Carving

[ereimer]

orsonroy makes some great suggestions , combine that with adding some slight curves to the logging branch track . adding some hills that go above and below the track level will allow you you to build a trestle or two , the shay will look great pulling log cars across a trestle !

[selector]

I will defer to Ray, and say that I agree pretty much with all of his suggestions. Once again, Jarrell, you don't need, or want, to be throwing l'il Muffin out with the bath water at this point. You are like a surgeon, and even surgeons hack and slash when the going gets tough.

I'm glad you're okay.

And, my huge compliments on your photography!!!!! [tup] You may be a neophyte here, but you are a master with the camera.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

Thanks for the better pics, Jarrell; now I know what you're trying to design. Thankfully, your basic plan is almost identical to my father's N scale layout on one end, which I designed and built. Here's how I would tackle each situation, as illustrated by your photos:

From left to right:
1) reduce the height of the logging area by one layer of foam.
2) Move the switch closer to the left edge of the layout, near the tree. You could add a second switch for added operations, since logging camps were notoriously cramped & cluttered.
3) add TWO layers of foam between the logging camp and the edge of the mountain. Contouring steeply might seem a bit contrived, but it's usually OK on a layout, where forced perspective and selective compression are important. The 4" of height and whatever trees you add to the area will act as a view break, making that part of the layout feel like an isolated branch.
4) add lots of scrap foam by both tunnel portals, above the lumber company, and in the area of the red screwdriver. This will help alleviate the "pimple" look.


1) move the passing siding closer to the layout edge, on the near main, between the Xuron and tape measure.
2) cut in the switch to the lumber company to the near mainline, about where the upper handle of the Xuron is. Switches don't have to be on passing sidings.
3) with the added space in the back of the layout, realign the back mainline away from the incline and nearer the front main. This will give you more space ajacent to the incline so you can...
4) add more scrap foam between the incline and the front of the layout, extending above the rail head about 2"-4". Carve this ridge with a good RGS photo book handy as a reference. You don't want the ridge to be smooth though. Break it up by having it higher than the trains in some areas, level with them in others, and plunging below in yet other areas. Also look to old Malcom Furlow MR articles and photos for inspiration. The key here is to be able to see the trains (and to get to them if you need to) but not to make the two scenes look like they're one.


This looks good to me, and is exactly how I make foam tunnels.


Don't give up! You designed a tunnel and logging branch into your layout because you wanted them, which is a good enough reason to keep 'em. Your basic design and intents are sound, you just need a bit of practice to get them working smoothly.

Dumb question, but have you visited any local home layouts in your area? Looking at other people's layouts up close always did wonders for me when I ran into building problems. If there's an active NMRA group in your area, you might want to join it just to gain access to lots of home layouts (my local NMRA club has two home layout tours a year, plus open access to three local club layouts. Interfacing with local modelers is the only reason I'm still a member of the NMRA these days)

Ray, you have some good ideas there!
Do you think I can do this:
"4) add more scrap foam between the incline and the front of the layout, extending above the rail head about 2"-4". Carve this ridge with a good RGS photo book handy as a reference. You don't want the ridge to be smooth though. Break it up by having it higher than the trains in some areas, level with them in others, and plunging ..."
and still be able to get to the track for cleaning etc. It's only 2 feet wide in that area so I ought to. If I made this ridge, the one just in front of the incline, on a separate table and then set it in place it oughta be easy enough.
Hmmmm......
Would you try and taper that CLIFF back a little, it sure is steep and I don't know how I'd scenic it except as a sheer rock face. My original intent was to cut it back at an angle about halfway to the tracks even if I had to cut back on the amount of logging equipment and structures.
I like the idea of a couple of pieces of foam up there to act as a visual break.
Let me think all this over and see what I can do. Heck, I can't dance so I may as well build mountains.
Thanks for the suggestions Ray.
Jarrell

[orsonroy]

Thanks for the better pics, Jarrell; now I know what you're trying to design. Thankfully, your basic plan is almost identical to my father's N scale layout on one end, which I designed and built. Here's how I would tackle each situation, as illustrated by your photos:

From left to right:
1) reduce the height of the logging area by one layer of foam.
2) Move the switch closer to the left edge of the layout, near the tree. You could add a second switch for added operations, since logging camps were notoriously cramped & cluttered.
3) add TWO layers of foam between the logging camp and the edge of the mountain. Contouring steeply might seem a bit contrived, but it's usually OK on a layout, where forced perspective and selective compression are important. The 4" of height and whatever trees you add to the area will act as a view break, making that part of the layout feel like an isolated branch.
4) add lots of scrap foam by both tunnel portals, above the lumber company, and in the area of the red screwdriver. This will help alleviate the "pimple" look.


1) move the passing siding closer to the layout edge, on the near main, between the Xuron and tape measure.
2) cut in the switch to the lumber company to the near mainline, about where the upper handle of the Xuron is. Switches don't have to be on passing sidings.
3) with the added space in the back of the layout, realign the back mainline away from the incline and nearer the front main. This will give you more space ajacent to the incline so you can...
4) add more scrap foam between the incline and the front of the layout, extending above the rail head about 2"-4". Carve this ridge with a good RGS photo book handy as a reference. You don't want the ridge to be smooth though. Break it up by having it higher than the trains in some areas, level with them in others, and plunging below in yet other areas. Also look to old Malcom Furlow MR articles and photos for inspiration. The key here is to be able to see the trains (and to get to them if you need to) but not to make the two scenes look like they're one.


This looks good to me, and is exactly how I make foam tunnels.


Don't give up! You designed a tunnel and logging branch into your layout because you wanted them, which is a good enough reason to keep 'em. Your basic design and intents are sound, you just need a bit of practice to get them working smoothly.

Dumb question, but have you visited any local home layouts in your area? Looking at other people's layouts up close always did wonders for me when I ran into building problems. If there's an active NMRA group in your area, you might want to join it just to gain access to lots of home layouts (my local NMRA club has two home layout tours a year, plus open access to three local club layouts. Interfacing with local modelers is the only reason I'm still a member of the NMRA these days)

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Jarrell?

I hope you're not PO'd.

Heck no! Crandell, I'm nearly 62 years old, I stopped getting po'd at things like this about 25 years ago.. [:D]
Hey, I just appreciate the help all you guys have given me! I really can't thank ya'll enough.
I think the thing that really did me in on this mountain thing was that long incline and it was on such a narrow 'ridge', for lack of a better word, that I, with my limited skills, would've never gotten it to look right. A good modeler with experience probably wouldn't have had a problem with it. But, the more I thought about it the more I thought that I was spending far to much time trying to make it work when I should be working on the basics, like track laying, soldering etc.
I'm going to stay on flat land for a while and try to learn this hobby. Since I'm sitting on 2 inches of foam I can go down to make gullys, ditches, creeks and I can go up to make hills and low 'mountains' all the while keeping the track more or less level.
What I really have in the back of my mind is that on the lower end of the dogbone

that maybe one day I'll build a 4x8 foot table and bolt it there making one long 4x12 area. I'd still have access to 3 sides of it. That's where any mountain building would be.
But, I have two major hobbies ... model railroading and photography. I have every piece of studio lighting you can name and do pretty good with it. Things like this..

and this..

another one..

and this..

So one of the reasons I haven't alotted more space to MR is to keep some space open for that.
I appreciate you asking though, and get ready for another ton of questions!
Jarrell

[selector]

Jarrell?

I hope you're not PO'd.

[oleirish]

Looking at the top view makes a dif .Take one layer off ,strighten that last curve peice out and slope the edges down a little,things will work out fine I'll bet,after all its your railroadBoy I wish I had the space you got there![^]
JIM

[oleirish]

Looking at the top view makes a dif .Take one layer off ,strighten that last curve peice out and slope the edges down a little,things will work out fine I'll bet,after all its your railroadBoy I wish I had the space you got there![^]
JIM

[dehusman]

On the down side, by removing the tunnel you have created another sheer vertical surface you have to scenic. Plus remember that a tree is a couple inches thick, a "mature" tree is bigger than that. So if you wan to cover the slope with trees leave at least 4-6 inches for the trees and theat will buy you two rows of trees.

Personally, I would keep the tunnel, maybe put a 1" foam layer on top (or even foam core artists board or stuff Woodland scenics sells, its not that big an area). I think daylighting the tunnel will create more problems than it will solve.

Dave H.

[jacon12]

Guys, for now I've taken the mountain and the incline completely off the layout. I'm back down to flat earth again. I think the mountain itself could have eventually worked ok with the proper 'tapering' AND lowering about 2 inches or so but the incline was giving me fits. PCarrell I had thought of meandering the incline a litte (hadn't thought of putting the mill there though) but the double mainline down on the flat was a problem. It still might have worked IF the meandering ridge had come down between the tracks maybe. Well, there a runaround track there so maybe not.
I'm going to read Rays suggestions a few times and see if I can't work something like that in.
Or maybe I'll just stay on the flat with the tracks and build UP the scenery around it. That is probably the smart thing for a beginner to do and stop trying to build mountains and inclines as though I were a 30 year veteran.. :)
I appreciate everyones advice and suggestions and I'll still be asking a ton of questions. I haven't failed yet, I'm just going to Plan B. Plan A was too advanced for me at this time and I don't have a Plan C.
Jarrell

[pcarrell]

Jarrell,

I just looked at your pic's again and realized that the bulge may not work without doing some revisions on the bottom trackwork also. It may not be worth it.

Or maybe it could be done a little to the right of the picture, I don't know.

[pcarrell]

rayhippard,

It's infinately easier to solve someone else's problems. That one of the things I like best about this forum!

[pcarrell]

You know, It occurs to me that if you are indeed thinking of some revisions that maybe in concert with lowering the hillside a little you could introduce some curves to the incline. That would serve several purposes really.

1) It would eliminate the staight edged drop that draws you eye from one side of the layout to the other. this will make your layout look like several smaller scenes instead of one large one. That will give you the impression of an overall larger railroad.

2) It also would give you the opportunity for a better scenic treatment in that the back leg of the dogbone would be out of site in a tunnel for a short time and it won't look quite so much like a dogbone. You could make a pullout chunk of scenery right out of the middle of the hillside to access the hole in an emergency. Careful scenery would be called for of course, but it could be done. Set up the hole so that it tapers a little as you go in, something like the hole in the top of a pumpkin (bet you never thought that a pumpkin could teach you something about model railroading, did you?).

3) If you bring the center of the grade out towards the front of the table (not all the way mind you) you could maybe slip that sawmill into the bulge.

4) You would ease that cliff effect that is causing you problems right now.

You would basically reuse everything that you have already done, you would only be adding the bulge material and moving the tracks a little.

Just a thought.

[rayhippard]

JARRELL and EVERYONE ELSE,

How's this for a suggestion ? Take off the top 2 layers. No tunnel, but a deep cut
through a good sized hill covered with mature trees ( lots and lots of trees ) ready to harvest. Slope the sides of the " outer " hill ( on the outside of the loop of track ) and also on the " inside " part of the hill ( in the middle of the loop of track ) with a fairly steep angle so you still have a small
flater spot on both outside and inside portions of the overall hill that the railroad made the cut through. You could than still run a track up to the top of the outside hill close to the backdrop and the inside spur track from that could cross over the cut below on some type of a bridge to get to the top of the " inside " hill. This would add a lot of visual interest IMHO and still give you more than one level of operation. I would also suggest that you add on to the left side of the " outer " hill ( as you stand in front like in the picture of you contemplating what to do ) and slope this added part down toward the outside of the layout which would take away from the " drop off the end of the earth look " that we all have to find a way to deal with on our own layouts. Also guys, doesn't it always seem easier to solve someone else's problems instead of our own ? I sometimes
think that an " island " layout has some real scenery advantages over an around the walls layout.

Jarrell, I hope this gives you some food for thought and I would like to see your response to my suggestions. Thanks.

Ray ------ Great Northern fan.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE:

"The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way."
I like that!
Seriously, I'm thinking about going to Plan B, and that is to scrap the whole idea of the mountain, the tunnel, the incline. It is difficult to put 3 tracks in a 24 inch wide space (narrow part of the dogbone) and have one of them on such a long incline and make it look right. I know it wouldn't be as diffucult for someone with years of experience (heck, they probably know better in the first place!), but I don't have that luxury. Maybe I shouldn't think on such a grandiose scale the first time out of the gate, huh!
Jarrell

I went through a similar evolution of thought. I realized that if I was going to have a logging layout, then a significant portion of the layout had to be devoded to the loggin operation. I also realized how much space a grade consumes. That being said, I cannot picture ever making a flat layout. (So don't throw away your risers.) And don't throw out a the idea of having a grandiose layout.

I'm going to do what Jetrock does to me everytime I start on a new plan. You can post your answers here.

What are your givens and drutheres?

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

Now Chip, where is the fun in doing it right the first time? I'd be bored in a week and would not have learned any new curse words. The building supply places and the hobby shop wouldn't see me nearly as much because I wouldn't have to redo things. I'm helping the economy. It is my patriotic duty. I wouldn't have met all you nice folks because I wouldn't have a single question to ask.... well, maybe a few.
Software huh... I may look into that..[}:)]
Jarrell

LOL!

Making a plan doesn't make your work mistake free. It justs eliminates a few of the start-over ones. You'll have plenty of mistakes left over. That's the joy of this hobby.

Q: What's the difference between an Mast Modeler and an amateur?

A: The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way.

"The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way."
I like that!
Seriously, I'm thinking about going to Plan B, and that is to scrap the whole idea of the mountain, the tunnel, the incline. It is difficult to put 3 tracks in a 24 inch wide space (narrow part of the dogbone) and have one of them on such a long incline and make it look right. I know it wouldn't be as diffucult for someone with years of experience (heck, they probably know better in the first place!), but I don't have that luxury. Maybe I shouldn't think on such a grandiose scale the first time out of the gate, huh!
Jarrell

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

Now Chip, where is the fun in doing it right the first time? I'd be bored in a week and would not have learned any new curse words. The building supply places and the hobby shop wouldn't see me nearly as much because I wouldn't have to redo things. I'm helping the economy. It is my patriotic duty. I wouldn't have met all you nice folks because I wouldn't have a single question to ask.... well, maybe a few.
Software huh... I may look into that..[}:)]
Jarrell

LOL!

Making a plan doesn't make your work mistake free. It justs eliminates a few of the start-over ones. You'll have plenty of mistakes left over. That's the joy of this hobby.

Q: What's the difference between an Mast Modeler and an amateur?

A: The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way.

[selector]

Okay, I see it better now. Thx for the new view. I would agree that you give yourself a lot more leeway by eliminating the one layer of foam up top. I also stand by my suggestion earlier that you commence your first bend earlier/maybe tighter, up top, so that you run a somewhat straighter course to whatever is going to be up there. You will then have twice as much room toward the end of the layout to do with what you wish...although continuing the slope a bit would help with the illusion and reality of the setting. Don''t sweat the tight curves, 'cuz the l'il Beastie gets to cruise that line, not your big locos.

So, you might leave the one layer of foam over your left-most portal, and remove the second, and go on to adjust the grade (it's okay...this won't hurt a bit!), thereby freeing up a fair chunk of space for a yard, another spur and industry, a village, a lake, whatever, at the bottom area.

Now might be a good time (now being after you've undone what we suggest), to step back and ask if a rethink of the basic design is in order. I still believe that what you have up to the first level of foam, and even up to the modified grade and upper deck is still eminently usable. Some cold, hard thinking about what will be at the base of that modified grade will not be wasted time at this point. However, cold and hard does not preclude creativity and dreaming.

What is your fancy?

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

Now Chip, where is the fun in doing it right the first time? I'd be bored in a week and would not have learned any new curse words. The building supply places and the hobby shop wouldn't see me nearly as much because I wouldn't have to redo things. I'm helping the economy. It is my patriotic duty. I wouldn't have met all you nice folks because I wouldn't have a single question to ask.... well, maybe a few.
Software huh... I may look into that..[}:)]
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

it's great to watch this process before i go through it myself ... thanks for making all the mistakes for me [:D]



hahah , knowing me i'll find some new mistakes of my own once i get started on construction

If I leave out a mistake it is by mistake and will try not to do it again in the future.
[;)]
Jarrell

[jacon12]

Better photos of the area..


the access hole


Jarrell

[SpaceMouse]

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

[ereimer]

it's great to watch this process before i go through it myself ... thanks for making all the mistakes for me [:D]



hahah , knowing me i'll find some new mistakes of my own once i get started on construction

[jacon12]

I may as well bite the bullet and admit that I think Dave is right. I created a monster and there isn't much use in trying to deal with it, not at this point when it would be easiest to change. As all of you have said, the high cliff needs to be tamed down, gentled out and simple geometry tells me that with it at 8 inches high and almost half way out into my 4x4 foot space, making it more believable would take up a good bit of real estate. But, the thing that really had me preturbed was my long grade up to this area, well...not so much the grade but how the heck I was going to scenic it. Now for an experienced modeler this may not be much of a problem, but for a first time layout builder it is going to be a major headache.
You know, you can read all the books in the world but there is no teacher like experience. So, I'm going to take a few days and rethink this area, maybe try reducing the hill to half it's height. That would reduce the length of the grade to only 8 feet (calculating with WS risers) which would free up some space on the other end of the layout that I can use for other ideas. Reducing the height would also give me the advantage, like Selector says of being able to 'scenic' the flat area on up (in the background part of the flat area).
I appreciate your honest opinions and suggestions.
Jarrell

[dehusman]

The part you have shown is the easy part to scenic. The hard part will be the area on the right where you have the grade with a track running parallel and right next to it. That will end up a sheer rock face all the way. That's why you need some slopes on the other end. Have you considered why you need the logging camp so high? Could you lose one or two layers of foam? Less grade, less distance to 'slope' up to.

Dave H.

[oleirish]

Jarrell I agree with Selector need to get rid of the cliff and put a gental slope in.
JIM

[pcarrell]

orsonroy has a point. NO PIMPLE ON A POOL TABLE. Just be sure to add other undulations to the ground on the main level to combat this.

[oleirish]

Jarrell
Ithink the advice here is great,selector has the right idea some what,you need to kill off that sharp cliff,it needs a gentell slope down to the lower section.I agree need to see the airea from the top.
JIM

[pcarrell]

I agree with selector about the hillside coming down to the main level. I also would have to agree that unless the hillside continues on up above the top tracks you run the risk of looking like you are o a plateau out west somewhere. You may be able to hide this with lots of structures at the top of the hill and then maybe behind that some trees that get progressively taller within a compressed space behind the buildings. This way you could give the impression that the ground goes up behind the buildings but you could do it starting at the rooftop level instead of ground level. You would the continue the impression on the backdrop. It would have to be done carefully to pull it off but it just might work.

As for the slope in front of the current hill. I'm not sure of your local that you are modeling but there are steep hills everywhere, so it doesn't need to eat up a lot of real estate to blend it in. I go to the Cumberland Valley a couple of times a year and some of those "hills" are quite steep to walk up. You are tierd when you get to the top, and I'm only 40! And out west,...forget it! There are steep hills everywhere! The idea that selector had about a small camp and a road on the hillside is a good one for adding visual interest. I would keep it small and towards the top though, otherwise you would have little seperation between scenes at the top and scenes at the bottom (unless thats what you want). Just think about where you want the eye to go.

The thought about placing your sawmill on the other end of the layout is a good one. Use ALL of your real estate. By that I don't necessarily mean cover everything with tracks and buildings, but speading things out a little will not only help with people congestion but it will also make the layout "feel" bigger. You won't always be standing in the same place when you are running trains.

Something that might add a little interest (I don't know how easy this would be to do, or if you'd even be intersted) might be to add a switchback to get to the sawmill on the other end. This could be done in a very tight area and might add some operating interest.

And on another post you mentioned something about failing and that everybody was watching. Don't worry, there are so many people here that will not let you down that it is virtually impossible for you to fail. You'd have to almost WANT to fail!

Don't worry, we got your back!

[orsonroy]

If you didn't have the track on top of the mountain, I'd suggest gluing down the first two layers and leaving the upper layers free, to act as a access point to get at derailments in the tunnel. But since that's not really practical...

I suggest NOT making the lower two levels solid, with full sheets of foam. Instead, just stack some foam "pillars" inside the tunnel area to act as supports for the upper 2-3 layers of foam, which should be solid sheets. Make sure the back side of the tunnel area is free of foam (mostly; add a couple of pillars in back) so you can access the inside of the tunnel from the usceniced area of the layout if need be. Glue everything together, and use bamboo skewers plunged deeply through all the layers of foam to act as "rebar" bracing for the foam structure. I'd also extend the lower levels of foam out more (as much as 8"-10") and wedding cake them so when you carve the foam, you get a more gentle slope upwards, instead of the sheer cliff face you've got now. Carve away as usual, and make sure you bite into the base level of foam to eliminate the "pimple on a pool table" effect of the mountain springing out of a completely flat surface.