Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Tank farm details

1393 views
14 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Tank farm details
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 9:31 AM

I have finally finished the sub-assemblies and am ready to complete my refinery scene.  An area I need some info on are the details of the storage facility.

I have several of these kits:

In the picture it appears that the piping goes through the berm.  If anyone has done that can you share how? 

Also, pictures that I have found of modeled scenes show one pipe going into the tank.  That is also how the Walthers instructions say to set it up.  Wouldn't each tank need at least two pipes - one to fill and the other to empty?

BTW - I have been working on this a long time.  The first thread that I started on this board was on the refinery.  https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/261209.aspx   At that point I had been working on it on and off for 15 years.  

Edit: I don't know why inserting the link to the old thread doesn't work.  Sorry.

Rick

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,212 posts
Posted by tstage on Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:13 AM

MR thread link now clickable:

https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/261209.aspx

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:16 AM

Thanks, Tom.

Rick

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,212 posts
Posted by tstage on Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:19 AM

You're welcome, Rick.

FYI to you and others: The forum software isn't what it used to be.  To create a working link to another thread in the MR forum, add a bracketed "url" and "/url" on each end of the link - minus the quotation marks.

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    March 2011
  • 1,950 posts
Posted by NVSRR on Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:23 AM

The pipe the fills the tank can be reversed to empty it as well.  When I did work on the Philadelphia airport fuel tank farm, the pipes went over the berms.  Which makes sense.  Don't want any path for the contents to find a way through and get free defeating the purpose of the berm.     To do the thru berm,  put the pipe in before scenery work. Cut the pipe to fit snug against the berm.  When the scenery is applied it will hide what small gap is there between berm and pipe

 

shane

A pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel

A realist sees a frieght train

An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space

  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:28 AM

tstage

You're welcome, Rick.

FYI to you and others: The forum software isn't what it used to be.  To create a working link to another thread in the MR forum, add a bracketed "url" and "/url" on each end of the link - minus the quotation marks.

Tom

 

Tom, I don't know computer code.  I did try using the button to insert link.  Are you saying to put [url.....url] inside that dialog box?

Rick

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,212 posts
Posted by tstage on Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:41 AM

That's okay, Rick - neither do I. Big Smile

Using the URL you were trying to post as an example, hopefully this will clear things up and display the code properly...

(url)https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/261209.aspx(/url)

Replace the parentheses with brackets and you're golden.

The front slash in front of the 2nd bracketed url is important, as it tells the software that that completes the command.

FYI: The link icon works fine for any link(s) outside of the MR forum.  For threads inside the forum you have to use the above workaround.

HTH,

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:03 AM

Got it.  Thanks.

Rick

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • 115 posts
Posted by PennsyLou on Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:03 AM

As a ChemE who designed refineries and petrochemical facilities for 40 years, I can comment on tank farm design.  There is usually a single inlet/outlet - there would be bypass piping around the pump to allow liquid to be pumped IN to the tank, the associated pump being used to pump OUT.  Piping through a  berm and running at grade would not be typical.  The "berm" would be a low concrete wall, and the area inside the berm would also be concrete.  An earthen berm and floor as shown is obviously permeable and would result in serious environmental contamination (to groundwater etc.) if the tank leaked or failed, containment being the purpose of the berm.  The piping to/from the tank would run vertically upward and then join a "piperack" running alongside the line of tanks and pumps - a steel structure typically about 15 feet above grade though it could be lower.  Piping running on the ground is not only a safety hazard but also takes up valuable real estate, blocks access pathways to fight fires, etc.

[Edit - It is possible that the Walther's picture is accurate for some installation, somewhere - however I have seen and designed hundreds of facilities on 6 contenents and have never seen a tank farm that looked like that - though  I've seen one that was a bit similar in El Salvador (though the tank farm also had "missile catchers" to shield the tanks from RPG fire from the guerillas in the jungle)]

  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:12 AM

NVSRR

The pipe the fills the tank can be reversed to empty it as well.  When I did work on the Philadelphia airport fuel tank farm, the pipes went over the berms.  Which makes sense.  Don't want any path for the contents to find a way through and get free defeating the purpose of the berm.     To do the thru berm,  put the pipe in before scenery work. Cut the pipe to fit snug against the berm.  When the scenery is applied it will hide what small gap is there between berm and pipe

 

shane

 

Thanks, Shane.  For many of my tanks using one pipe will simplify things.  I have a couple where I will need to run two but that will be easy.  If I use the berms I will go over them but I may use artistic license and leave them out to save space.

Rick

  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:15 AM

PennsyLou

As a ChemE who designed refineries and petrochemical facilities for 40 years, I can comment on tank farm design.  There is usually a single inlet/outlet - there would be bypass piping around the pump to allow liquid to be pumped IN to the tank, the associated pump being used to pump OUT.  Piping through a  berm and running at grade would not be typical.  The "berm" would be a low concrete wall, and the area inside the berm would also be concrete.  An earthen berm and floor as shown is obviously permeable and would result in serious environmental contamination (to groundwater etc.) if the tank leaked or failed, containment being the purpose of the berm.  The piping to/from the tank would run vertically upward and then join a "piperack" running alongside the line of tanks and pumps - a steel structure typically about 15 feet above grade though it could be lower.  Piping running on the ground is not only a safety hazard but also takes up valuable real estate, blocks access pathways to fight fires, etc.

[Edit - It is possible that the Walther's picture is accurate for some installation, somewhere - however I have seen and designed hundreds of facilities on 6 contenents and have never seen a tank farm that looked like that - though  I've seen one that was a bit similar in El Salvador (though the tank farm also had "missile catchers" to shield the tanks from the guerillas in the jungle)]

 

Great info.  You put that up as I was typing that I was thinking about leaving the berms out.  I guess a better solution would be a concrete berm to take up less space.

Rick

  • Member since
    May 2020
  • 1,057 posts
Posted by wrench567 on Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:24 AM

  For a real interesting subject that was the catalyst for modern day tank storage design and safety rules Google Boston molasses disaster. Although it's been many years, some people still smell molasses on hot humid days.

    Pete.

  • Member since
    February 2017
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
  • 640 posts
Posted by hbgatsf on Thursday, August 17, 2023 12:01 PM

wrench567

  For a real interesting subject that was the catalyst for modern day tank storage design and safety rules Google Boston molasses disaster. Although it's been many years, some people still smell molasses on hot humid days.

    Pete.

 

Very interesting story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood

 

Rick

  • Member since
    March 2011
  • 1,950 posts
Posted by NVSRR on Friday, August 18, 2023 11:35 AM

One never thinks of molasses when thinking of these giant tanks.  Wonder if that was a related rail industry at that time.       
hgbatsf.   You could always put a berm around all the tanks instead of individually.   Give the illusion of leak control that way.  

A pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel

A realist sees a frieght train

An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Farmington, NM
  • 383 posts
Posted by -E-C-Mills on Wednesday, August 23, 2023 7:53 PM

I think the earth berm issue might be due to the age of the refinery. For example one can see earth berms at this now shut down refinery at Bloomfield NM. I'm not sure but this may have been built in the 1970s or so.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6976974,-107.9742332,180m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

It looks like some pipes go through the berms.

Nearby is an even older abandoned refinery. Might have been built in the 1950s or earlier.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7039747,-108.0904999,193m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

It looks like one can see remnants of earth berms.

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!