cases where the prototype was a bit on the "meager" side and could use a little bolstering for modeling purposes.

QUOTE: I think the basic issue here is that I (and maybe others) were suggesting that you enhance your yard to be more of a classification yard than what the actual prototype is. This location is really more of a junction than a classification yard. So, if you want to keep close to the prototype, ignore my suggestions. However, if you want more of a classification yard, your design could benefit from some tweaking to work more smoothly (but you'll lose a lot of the prototype's flavor).

No, no, no,....this is good stuff! I think what I'm after is kind of an "enhanced" prototype setup. A deicate balance, if you will. I'm finding that through all of these suggestions by everybody. Thank you all!

QUOTE: Your description on how to post track plans is one reason I've never tried it myself - too complicated! I use 3rdPlanit and I assume I can save files to post but I've never figured out what was needed to actually get a plan out on the forum. Still seems intimidating.

- Jeff

It's actually not that bad once you do it a couple of times. I can take a track plan in my RTS software and have it on the web and posted in about a minute and a half now that I'm used to it. The trick is in converting it to a jpeg file. Once you've done that, you're home free! I've never used 3rdPlanit before. You might be able to do a "save as" straight to a jpeg file. If so, just do the "save as", as a jpeg, to a file you can find (or your desktop temporarily), then upload to the web and post. No biggie!

[jlsmith7017]

All right! It really helps to see what you were trying to emulate. I was not familiar with that area. I was viewing the plan as trying to have the first 3 tracks in from the edge as the classification tracks (the unlabled, main, & passenger tracks on your earlier posting) and what is labled as the freight & ice tracks as being the main and passing track, respectively. To me, then, this made the outside (main) track the drill track and the second track in the mainline track. Labeling the tracks helped me see what you were envisioning.

I think the basic issue here is that I (and maybe others) were suggesting that you enhance your yard to be more of a classification yard than what the actual prototype is. This location is really more of a junction than a classification yard. So, if you want to keep close to the prototype, ignore my suggestions. However, if you want more of a classification yard, your design could benefit from some tweaking to work more smoothly (but you'll lose a lot of the prototype's flavor).

Your description on how to post track plans is one reason I've never tried it myself - too complicated! I use 3rdPlanit and I assume I can save files to post but I've never figured out what was needed to actually get a plan out on the forum. Still seems intimidating.

- Jeff

[pcarrell]

Hey! Photobucket's back up!

OK, at the request of many (including some by Email), the branch now exits further down the line. What about this one?



EDIT: Oh wait, maybe this won't work. It can't be switched without fouling the main on the bottom side of the blob. AAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!![banghead][banghead][banghead]

EDIT: Maybe this would work better

[pcarrell]

I had another redesign that I think addresses that, but Photobucket is doing maintinance, so I can't post it yet. I'll get it up on here soon.

That link Chip provided is good. I was using another one (done by our own Joe Fugate) to go along with the prototype diagram I posted in my last post. Here's a link to it; http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/Yards.html . Here's the home page; http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html .

[Anonymous]

pc, it seems to me that you still don't have much for yard classification tracks. Look at the 10 commandmentd of yard design. I'm reading it now. (boy is my yard starting to look bad[:p])

[pcarrell]

Chip,
I haven't looked at the link,....that's next. But I may have solved this thing (or REALLY screwed it up!), see below.

All,
Another redesign of the interchange area, including labels for all tracks and industries, WITH CHANGES, is included below. Am I on the right path now?

For an idea of what I'm trying to do here click on this http://cprr.org/Museum/BMLRR/index.html and go to the bottom of the page and click on the yard design for "Burnham Jct.". I don't know if this direct link will work, but here goes.... http://cprr.org/Museum/BMLRR/BML_Yard_Diagrams/I_BML_Burnham_Junction.html

Here's the latest.......

[SpaceMouse]

I've been seeing what Jeff has pointed out, but didn't know how to broach it directly. I suggested having the branch line diverge from the main outside the yard, but that didn't help. The problem is that your yard is not funtionals. This has to do with the fact that if your yard lead is the center track leaving the yard, it cannot access all the tracks. If you have an A/D track separate from the main, you at most have 2 classification tracks and they are servicing either industries or service facilities.

Don't feel bad, I had a whole slew of people throwing up their hands because I couldn't "get" yard design.

Try this link. The ten commandments of yard design.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

[pcarrell]

Alright Jeff, let me sleep on this tonight. Sounds like you've got some good ideas, but I can't even keep my eyes focused right now.

And I'm using the Atlas RTS 7.0 program to draw the plans, then I "save as" them as a bitmap file (it won't let you save the .ral file to a jpeg there) to "My Pictures". Then in "My Pictures" I right click and select "Edit" and do another "save as" and this time "jpeg" to "My Pictures" again. Then I get on the web and log into my Photobucket account and upload them to the file I want. Then I copy the "IMG" tag under the pic and post it. Piece of cake, right? Only about 20,000 steps involved, but it works.

[jlsmith7017]

Sorry if this is getting confusing - that wasn't what I hoped to accomplish. The issue I see with the current yard configuration is (assuming the main is the outside linealong the turnback blob as Texas Zepher suggests) that to get from staging to the main, your Class 1 train must go through one of the classification tracks. If the second track in from the outside along the turnback blob is considered the main, then either the Class 1 train or your Branchline train runs through the yard on one of the tracks at the bottom of the yard (passing track or main line) and keeps clear of the classification tracks (a good thing). In your May 23 version, the outside track seems best served as the yard drill track as it can access any of the three classification tracks directly. My suggestion was to flip the turnout bringing the outside track (#1) and the second track in (#2) so that #2 (the mainline) runs straight through the turnout and doesn't have to go through the diverging route (that is, make an unnecessary curve). The third track in from the edge of the blob remains the Branchline.

The other issues you still have is that your Branchline can't directly access any of the classification tracks - it has to do a backup movement first - and your engine facilities are on the "wrong" side. Neither are a big issue, especially the placement of the engine facilities. It would just cause you to block both mainline and branchline whenever you did an engine movement. Assuming you'll want to interchange traffic with the Class 1, not having direct access to the classification tracks from the Branchline is more problematic.

One solution could be to flip the yard so that the classification tracks are on the inside of the main and the Branchline comes off the Main after the turnout leading to the classification tracks. The engine facilities track could then come off the top of the ladder into the blob created by the turnback curves of the Mainline and Branchline where it wouldn't interfere with the through traffic.

Hopefully this helps and doesn't confuse the issue further.

BTW, what software are you using to create the track plan and how do you post it for all to see?

- Jeff

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

Actually, no. I was suggesting flipping the turnout at the end of the drill track where it joins the main (assuming that the drill track is the outside loop of track). This would allow your mainline train (running on the second loop in) to run through the turnout on the straight section. The change you made won't allow you to reach all three classification tracks from the drill (outside loop) track without a see-saw action where you could with your previous version.

Tomorrow I'm going to take the one before this last one and number the turnouts and that way you can tell me which one you're talking about.

If I have read and understood all of this properly, I believe the underlying assumption is wrong. The outside loop of track out of Burnham Junction represents the main line of the class 1 railroad (B&M). The inside is the main line of the short line B&MHL. The problem that has been pointed out is because in real life the B&M just went straight through. It did not have to turn its locomotives and return the way it came. .....perhaps two round houses, one for each road???

OK, let me see if I can explain this right. On the end of the peninsula the outside track closest to the edge is the main for the class 1 (I think it was MEC at Burnham Jct.). The next track in is the siding that the class 1 uses to switch the interchange. The inside track (3rd track in) is the branchline heading off into the sunset. Only the branchline trains get turned here. The mainline trains stop, switch, and move on down the tracks. Thats how I envisioned it. If you look at the staging level you see that the staging tracks end right where the middle decks class 1 tracks pick up. The class 1 RR can pass from east to west, or vise-versa, without even slowing down if you don't want them to.

Does that make any sense? Or am I mixing this up further?

Here's the staging level....


And here's the middle one.....


Lay the one on top of the other and you get the whole picture. The two tracks on the far left of each level that just sort of end out there in nowheresville are actually the connection from the staging level to the middle level.

In the same way, the top level picks up at the top of the helix from the middle level and continues on to the docks.



Man, this is getting confusing for ME, ..........and I designed it! [%-)][wow]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

Actually, no. I was suggesting flipping the turnout at the end of the drill track where it joins the main (assuming that the drill track is the outside loop of track). This would allow your mainline train (running on the second loop in) to run through the turnout on the straight section. The change you made won't allow you to reach all three classification tracks from the drill (outside loop) track without a see-saw action where you could with your previous version.

Tomorrow I'm going to take the one before this last one and number the turnouts and that way you can tell me which one you're talking about.

If I have read and understood all of this properly, I believe the underlying assumption is wrong. The outside loop of track out of Burnham Junction represents the main line of the class 1 railroad (B&M). The inside is the main line of the short line B&MHL. The problem that has been pointed out is because in real life the B&M just went straight through. It did not have to turn its locomotives and return the way it came. .....perhaps two round houses, one for each road???

[pcarrell]

Thanks!

And BTW, WELCOME to the forum, and welcome back to the hobby!

[Anonymous]

SURE!!! no problem, like I said though, I'm actually just getting back into model RR'ing..i've been away from it for a loong time(10yrs.) soooo,lol i need to try and dig up those pics..but, they should really help, Take cares...

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dracoslayer360

If this helps at all, as soon as I can find them,I have pictures that I can post up here for the B&ML RR. I just happen To live in Belfast (for the last 12 yrs) also, worked for the Yard, and I have plenty of pics of the (small) yard,turntable and of the switchers and cars..Let me know if any of this helps..

Hey! I've got a ton of family up there! I spent my summers growing up there. What's left of the B&ML is just a shadow of it's former self, huh? Is there anything but some of the buildings left anymore? I haven't been up there in a while. I heard they took the turntable out last summer. Such a shame!

Any pics you could get would be FANTASTIC!!! Especially the track areas and the older buildings down by the waterfront. And was there a bridge up by the head of the tide (on the way towards City Point)? I thought there was, but I can't seem to find any pics.

Anyways, thanks for the offer. I know I can use the help. I've got old newspapers dating back to the 1920's (THANKS GRANDMA!!!) and so anything that I can throw onto that stockpile of knowledge would be great!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

Actually, no. I was suggesting flipping the turnout at the end of the drill track where it joins the main (assuming that the drill track is the outside loop of track). This would allow your mainline train (running on the second loop in) to run through the turnout on the straight section. The change you made won't allow you to reach all three classification tracks from the drill (outside loop) track without a see-saw action where you could with your previous version.

I hope this isn't too confusing of an explanation.

- Jeff

I saved the other one, so no problem going back.

I'm still getting the hang of how these yard tracks work. I've got most of it, but there's still some grey areas, and you're in one of them.

Tomorrow I'm going to take the one before this last one and number the turnouts and that way you can tell me which one you're talking about (and then maybe I'll get the "big picture").

[Anonymous]

If this helps at all, as soon as I can find them,I have pictures that I can post up here for the B&ML RR. I just happen To live in Belfast (for the last 12 yrs) also, worked for the Yard, and I have plenty of pics of the (small) yard,roundhouse and of the switchers and cars..Let me know if any of this helps..

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by railroadyoshi

Is there any specific location in Maine that you're thinking of?

You may want to take a look at the MEC's Rockland Branch. It ran from the Lower Road Mainline at Brunswick to the ocean at Rockland.

My only thought looking at your plan is whether the carfloat is a little bit squished.

Great plan, far better than I could do.

Thanks!

I'm thinking of something a little further up the line from the Rockland branch (not far though).

Mine is a freelance RR based loosely on the Belfast & Moosehead Lake RR and it's connection at Burnham Jct. with the Maine Central RR.

I couldn't figure out how to get the wye at Burnham Jct. in there, so I had to forgo that feature. The docks area loosely resembles Belfast, Maine, though they didn't have a car float.

Speaking of the car float, you're right, it was sort of an afterthought. I'd like to make it work though so I might have to wiggle it around a bit to make that happen. A curved turnout might be the answer here.

Any other thoughts?

[jlsmith7017]

Actually, no. I was suggesting flipping the turnout at the end of the drill track where it joins the main (assuming that the drill track is the outside loop of track). This would allow your mainline train (running on the second loop in) to run through the turnout on the straight section. The change you made won't allow you to reach all three classification tracks from the drill (outside loop) track without a see-saw action where you could with your previous version.

I hope this isn't too confusing of an explanation.

- Jeff

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

It is looking good. I assume you'll use the outside mainline track as your yard drill track? If so, you might consider reversing the turnout that connects it to the the main from a left to a right so that the mainline doesn't have to take the diverging route through the turnout.
- Jeff

You mean something like this?


Oh, and BTW, thanks for the help! I liked the idea about reversing the helix direction (as you've probably already noticed). I didn't bring the branch off of the main because I didn't think I could get the altitude I needed to clear it on down the line. I'm still working on an idea (a really good one I think) for "not wasting those class 1 lines".

[jlsmith7017]

It is looking good. I assume you'll use the outside mainline track as your yard drill track? If so, you might consider reversing the turnout that connects it to the the main from a left to a right so that the mainline doesn't have to take the diverging route through the turnout.
- Jeff

[pcarrell]

OK, I've been busy. Thank you for all your suggestions. I've used a little from each of you and I think I'm getting really close,...what do you think?

TZ,
You said something that got me thinking. Why am I trying to reinvent the wheel? Burnham Jct. was laid out just fine, I just can't fit the wye. I could recreate it and change the wye out for a TT. Operationally it's a wash. Take a look at this and see if this doesn't remind you of Burnham Jct., Maine.

Oh, and you were right about the ferry. Matter of fact, in the new redesign I'm still not married to it. I might just loose it altogether and just do dockside trackage.

Also notice that a marble quarry srung up overnight!

One more thing,......I'm thinking 1930's for an era.

Spacemouse,
Your observation about a classification is right on. Isn't it crazy how the mind works? I was looking at the plan and missing it every time.

jlsmith7017,
Your idea about switching the direction of the helix,.....brilliant!

So,.....without further delay......

The new interchange level (Burnham Jct. ?)


And the new top level (Belfast ?)


Alright, you guy's haven't let me down yet! Let me have it! What do ya think?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
But what about this?

It looks very much like the real Burnham Jct. But once again, depending on how freelancy you're going to get it could use some more industries. Often when two railroads are in a town it would not be uncommon for each of them to service an industry or two. In other words there is no reason the Class 1 could not have an industrial track there too (if that is not too far from your prototypical guide). I can't find anything that indicates the BM had any industrial track there, however the 1955 picture sure looks like there is at least one other BM track there.

What time period are you doing. I was thinking that a brick works or fuel supply might work well depending on the era.

The new Bellfast is Great except for the car ferry. I think that now it distracts from the warf. More so if you're looking for some great sea side scenery. To get a barge into that position, the only place another ship could get to the warf area without blocking it would be way down on the far end.