Carving

[jacon12]

I would like your thoughts on how to proceed with carving my foam 'mountain'..

I think the way to go would be for me to glue all the layers to one another but not glue the entire thing to the foam base, not yet anyway. It would be much easier to work on it with it sitting on a work table than up on the layout. I know I need to keep as much of the top layer as possible for the logging camp and other structures. I have two tracks there, one for loads and one for empties. Any advice or suggestions greatly appreciated.
Jarrell

[pcarrell]

It would be much easier to work on somewhere off the layout. It would make cleanup much easier too. Just make sure to test your progress regularly so you don't go to far.

Keep sending those posts and pics. We're all watching!

[selector]

What is going into the space just past the closest portal? The open space below where your logging camp will sit. Bear with me, because I am going to suggest how to carve and glue depending on your response.

So far, so good, by the way.

Have you elected to keep your top layer or two liftable to retrieve stuff that derails in that tunnel?

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

It would be much easier to work on somewhere off the layout. It would make cleanup much easier too. Just make sure to test your progress regularly so you don't go to far.

Keep sending those posts and pics. We're all watching!

"Keep sending those posts and pics. We're all watching!"
I know! If this fails it'll be in front of God and everybody. But, I'm not sure how you fail at this. Just quit maybe or get mad and bash it to pieces? Naaaay... to expensive.
I'm going to glue and move it, thats gotta be easier.
Thanks,
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

What is going into the space just past the closest portal? The open space below where your logging camp will sit. Bear with me, because I am going to suggest how to carve and glue depending on your response.

So far, so good, by the way.

Have you elected to keep your top layer or two liftable to retrieve stuff that derails in that tunnel?

That's a darned good question Crandell, seeing as how I've changed my mind about what going there about 4 times already.
The original plan was for the sawmill operation to be on the upper level, then finished lumber brought down to a small yard by the mainline. It was to be picked up there and delivered to a retail lumber yard and one other business. Then the more research I did the more I realized I wanted to model the area the logs were cut and put on the cars, so now that will be on the upper level, the logs brought down to a sawmill and my latest plan was for that sawmill to be located down in the area you mentioned. BUT... this is taking up so much of my layout space, I really want more businesses to deliver other types of goods to. I do have the entire other end of the dogbone still open so as for now the sawmill will go in that area.
NOW, whats your suggestion..[:p]
Jarrell

[selector]

Well, you may be dismayed when I suggest that you model the mountain side, or slope, down into that area. That means you will have to form and add some layers on the other side of the close portal, but carve them so that the mountain slopes toward the closer lower track and along towards the approach to the far portal.

That means eating up that chunk of space, but not necessarily all of it. Or, you could make it a steep rocky bluff, or cliff, pretty much as it is. However, I think, based only on the foreshortening of the view, that you may have too little room on that upper deck for much of an operation. Maybe a different, higher, angle shot will convince me otherwise. If you slope that space, you could model a dirt road with switchbacks up to the logging operation. A small log cabin, maybe a horse shed and paddock somewhere up the slope? Don't forget a single power line and some poles? Or was is a steam operation at that time? If steam, how did they get the water to the mill? A pipe line is needed, or a stream nearby? Was it wood fired steam, or coal? See how the thinking goes?

I feel strongly that the area right next to your bench end & backdrop, on the extreme upper left, will look unnatural, or odd, unless you find a way to model the continuation of the mountain slope up that way, with trees, of course. This may be difficult to accomplish with the track configuration as you show it. If you see what I mean, and concede the point, can you make a sharper first turn at the top and bring that line closer to the first 'bluff' edge corner, thus straightening it out a bit? That will free up more space in the corner. Just a thought.

Anyway, I had better shut up before you get into a frenzy and do something drastic.

By the way, I am very pleased about the way you have gone about this. You have benefitted from a lot of experience on this forum, and I feel that you will end up with an excellent layout based on the folks' advice here. Unfortunately, along with that come stops and starts, re-designs, undos, and so one. Not based solely on MY advice, mind you, so don't make any decisions just yet. Others will chime in.

"Steady as she goes."

"Aye, steady."

"Midships."

"Midships."

[orsonroy]

If you didn't have the track on top of the mountain, I'd suggest gluing down the first two layers and leaving the upper layers free, to act as a access point to get at derailments in the tunnel. But since that's not really practical...

I suggest NOT making the lower two levels solid, with full sheets of foam. Instead, just stack some foam "pillars" inside the tunnel area to act as supports for the upper 2-3 layers of foam, which should be solid sheets. Make sure the back side of the tunnel area is free of foam (mostly; add a couple of pillars in back) so you can access the inside of the tunnel from the usceniced area of the layout if need be. Glue everything together, and use bamboo skewers plunged deeply through all the layers of foam to act as "rebar" bracing for the foam structure. I'd also extend the lower levels of foam out more (as much as 8"-10") and wedding cake them so when you carve the foam, you get a more gentle slope upwards, instead of the sheer cliff face you've got now. Carve away as usual, and make sure you bite into the base level of foam to eliminate the "pimple on a pool table" effect of the mountain springing out of a completely flat surface.

[pcarrell]

I agree with selector about the hillside coming down to the main level. I also would have to agree that unless the hillside continues on up above the top tracks you run the risk of looking like you are o a plateau out west somewhere. You may be able to hide this with lots of structures at the top of the hill and then maybe behind that some trees that get progressively taller within a compressed space behind the buildings. This way you could give the impression that the ground goes up behind the buildings but you could do it starting at the rooftop level instead of ground level. You would the continue the impression on the backdrop. It would have to be done carefully to pull it off but it just might work.

As for the slope in front of the current hill. I'm not sure of your local that you are modeling but there are steep hills everywhere, so it doesn't need to eat up a lot of real estate to blend it in. I go to the Cumberland Valley a couple of times a year and some of those "hills" are quite steep to walk up. You are tierd when you get to the top, and I'm only 40! And out west,...forget it! There are steep hills everywhere! The idea that selector had about a small camp and a road on the hillside is a good one for adding visual interest. I would keep it small and towards the top though, otherwise you would have little seperation between scenes at the top and scenes at the bottom (unless thats what you want). Just think about where you want the eye to go.

The thought about placing your sawmill on the other end of the layout is a good one. Use ALL of your real estate. By that I don't necessarily mean cover everything with tracks and buildings, but speading things out a little will not only help with people congestion but it will also make the layout "feel" bigger. You won't always be standing in the same place when you are running trains.

Something that might add a little interest (I don't know how easy this would be to do, or if you'd even be intersted) might be to add a switchback to get to the sawmill on the other end. This could be done in a very tight area and might add some operating interest.

And on another post you mentioned something about failing and that everybody was watching. Don't worry, there are so many people here that will not let you down that it is virtually impossible for you to fail. You'd have to almost WANT to fail!

Don't worry, we got your back!

[oleirish]

Jarrell
Ithink the advice here is great,selector has the right idea some what,you need to kill off that sharp cliff,it needs a gentell slope down to the lower section.I agree need to see the airea from the top.
JIM

[pcarrell]

orsonroy has a point. NO PIMPLE ON A POOL TABLE. Just be sure to add other undulations to the ground on the main level to combat this.

[oleirish]

Jarrell I agree with Selector need to get rid of the cliff and put a gental slope in.
JIM

[dehusman]

The part you have shown is the easy part to scenic. The hard part will be the area on the right where you have the grade with a track running parallel and right next to it. That will end up a sheer rock face all the way. That's why you need some slopes on the other end. Have you considered why you need the logging camp so high? Could you lose one or two layers of foam? Less grade, less distance to 'slope' up to.

Dave H.

[jacon12]

I may as well bite the bullet and admit that I think Dave is right. I created a monster and there isn't much use in trying to deal with it, not at this point when it would be easiest to change. As all of you have said, the high cliff needs to be tamed down, gentled out and simple geometry tells me that with it at 8 inches high and almost half way out into my 4x4 foot space, making it more believable would take up a good bit of real estate. But, the thing that really had me preturbed was my long grade up to this area, well...not so much the grade but how the heck I was going to scenic it. Now for an experienced modeler this may not be much of a problem, but for a first time layout builder it is going to be a major headache.
You know, you can read all the books in the world but there is no teacher like experience. So, I'm going to take a few days and rethink this area, maybe try reducing the hill to half it's height. That would reduce the length of the grade to only 8 feet (calculating with WS risers) which would free up some space on the other end of the layout that I can use for other ideas. Reducing the height would also give me the advantage, like Selector says of being able to 'scenic' the flat area on up (in the background part of the flat area).
I appreciate your honest opinions and suggestions.
Jarrell

[ereimer]

it's great to watch this process before i go through it myself ... thanks for making all the mistakes for me [:D]



hahah , knowing me i'll find some new mistakes of my own once i get started on construction

[SpaceMouse]

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

[jacon12]

Better photos of the area..


the access hole


Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

it's great to watch this process before i go through it myself ... thanks for making all the mistakes for me [:D]



hahah , knowing me i'll find some new mistakes of my own once i get started on construction

If I leave out a mistake it is by mistake and will try not to do it again in the future.
[;)]
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

Now Chip, where is the fun in doing it right the first time? I'd be bored in a week and would not have learned any new curse words. The building supply places and the hobby shop wouldn't see me nearly as much because I wouldn't have to redo things. I'm helping the economy. It is my patriotic duty. I wouldn't have met all you nice folks because I wouldn't have a single question to ask.... well, maybe a few.
Software huh... I may look into that..[}:)]
Jarrell

[selector]

Okay, I see it better now. Thx for the new view. I would agree that you give yourself a lot more leeway by eliminating the one layer of foam up top. I also stand by my suggestion earlier that you commence your first bend earlier/maybe tighter, up top, so that you run a somewhat straighter course to whatever is going to be up there. You will then have twice as much room toward the end of the layout to do with what you wish...although continuing the slope a bit would help with the illusion and reality of the setting. Don''t sweat the tight curves, 'cuz the l'il Beastie gets to cruise that line, not your big locos.

So, you might leave the one layer of foam over your left-most portal, and remove the second, and go on to adjust the grade (it's okay...this won't hurt a bit!), thereby freeing up a fair chunk of space for a yard, another spur and industry, a village, a lake, whatever, at the bottom area.

Now might be a good time (now being after you've undone what we suggest), to step back and ask if a rethink of the basic design is in order. I still believe that what you have up to the first level of foam, and even up to the modified grade and upper deck is still eminently usable. Some cold, hard thinking about what will be at the base of that modified grade will not be wasted time at this point. However, cold and hard does not preclude creativity and dreaming.

What is your fancy?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

Now Chip, where is the fun in doing it right the first time? I'd be bored in a week and would not have learned any new curse words. The building supply places and the hobby shop wouldn't see me nearly as much because I wouldn't have to redo things. I'm helping the economy. It is my patriotic duty. I wouldn't have met all you nice folks because I wouldn't have a single question to ask.... well, maybe a few.
Software huh... I may look into that..[}:)]
Jarrell

LOL!

Making a plan doesn't make your work mistake free. It justs eliminates a few of the start-over ones. You'll have plenty of mistakes left over. That's the joy of this hobby.

Q: What's the difference between an Mast Modeler and an amateur?

A: The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to say the same thing I said about a month ago. make your mistakes in pixels. Get a layout program, bite the bullet and learn it. Then create the layout digitally, you can even run trains across the digital to test your operations. We can still check your progress only we will be checking plans not the physical manifestations.

Now Chip, where is the fun in doing it right the first time? I'd be bored in a week and would not have learned any new curse words. The building supply places and the hobby shop wouldn't see me nearly as much because I wouldn't have to redo things. I'm helping the economy. It is my patriotic duty. I wouldn't have met all you nice folks because I wouldn't have a single question to ask.... well, maybe a few.
Software huh... I may look into that..[}:)]
Jarrell

LOL!

Making a plan doesn't make your work mistake free. It justs eliminates a few of the start-over ones. You'll have plenty of mistakes left over. That's the joy of this hobby.

Q: What's the difference between an Mast Modeler and an amateur?

A: The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way.

"The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way."
I like that!
Seriously, I'm thinking about going to Plan B, and that is to scrap the whole idea of the mountain, the tunnel, the incline. It is difficult to put 3 tracks in a 24 inch wide space (narrow part of the dogbone) and have one of them on such a long incline and make it look right. I know it wouldn't be as diffucult for someone with years of experience (heck, they probably know better in the first place!), but I don't have that luxury. Maybe I shouldn't think on such a grandiose scale the first time out of the gate, huh!
Jarrell

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE:

"The Master Modeler makes his screw-ups look like they were supposed to be that way."
I like that!
Seriously, I'm thinking about going to Plan B, and that is to scrap the whole idea of the mountain, the tunnel, the incline. It is difficult to put 3 tracks in a 24 inch wide space (narrow part of the dogbone) and have one of them on such a long incline and make it look right. I know it wouldn't be as diffucult for someone with years of experience (heck, they probably know better in the first place!), but I don't have that luxury. Maybe I shouldn't think on such a grandiose scale the first time out of the gate, huh!
Jarrell

I went through a similar evolution of thought. I realized that if I was going to have a logging layout, then a significant portion of the layout had to be devoded to the loggin operation. I also realized how much space a grade consumes. That being said, I cannot picture ever making a flat layout. (So don't throw away your risers.) And don't throw out a the idea of having a grandiose layout.

I'm going to do what Jetrock does to me everytime I start on a new plan. You can post your answers here.

What are your givens and drutheres?

[rayhippard]

JARRELL and EVERYONE ELSE,

How's this for a suggestion ? Take off the top 2 layers. No tunnel, but a deep cut
through a good sized hill covered with mature trees ( lots and lots of trees ) ready to harvest. Slope the sides of the " outer " hill ( on the outside of the loop of track ) and also on the " inside " part of the hill ( in the middle of the loop of track ) with a fairly steep angle so you still have a small
flater spot on both outside and inside portions of the overall hill that the railroad made the cut through. You could than still run a track up to the top of the outside hill close to the backdrop and the inside spur track from that could cross over the cut below on some type of a bridge to get to the top of the " inside " hill. This would add a lot of visual interest IMHO and still give you more than one level of operation. I would also suggest that you add on to the left side of the " outer " hill ( as you stand in front like in the picture of you contemplating what to do ) and slope this added part down toward the outside of the layout which would take away from the " drop off the end of the earth look " that we all have to find a way to deal with on our own layouts. Also guys, doesn't it always seem easier to solve someone else's problems instead of our own ? I sometimes
think that an " island " layout has some real scenery advantages over an around the walls layout.

Jarrell, I hope this gives you some food for thought and I would like to see your response to my suggestions. Thanks.

Ray ------ Great Northern fan.

[pcarrell]

You know, It occurs to me that if you are indeed thinking of some revisions that maybe in concert with lowering the hillside a little you could introduce some curves to the incline. That would serve several purposes really.

1) It would eliminate the staight edged drop that draws you eye from one side of the layout to the other. this will make your layout look like several smaller scenes instead of one large one. That will give you the impression of an overall larger railroad.

2) It also would give you the opportunity for a better scenic treatment in that the back leg of the dogbone would be out of site in a tunnel for a short time and it won't look quite so much like a dogbone. You could make a pullout chunk of scenery right out of the middle of the hillside to access the hole in an emergency. Careful scenery would be called for of course, but it could be done. Set up the hole so that it tapers a little as you go in, something like the hole in the top of a pumpkin (bet you never thought that a pumpkin could teach you something about model railroading, did you?).

3) If you bring the center of the grade out towards the front of the table (not all the way mind you) you could maybe slip that sawmill into the bulge.

4) You would ease that cliff effect that is causing you problems right now.

You would basically reuse everything that you have already done, you would only be adding the bulge material and moving the tracks a little.

Just a thought.

[pcarrell]

rayhippard,

It's infinately easier to solve someone else's problems. That one of the things I like best about this forum!

[pcarrell]

Jarrell,

I just looked at your pic's again and realized that the bulge may not work without doing some revisions on the bottom trackwork also. It may not be worth it.

Or maybe it could be done a little to the right of the picture, I don't know.

[jacon12]

Guys, for now I've taken the mountain and the incline completely off the layout. I'm back down to flat earth again. I think the mountain itself could have eventually worked ok with the proper 'tapering' AND lowering about 2 inches or so but the incline was giving me fits. PCarrell I had thought of meandering the incline a litte (hadn't thought of putting the mill there though) but the double mainline down on the flat was a problem. It still might have worked IF the meandering ridge had come down between the tracks maybe. Well, there a runaround track there so maybe not.
I'm going to read Rays suggestions a few times and see if I can't work something like that in.
Or maybe I'll just stay on the flat with the tracks and build UP the scenery around it. That is probably the smart thing for a beginner to do and stop trying to build mountains and inclines as though I were a 30 year veteran.. :)
I appreciate everyones advice and suggestions and I'll still be asking a ton of questions. I haven't failed yet, I'm just going to Plan B. Plan A was too advanced for me at this time and I don't have a Plan C.
Jarrell

[dehusman]

On the down side, by removing the tunnel you have created another sheer vertical surface you have to scenic. Plus remember that a tree is a couple inches thick, a "mature" tree is bigger than that. So if you wan to cover the slope with trees leave at least 4-6 inches for the trees and theat will buy you two rows of trees.

Personally, I would keep the tunnel, maybe put a 1" foam layer on top (or even foam core artists board or stuff Woodland scenics sells, its not that big an area). I think daylighting the tunnel will create more problems than it will solve.

Dave H.

[oleirish]

Looking at the top view makes a dif .Take one layer off ,strighten that last curve peice out and slope the edges down a little,things will work out fine I'll bet,after all its your railroadBoy I wish I had the space you got there![^]
JIM

[oleirish]

Looking at the top view makes a dif .Take one layer off ,strighten that last curve peice out and slope the edges down a little,things will work out fine I'll bet,after all its your railroadBoy I wish I had the space you got there![^]
JIM