Unheated garage

[Anonymous]

Nicknero, I have only visited, and have not lived in, the high deserts of Idaho and New Mexico, but the air seemed much less humid than it is here in Indiana and much of the midwest. I think I'm hearing from others on this forum that humidity can be really hard on track laid on wooden benchwork. Styrofoam sounds like a good solution. Anyway, you seem to have solved your air temperature problems pretty well so far. Good luck with that AC you're hoping for!

[Anonymous]

try living in the high desert its a bit worse the heat in the summer gets to 120 and in the winter its about 30 degrees we get rain storms and I have no insulation but we have a nice roof and I got me a bedside heater out there and when its hot I wait till night fall to go out there since my mom wont spring to get me AC out there hopefully soon she will or at least a fan but, all my soldered joints are fine and I have no gaps

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jclarke

One more suggestion to the False wall/temp wall,in some const, applications some contractors have put up temp. walls to control the swings in the working enviroments for some relief of really cold weather. so if you just stapled the plastic on theoutside of the STUDS-facing the garage doors it might help with not only wind but act as a moisture barrer. good luck!!

If you add the vapor barrier/ plastic to the outside of the studs, use an unfaced insulation then drywall. Two moisture barriers may cause excess condensation and even mold if done in a very humid enviorment. If it is on a temparary basis no problem. I have found many problems with this in the past. Never in a basement, use the plastic membrane behind drywall or blueboard. The worst cases of mold and mildew were caused by the condensation on the back of the board. Remember, houses, walls attics have to breath, many new homes are tight and minor mods not done properly can cause trouble.
Bob K.

[Anonymous]

That's encouraging, wxtoad. I still want to do something with my HO track. I have a lot of it. I guess an unheated garage railroader just has to live with limited train time. Better than nothing. GE

[Medina1128]

Buy the adjacent condo and give up on the garage. Just use the WHOLE condo!

[wxtoad]

You guys are lucky to own the whole garage. I'm in a condo, and share a two-car garage with the neighbor. There's a partition between the two halves, but it doesn't reach to the roof. Also, they did not build it with ridge vents or end-wall vents, so it gets pretty warm in there. Since I own only half, it's hard to make any significant mods. I can open the garage door and the back door and get a little cross-flow ventilation. This is in New England. I have a 3x9' switching layout there. Mostly homasote roadbed, foamboard scenery base, hand-laid Code 70 rail. Rail joints are all soldered, except for where breaks are necessary, and I have solded power connections on every piece of rail, so that if a rail joint fails, there will still be power. This layout is 30 years old and still runs like a champ.

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by geoeisele

Whoa! This is getting more complicated all the time. I'm beginning to think a little 2 by 4 n scale layout, in the house, might be more manageable. Could stack it in a cabinet arrangement, with two sections clamping together for 2 by 8, and stored one atop the other when not in use. Yikes, I didn't know this garage thing would raise so many concerns, and worse, they're all valid! The garage could easily be too much work and not enough train fun. GE

Why limit yourself to just two section? As you complete one section, start on another. Just define a standard interface between sections, then mix and match them as you please. And if the interface allows a section to do an about face, so much the better.

But note, you are going to need some sort of leg system that will allow the sections to be adjusted in heigth and leveled. Some wood working will still be needed.

Have fun



Have fun

[Anonymous]

Whoa! This is getting more complicated all the time. I'm beginning to think a little 2 by 4 n scale layout, in the house, might be more manageable. Could stack it in a cabinet arrangement, with two sections clamping together for 2 by 8, and stored one atop the other when not in use. Yikes, I didn't know this garage thing would raise so many concerns, and worse, they're all valid! The garage could easily be too much work and not enough train fun. GE

[nobullchitbids]

Most people have addressed the problem of room insulation, although a few have focused on the effects of layout expansion and contraction caused by the temperature and humidity changes. Re the latter, I might point out that some MR articles some time ago on metal "benchwork" opined that use of metal rather than wood goes a long way toward curing the mechanical problems. I think you would have great problems with wood construction, even with the capacity to heat or cool the space when you are in it. The changes in humidity well could do you worse than the temperature changes.

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

I live in Sachse Lipnicky I am in our 2-car garage I insulated the door with the kit. I need to insulate the attic to get it a bit cooler. I am looking at one of those free standing A/C units to keep the room bearable. What road are you modeling?

[Anonymous]

I'm using 1/2 of a double garage in DALLAS TX (100 deg today). Garage has dry wall, but I added
insulation board on west wall & insulated metal garage door. I'm using a portable dehumidifier usually set @ 35%, & a portable A/C (12,000 BTU) running about 20 hours.day. This is holding
temp to slightly less than ambient (- 3 or 4 deg). The purpose is for rail expansion, not comfort.
I cut gaps for 110 F ( assuming 9.1/1,000,000 linear expansion for rail is correct,
ie 9.1 X LENGTH in inches X DELTA TEMP).
If not, I'll have to cut more gaps. I'm nailing flextrack to homosite road bed on 5/8 inch plywood with L-girder frame. I wish I would have gotten better plywood, so I painted Plywood & frame. So far so good on warpage & expansion, since last September.

[Anonymous]

Man, with all this great advice, I'd be hard pressed to mess this up! Thanks again!

[FCnota]

Sorry, should have mentioned this sooner. You can use a 99.9 0/0 efficent heater in a garage but it must be 24 inches off the floor. This type of heater comes in both propane and natural gas versions (again, Home Depot or Menards). Cost depends on size. Also, building the false wall shouldn't be that expensive. The wall is not supporting any weight other than its own. 1/2 drywall should be good enough, even if the garage is attached to the house, because 1/2 drywall has a longer burn through time then your normal garage door. 2x4 construction is more then adquate, and you can use R13 insulation, which is much better then your average insulated garage door. It WILL be worth the work.

[FCnota]

Good idea to stand on something. Try this, Menards and some auto parts store (Murrays in hicago) sell this 1/2 inch thin foam mat that goes together like a puzzle. They are 2x2 feet, and come in a package of 6 or 8 (can't recall). I use them in the workshop and man, do they make a dirrerence! Nothing transfers cold like standing on wet concrete!

[Leon Silverman]

Geoeisele:
I have a 13.5 by 23 ft garage with a 36,000 BTU propane torpedoe heater (tube heater with a blower). I usually have to run it only about ten minutes to get the room up to 80 degrees before shutting it off. This is done with all windows and doors shut, so no headaches.
Kersosene heaters create headaches due to the carbon monoxide generated from incomplete combustion. This is evidenced by the distinct oder kerosene heaters give off.

[dngnrr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by geoeisele

What are your thoughts on this? Is it possible to build a reliable layout in an unheated garage in the midwestern USA, where temperatures range from the upper 90's fahrenheit in summer to below zero in winter? I've seen a modular club layout stored in such a garage in this climate. Whaddaya think?

[Tilden]

I built one of my layouts in half of a two car garage. While I didn't insulate that garage I did put in a drop ceiling. This alone was a big help with temprature swings (Fresno has 100+ to near freezing). IIt was also a big help in keeping things clean, less dust and all. f your garage ceiling is open to the rafters consider this option.

[LVJJJ]

expalacedog is exactly right, if the room ain't comfortable to be in you'll never work on it. Function before form, make it comfy no matter what it looks like. I see that auto parts stores now sell rubber floor tiles that interlock. They should make it comfortable on the feet and back and keep the moisture from coming up thru the concrete. (altho we don't have that moisture problem here in Las Vegas). Larry in Las Vegas.

[Anonymous]

Anteaum, you're right. The kids and grandkids have so much fun with trains, the garage ceiling, door, and wall work will be worth it, and I also like your portability and heating ideas. The kerosene portable heater at a club layout we belonged to in the 1980's gave me powerful headaches, but something must be out there that'll work. I have used nothing but foam on grid for years. It makes roadbed and track laying a joke, because it's so simple and reliable! Thanks again for writing, and good luck to you in your awesome garage!

[Leon Silverman]

Jwar:
The thickest available drywall in South Jersey is 5/8". This is the firecheck rated thickness (Red border versis green border). Assuming you could purchase 3/4" drywall, a 4 x 8 sheet would weigh 100.8 pounds, making it extremely difficult to handle for most people. I had to use the 5/8" Firecheck drywall in my garage because I was using a propane heater. 3/4" thickness, if absolutely necessary, is probably best achieved by double layering 3/8" thick drywall.
As a point of reference, since I notice most people using foambord insulation attached to the inside of the walls and ceilings, my garage/trainroom is insulated with Dow-Corning (pink) insulating roll that is placed BETWEEN the rafters and uprights. This material is virtually totally free of the itchiness of standard fibreglass insulation that requires skin, breathing, and eye protection. I did not insulate the garage door. I removed it entirely and walled up the opening. Access to the room is through a fire door. Temperature control is achieved by propane heater and window AC.

[Anonymous]

Yep, I used carpeting torn out of my old business when they re-carpeted. No pad or anything, but it REALLY helped. The floor I have was actually built to be a dojo floor, and cost me about $400. It's 2x4's with plywood on top and then varnished. But originally I just had carpet and that was a 100% improvement over concrete.

If it's for your grandson, I say definitely go for it! My son fondly remembers my layout, even though I never completed it and it had little scenery. That's why I'm still building. He's 10, and wants to take our layouts to the shows at the local shopping malls. One other thing. My current layout is built in 18" x 6 foot sections. They are light, and I can take them inside to work on things when it's cold, then bring them back out. This makes the layout portable too. MR has had lots of articles about dominoes, LDEs and building a layout this way. Maybe it would work for you.

[Anonymous]

Thanks again, everybody who's answered. I'm encuraged and discouraged by all your posts. This is going to involve a lot of moola I don't have for hobby fun. I keep imagining my five year old grandson's face (yeah, he's already a train nut with GeoTrax, courtesy of his dad who was infected by me!) and I know it would be worth the work, though. All these suggestions are outstanding. Yeah, JEIERMANN, those big rolls of used carpet I acquired will come in handy. Your doggies can get mighty tired on concrete. GE

[Anonymous]

I live in Ohio and tried this for about 5 years. Too hot in July and Aug (sweating on the scenery) , too cold Jan to Mar (diluted glue freezes before it sets). Cement floor hurts knees and legs. Dust and dirt can be REALLY bad. Garage doors let in dust, dirt, leaves, etc. Mosquitos and horseflys attack you in season! Long rail runs kink after a few years of expanding and contracting.

I moved to my unheated porch, with carpet and windows. This was better to work on, but my wife recently ended my lease! I'm now back in the garage, but I built a floor, added carpet and lighting and soon walls and ceiling to keep out dust and heat/cool easier. Makes a BIG difference. Also, you can work on structures in the house during the worst months. I built a grain elevator scene over the winter, then dropped it in place on the layout.

I use Foam for subroadbed on a grid benchwork so it doesn't warp. This has worked GREAT compared to my plywood and homosote layout which warped after the first couple of years. I solder curves, but cut gaps in straight-aways and on REALLY long curves. This has stopped the kinking from expansion. Multiple small gaps seem better, as long rails will pull a single gap so far apart that the wheels will get caught.

I use DCC and haven't had a problem with electronics so far. BUT, repeatedly heating and cooling the area causes a LOT of condensation. This worries me, and a home inspector told me NOT to insulate the walls if I was going to do this, because moisture would get trapped and eventually damage the walls. He said if I insulated I should heat/cool it all the time, not just when working on the layout. Don't know if this is true, because I took his advice. I heat the room with a wood burning stove, but I think one of those industrial kerosene heaters would be better. Takes to long to heat with the stove.

Best of luck to you. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one trying to build my dream layout in a midwestern garage!!

[jwar]

You might want to check fire codes in your area if your considering cheep wood paneling. In some areas no less the 5/8 or 3/4 drywall is the code covering the inner wall of a garage to an inside room. Account of the stuff we store in garages can become fire hazards.

The above suggestions of insulating the inside of the garage door, vinal garage door seals, installing the best R value as possable, and perhaps converijng the cieling and installing insulation. The key thing being the resale value due to eye apeal of your home.

Temp hit 113 this week and glad I did the above. John

[JEIERMANN]

A lot of good suggestions regarding the subject. You mentioned avoiding the harshest months but when the bug gets to you to work out there put something on the floor to put a barrier between your shoes and the cement floor. A couple layers of cardboard or some 1 x 6 or 1 x 8 to stand on. It is amazing how much warmer you feel when your feet aren't in direct contact with the cement. I never got around to building a RR in the garage when I lived in Chicago ( before I got wise and moved to sunny southern CA) but I worked on plenty of my kids cars and having something to keep you off the cement whether standing or laying down to get under the car made a big difference.

[Anonymous]

I have the same problem, I'm going to put in dry wall and insulate the garage door. I was told to install a gable to allow air to cirulate around the cieling. Install a AC in your window will help also. during the winter months use a heater. We are going to use our garage as a combo trainroom/livingroom.

[Anonymous]

One more suggestion to the False wall/temp wall,in some const, applications some contractors have put up temp. walls to control the swings in the working enviroments for some relief of really cold weather. so if you just stapled the plastic on theoutside of the STUDS-facing the garage doors it might help with not only wind but act as a moisture barrer. good luck!!

[Train 284]

I would, I know what it is like back there in the summer while visiting family, hot and sticky! My uncle said it does get very cold so I would suggest getting one. It probably dosent have to be an indusrial size heater, probably just one of those small portable ones.

[Anonymous]

I showed the last two posts to my wife, and she thought a new wall inside the door area would be a "cool" idea, no pun intended. So, there's hope here. Thanks for yet more great suggestions. Of course, that new wall would help in winter, too. I'll have to think about this a while longer, but not too much longer. With big automobile doors at each end, this could get complicated. GE