Unheated garage

[Anonymous]

What are your thoughts on this? Is it possible to build a reliable layout in an unheated garage in the midwestern USA, where temperatures range from the upper 90's fahrenheit in summer to below zero in winter? I've seen a modular club layout stored in such a garage in this climate. Whaddaya think?

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

Sure but yo have to have tons of gaps and you cannot solder any joints.

[Anonymous]

I have one, I use a small portable oil filled electric heater in the winter, and installed a window and an AC unit this spring. I only use the heater or AC when I am in the garage so the temperatures do fluctuate quite a bit. My wife still insists on using her half of the garage especially in the winter so the ice and snow does get on the floor but I have had no problems with oxidation or much in the way of any thermal expansion or contraction…yet.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. I really appreciate knowing a layout can be built in a room with ice and snow on the floor, and I am really grateful to know you should not solder any joints. I was dreading all that joint work with the hot solder, anyway. With 36 inch minimum curves in HO, no joint solder may not be much of a problem. I guess I could even go to 48 inch minimum in a 22 by 22 foot space. I also like the idea of putting AC in the window, but the garage has automobile doors on each end, so summer ventilation is pretty good. Thanks again.[:)]

[Leon Silverman]

Standard garage construction is internally exposed 2x4's or 2x6's with no insulation. If this is your case, adding insulation will significantly reduce the temperature swings. I have an insulated garage and I run the AC down to 68 degrees when I am working in there (I sweat easily). I went in there to retrieve a broom after the the room had been sealed for about ten days and it still felt cool.

[Anonymous]

Thanks also to you, Leon. Trains are priority now over air conditioning, but the insulation sounds great. It's pretty cheap stuff, as I recall, and with two big doors you can't insulate, basically that leaves only about 50 feet of wall for me to cover. Cheap paneling over the studs should make it pretty nice looking. Thanks for the great idea. This forum is fantasically helpful on any subject.

[claycts]

Only a couple of bucks but foam insulation flued to th panels of the garage door helps a bunch. My show car garage has that and to keep th temp at 72 365 days a year for %35.00 per month avg in S.C.

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by geoeisele

What are your thoughts on this? Is it possible to build a reliable layout in an unheated garage in the midwestern USA, where temperatures range from the upper 90's fahrenheit in summer to below zero in winter? I've seen a modular club layout stored in such a garage in this climate. Whaddaya think?

For get it!

The question is NOT whether the layout materials can survive the environment. The question is whether or not you will be willing to work on the layout in that environment. The Old Dog would suggest taking steps to improve the environment before starting the layout. The layout is unlikily to get done unless you have an environment where you can enjoy working on it and operating it.

Have fun

[bogp40]

If you don't mind the conditions and it is the only available space, why not. I and not generally in favor of the full foam and roadbed/ track caulked in place method of construction, but this would probably be the most stable for the temperature/ humidity swings that the layout will experience. There has been many topics on this forum regarding various options and methods to build the benchwork, plywood and glue down foam, risers, set roadbed and track. Give it some thought, come up with a trackplan and let us on the forum help out if needed.
Your other option for construction is to use spline. Masonite splines would be the most stable.
Bob K.

[FCnota]

Buy some extra foam and glue it to the insides of your garage doors. It will make a huge difference, and since you are doing the walls anyway, not that much work. It works grest in Chicago..

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

Lowes sells a kit for insulating doors for both 8' doors and 16' doors
you just cut them to fit and slip into the freamwork. I didi ti in a couple of hours.

[Anonymous]

Wow! I never thought I'd get so many suggestions, and they're all really good. Thanks again to everyone. Never thought about the door insulation. I guess that metal door gives off and lets in a lot of heat or cold, huh? I don't plan to spend a fortune on this room, and these things will really help. Expalacedog you are right. I would not plan on using the layout probably betwen mid November and mid March unless major heating and cooling work was done. That's a big down side, but the big up side is the space. I have a very small house. Anyway, thanks again y'all.

[Anonymous]

Insulation and ventilation are key to keeping the temperature and humidty level swings to a minimum. Keep in mind you want comfort while occupying the space but when your not you want to control the humidty to keep things from corroding. Lowes and Home Depot sell natural gas and propane heaters at a reasonable price especially at the end of the heating season and window units are pretty cheap also, so don't skimp on comfort control. I installed a propane heating system along with central air, I use a programmable thermostat to get some energy management and never had any problems. Can't keep progress moving forward if your freezing or sweating to death, good luck!!!

Dave

[claycts]

I put a FALSE wall inside our garage behind the garage door. In engilsh I built a wall and let the garage door stay. If I went back to a garage to sell the house down came the wall. But it did solve my heat a cool problems. Heck on one side I put the A/C in the false wall. Open the garage door from outside and turn on the A/C, in winter Close the garage door, no air leak. I used 2x4, OSB and R13 insulation. I put the A/C UNDER the height of the table and built a deflector out of tin to route the A/C into the room.

[ham99]

I have a fiberglass garage door, and the foam panels just slip into place by removing the center brace and then replacing it over the panels. However, back in the days when I had my layout in the garage, I raised the door and installed a temporary wall in the doorway. A half dozen 2x4 studs, two sheets of exterior siding, insulation,, and two sheets of cheap panelling for the inside was all it took. When I moved to layout to the new basement [under a new 24'x24' addition], I just removed the temporary wall -- hald in place by about a dozen double-headed nails -- and lowered the garage door. Everything was back to normal.

[Anonymous]

I showed the last two posts to my wife, and she thought a new wall inside the door area would be a "cool" idea, no pun intended. So, there's hope here. Thanks for yet more great suggestions. Of course, that new wall would help in winter, too. I'll have to think about this a while longer, but not too much longer. With big automobile doors at each end, this could get complicated. GE

[Train 284]

I would, I know what it is like back there in the summer while visiting family, hot and sticky! My uncle said it does get very cold so I would suggest getting one. It probably dosent have to be an indusrial size heater, probably just one of those small portable ones.

[Anonymous]

One more suggestion to the False wall/temp wall,in some const, applications some contractors have put up temp. walls to control the swings in the working enviroments for some relief of really cold weather. so if you just stapled the plastic on theoutside of the STUDS-facing the garage doors it might help with not only wind but act as a moisture barrer. good luck!!

[Anonymous]

I have the same problem, I'm going to put in dry wall and insulate the garage door. I was told to install a gable to allow air to cirulate around the cieling. Install a AC in your window will help also. during the winter months use a heater. We are going to use our garage as a combo trainroom/livingroom.

[JEIERMANN]

A lot of good suggestions regarding the subject. You mentioned avoiding the harshest months but when the bug gets to you to work out there put something on the floor to put a barrier between your shoes and the cement floor. A couple layers of cardboard or some 1 x 6 or 1 x 8 to stand on. It is amazing how much warmer you feel when your feet aren't in direct contact with the cement. I never got around to building a RR in the garage when I lived in Chicago ( before I got wise and moved to sunny southern CA) but I worked on plenty of my kids cars and having something to keep you off the cement whether standing or laying down to get under the car made a big difference.

[jwar]

You might want to check fire codes in your area if your considering cheep wood paneling. In some areas no less the 5/8 or 3/4 drywall is the code covering the inner wall of a garage to an inside room. Account of the stuff we store in garages can become fire hazards.

The above suggestions of insulating the inside of the garage door, vinal garage door seals, installing the best R value as possable, and perhaps converijng the cieling and installing insulation. The key thing being the resale value due to eye apeal of your home.

Temp hit 113 this week and glad I did the above. John

[Anonymous]

I live in Ohio and tried this for about 5 years. Too hot in July and Aug (sweating on the scenery) , too cold Jan to Mar (diluted glue freezes before it sets). Cement floor hurts knees and legs. Dust and dirt can be REALLY bad. Garage doors let in dust, dirt, leaves, etc. Mosquitos and horseflys attack you in season! Long rail runs kink after a few years of expanding and contracting.

I moved to my unheated porch, with carpet and windows. This was better to work on, but my wife recently ended my lease! I'm now back in the garage, but I built a floor, added carpet and lighting and soon walls and ceiling to keep out dust and heat/cool easier. Makes a BIG difference. Also, you can work on structures in the house during the worst months. I built a grain elevator scene over the winter, then dropped it in place on the layout.

I use Foam for subroadbed on a grid benchwork so it doesn't warp. This has worked GREAT compared to my plywood and homosote layout which warped after the first couple of years. I solder curves, but cut gaps in straight-aways and on REALLY long curves. This has stopped the kinking from expansion. Multiple small gaps seem better, as long rails will pull a single gap so far apart that the wheels will get caught.

I use DCC and haven't had a problem with electronics so far. BUT, repeatedly heating and cooling the area causes a LOT of condensation. This worries me, and a home inspector told me NOT to insulate the walls if I was going to do this, because moisture would get trapped and eventually damage the walls. He said if I insulated I should heat/cool it all the time, not just when working on the layout. Don't know if this is true, because I took his advice. I heat the room with a wood burning stove, but I think one of those industrial kerosene heaters would be better. Takes to long to heat with the stove.

Best of luck to you. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one trying to build my dream layout in a midwestern garage!!

[Anonymous]

Thanks again, everybody who's answered. I'm encuraged and discouraged by all your posts. This is going to involve a lot of moola I don't have for hobby fun. I keep imagining my five year old grandson's face (yeah, he's already a train nut with GeoTrax, courtesy of his dad who was infected by me!) and I know it would be worth the work, though. All these suggestions are outstanding. Yeah, JEIERMANN, those big rolls of used carpet I acquired will come in handy. Your doggies can get mighty tired on concrete. GE

[Anonymous]

Yep, I used carpeting torn out of my old business when they re-carpeted. No pad or anything, but it REALLY helped. The floor I have was actually built to be a dojo floor, and cost me about $400. It's 2x4's with plywood on top and then varnished. But originally I just had carpet and that was a 100% improvement over concrete.

If it's for your grandson, I say definitely go for it! My son fondly remembers my layout, even though I never completed it and it had little scenery. That's why I'm still building. He's 10, and wants to take our layouts to the shows at the local shopping malls. One other thing. My current layout is built in 18" x 6 foot sections. They are light, and I can take them inside to work on things when it's cold, then bring them back out. This makes the layout portable too. MR has had lots of articles about dominoes, LDEs and building a layout this way. Maybe it would work for you.

[Leon Silverman]

Jwar:
The thickest available drywall in South Jersey is 5/8". This is the firecheck rated thickness (Red border versis green border). Assuming you could purchase 3/4" drywall, a 4 x 8 sheet would weigh 100.8 pounds, making it extremely difficult to handle for most people. I had to use the 5/8" Firecheck drywall in my garage because I was using a propane heater. 3/4" thickness, if absolutely necessary, is probably best achieved by double layering 3/8" thick drywall.
As a point of reference, since I notice most people using foambord insulation attached to the inside of the walls and ceilings, my garage/trainroom is insulated with Dow-Corning (pink) insulating roll that is placed BETWEEN the rafters and uprights. This material is virtually totally free of the itchiness of standard fibreglass insulation that requires skin, breathing, and eye protection. I did not insulate the garage door. I removed it entirely and walled up the opening. Access to the room is through a fire door. Temperature control is achieved by propane heater and window AC.

[Anonymous]

Anteaum, you're right. The kids and grandkids have so much fun with trains, the garage ceiling, door, and wall work will be worth it, and I also like your portability and heating ideas. The kerosene portable heater at a club layout we belonged to in the 1980's gave me powerful headaches, but something must be out there that'll work. I have used nothing but foam on grid for years. It makes roadbed and track laying a joke, because it's so simple and reliable! Thanks again for writing, and good luck to you in your awesome garage!

[LVJJJ]

expalacedog is exactly right, if the room ain't comfortable to be in you'll never work on it. Function before form, make it comfy no matter what it looks like. I see that auto parts stores now sell rubber floor tiles that interlock. They should make it comfortable on the feet and back and keep the moisture from coming up thru the concrete. (altho we don't have that moisture problem here in Las Vegas). Larry in Las Vegas.

[Tilden]

I built one of my layouts in half of a two car garage. While I didn't insulate that garage I did put in a drop ceiling. This alone was a big help with temprature swings (Fresno has 100+ to near freezing). IIt was also a big help in keeping things clean, less dust and all. f your garage ceiling is open to the rafters consider this option.

[dngnrr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by geoeisele

What are your thoughts on this? Is it possible to build a reliable layout in an unheated garage in the midwestern USA, where temperatures range from the upper 90's fahrenheit in summer to below zero in winter? I've seen a modular club layout stored in such a garage in this climate. Whaddaya think?

[Leon Silverman]

Geoeisele:
I have a 13.5 by 23 ft garage with a 36,000 BTU propane torpedoe heater (tube heater with a blower). I usually have to run it only about ten minutes to get the room up to 80 degrees before shutting it off. This is done with all windows and doors shut, so no headaches.
Kersosene heaters create headaches due to the carbon monoxide generated from incomplete combustion. This is evidenced by the distinct oder kerosene heaters give off.