Hi everyone. As some of you know, I am making one half of my layout a zinc smelting waste dump.
As a result, I need to build a deck girder bridge for the entire length of the dump. Similar to the one shown in the picture below.
The highline would be about 8ft long on my layout including a curve. Does anyone make girder sections in long lengths? (I'm talking longer than Atlas snap track long) I have scratchbuilt my own girder bridge before, but to build one this long from scratch would be way too time consuming and tedious. What's the most efficient and economical way to build such a long bridge?
Reccomendations for building really long bridges would be appreciated. Florida East Coast modelers speak up.
On second thought, I'm not even sure if that's actually a girder bridge. Maybe someone out there has expertise on these types of coal/highline dump bridges.
Thanks,
Matt
One way these were made was in cast concrete -- in that part of the world Lehigh cement could be cheap. See all the use the Lackawanna made of various forms (pun intended).
You could easily 'gin something up using a strip of something like wood molding, with wood supports, and just paint in the shuttering detail, spalling and reinforcement rust, etc. that characterize that kind of construction as it ages.
Central Valley makes girder bridge lengths of 80 and 100' I do believe. The picture looks like 100' segments based on the spacing of piers and height of the beams. But not sure of the design. If that is a through center dump, then the design is different from a standard girder bridge, girders have a lot of cross racing that would cause issues with a through deck dumping design. Side dump standard girders are fine. most likely design is Ibeams under the rails with cross beams every 10 feet sandwiched between the tall girders on each side. Looks like a catwalk alongside so most likely the beams are set so the rail is even with the top of the beams.
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Suspect a through girder bridge with 'center dump' would have transverse plate diaphragms for lateral reinforcement, basically like box construction. Presumably there would be angled 'caps' on the top and bottom webs of the members to spill dumped material.
Overmod, A very possible design as well.
I have a book that has photos and such of the NJ zinc mine in Palmerston pa. Will look when I get home to see if there are any clearer pics of that bridge
NVSRR Overmod, A very possible design as well. I have a book that has photos and such of the NJ zinc mine in Palmerston pa. Will look when I get home to see if there are any clearer pics of that bridge shane
Shane, what is the name of this book? I have to add it to my collection
I have some more pictures of the highline at home. They're taken from above so we should be able to see what type of interior bracing was used. I will share them as soon as I get home.
Stay tuned!
mthobbiesWhat's the most efficient and economical way to build such a long bridge? Reccomendations for building really long bridges would be appreciated.
One way is to use something very compact but sturdy as a hidden element of the bridge to give it actual structural strength without having to depend on the "modeled" girders and such and the modeled abutments or pillars. A square tube of aluminum for example, or even a length of good quality wood such as a 1"x1" - with the visible and model portions of the bridge all being attached to that.
I wanted a long-ish girder but did not want the bulk of the Atlas HO girder (the one sold as a flatcar load for example). I ended up getting Atlas N scale girder bridges (cheaply at a swap meet) and kitbashing the side girders to the length I wanted. The only trick was getting the razor saw cuts exactly 90 degrees so that the end result didn't look zig-zaggy but perfectly straight.
Dave Nelson
Assuming you have room on your layout to take such a bridge it should be no problem. Eyeballing the photo I count 12 piers. I see two hopper cars that are just a couple of feet longer than the span between piers. Call the hoppers 40 footers, that makes the piers 80 feet apart or so. You could make it 100 feet and it would look fine. They sell plastic I-beams in various sizes. You want I-beam that looks about the same size and it is some fraction of the distance between piers. Use a pair of dividers on the photo to find how many times the I-beam width fits inbetween the piers.
I would make the piers from soft pine. I would use my radial arm saw (a table saw would work fine) to make the tapered shape. Then I would cover the raw pine with some brick or masonry paper to make them look like masonry.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
mthobbies"Is a bridge this long even possible?".
Sure, this one's just a tad over 8 miles long.
It's difficult to tell from your photo, but if those are side-dump cars on the bridge, then it's likely the the bridge is a deck-girder type (the track atop the girders, rather than running between them).
Micro Engineering offers girders in 30' and 50' lengths, while the Atlas through girder bridge is 65' in length, once you cut-off the curved ends and remove the deck.In the photo below, the tall bridge utilises both sizes of the M.E. girders, while the lower bridge over the road is a cut-down Atlas bridge...
...in all, I have about 16' of bridges. It's been quite some time ago when they were built, but I'd guess the cost to have been somewhere around $200.00. I got the Atlas bridges, both through-girder types and deck truss-types (all used) for only a couple of bucks each, but the M.E. stuff was more expensive and also included the support piers and bridge track, which did drive-up the costs. I also used a Central Valley truss bridge, which added to the costs, too.
The bridge in the photo that you supplied shows concrete piers, and if you make your own, you'd likely not only get some savings, but also be able to make them exactly the height you need, rather than hunting around for something that looks similar and costs more.I made moulds for my piers using .060" sheet styrene, and cast them in Durabond-90 patching plaster.
Here's a 3-piece mould for making the tall piers in the previous photo (I scored and scraped the inside faces of the moulds to simulate the board detail which would have been created had planks been used to build the real ones...
Before assembling the mould for casting, I used a paper towel with some vegetable oil to coat the inside surfaces of the mould(s) to prevent the plaster from sticking to the surface of the mould. Those two small squares cemented to the bottom of the mould were added to create depressions in what will become the top of the pier, and will act as locators to keep the bridge from moving laterally when a train is passing over.
Here's the same mould assembled...
As you can see, it's upside-down...that allowed me to make piers of various heights from the same mould, simply by filling them to a point just slightly higher than required for each particular pier.The Durabond-90 sets in about 90 minutes, (they also offer a 60 minute version) when the mould can be removed. While it will be solid at this point, it's best to cut the bottom of the pier before the plaster cures even more, as it will get very hard. I used a hacksaw to trim-off most of the excess, then rubbed the bottom over coarse sandpaper to get it to the exact height needed. I used a 1" brush and thinned Pollyscale paint to stain the plaster, then added rust streaks using brush-applied oil-based pastels. The piers can be cemented to the plywood river bottoms using white glue or yellow carpenter's glue.
All of my bridges, regardless of length, are removeable as one-piece units.
Wayne
dknelson mthobbies What's the most efficient and economical way to build such a long bridge? Reccomendations for building really long bridges would be appreciated. One way is to use something very compact but sturdy as a hidden element of the bridge to give it actual structural strength without having to depend on the "modeled" girders and such and the modeled abutments or pillars. A square tube of aluminum for example, or even a length of good quality wood such as a 1"x1" - with the visible and model portions of the bridge all being attached to that. I wanted a long-ish girder but did not want the bulk of the Atlas HO girder (the one sold as a flatcar load for example). I ended up getting Atlas N scale girder bridges (cheaply at a swap meet) and kitbashing the side girders to the length I wanted. The only trick was getting the razor saw cuts exactly 90 degrees so that the end result didn't look zig-zaggy but perfectly straight. Dave Nelson
mthobbies What's the most efficient and economical way to build such a long bridge? Reccomendations for building really long bridges would be appreciated.
Dave, that's definitely the most economical way of building a bridge, but for me, I need more detail. I'd like to be able to look through the top of the bridge and see the ground beneath - more open frame.
Plus, as others have mentioned, if this is for center dump hoppers, then the top would have to be open.
dstarr They sell plastic I-beams in various sizes. You want I-beam that looks about the same size and it is some fraction of the distance between piers. Use a pair of dividers on the photo to find how many times the I-beam width fits inbetween the piers.
They sell plastic I-beams in various sizes. You want I-beam that looks about the same size and it is some fraction of the distance between piers. Use a pair of dividers on the photo to find how many times the I-beam width fits inbetween the piers.
Good idea! I was actually thinking of using styrene channel (maybe 5/16"? But I haven't been able to find anything bigger) as the sideplates of the bridge rather than trying to splice a hundred little girders together. And since the styrene is flexible, it would follow the curved track smoothly.
doctorwayne As you can see, it's upside-down...that allowed me to make piers of various heights from the same mould, simply by filling them to a point just slightly higher than required for each particular pier.
As you can see, it's upside-down...that allowed me to make piers of various heights from the same mould, simply by filling them to a point just slightly higher than required for each particular pier.
Right on Wayne! I love the idea of casting the piers in the styrene mold. The upsidedown trick is awesome because my track is on a grade so that would allow me to use the same mold for all the piers! Great explaination!
This is great. I knew you guys would have some killer ideas.
mthobbiesDoes anyone make girder sections in long lengths?
the real bridge would not be a long girder either - each span between the concrete support piers is a separate girder.
Build your bridge the same way. You don't need a massive 8-foot girder. You build it up from a bunch of shorter ones.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
I needed a wider girder bridge as the track curved as it went over the bridge. I think these are atlas girders with the tapered ends chopped off and glued together.
I am sure the engineers in the crowd are rolling their collective eyes, but I haven't lost a train yet.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Model Railroader November 2020 page 46
Read that article, then do what it says.
mthobbies And since the styrene is flexible, it would follow the curved track smoothly.
And since the styrene is flexible, it would follow the curved track smoothly.
NVSRR I have a book that has photos and such of the NJ zinc mine in Palmerston pa. Will look when I get home to see if there are any clearer pics of that bridge shane
Here are some pictures of the bridge from my collection. It appears to be a center-dump style.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmW7T4MM
You guys were right. Judging by the first photo, the bridge is made up of straight girder sections with piers at the joints.
Hi Matt,
I can't see your pictures. Are you using a photo hosting site like Imgur?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critterI can't see your pictures.
He'll have to repost them on a real photo-hosting site before we can see them.
Sorry guys, I was using my Google photos but apparently that doesn't work. Why does technology never cooperate!
Anyway, I uploaded them to my flickr. Check now
Now nothing at all is visible in the post where the little rectangles were before. Perhaps you used the wrong complicated rigmarole Flickr uses to insert a clickable link...
I can see the pictures when I click on the link in your post.
You can insert the pictures themselves. Flickr can be used but I'm not sure how. Maybe Ed can explain. I use Imgur and I find it to be really easy.
Hi Matt. Yes that is a through bridge dump. The one pic has an ALCO s unit which I do believe is 52 feet long or 56. Either way it is positioned nicely to say the spacing of piers is 80 feet. The height matches micro engineering 50 foot girder bridge beams. An overhead would be nice to see the details. The book I have is on the Lehigh and New England railroad and has an aerial of the entire plant. Unfortunately printed in low resolution.
NVSRR The book I have is on the Lehigh and New England railroad and has an aerial of the entire plant. Unfortunately printed in low resolution. shane
The book I have is on the Lehigh and New England railroad and has an aerial of the entire plant. Unfortunately printed in low resolution.
Thanks Shane. Is that book worth getting? I'm always on the lookout for aerial pictures of this plant.
-Matt
Matt I found the same image in digital form> it does allow better zoom in. Still doesnt answer the question. Does make a large number of new questions thought. I found a couple views including one from the same place as yours only many decades earlier. The three raise a bunch of questions. Once I get all the pics on the same screen here I can figure it out. I do enjoy the amateur industrial archeology. This is a fun part of the hobby for me. I will really dig into this tomorrow night on the desk top where I have photo tools and higher resolution ability. If it is the bridge structure I think it is, it is actually double tracked. I also find some of the buildings to be very modeler friendly.
Shane
I didn't see this mentined in the posts I looked at. You can easily carve your piers out of extruded foam. If they are cast concrete, just paint them, if they are stone, scribe them with a ball point pen to make the lines between the blocks.
Good luck,
Richard
NVSRR Matt I found the same image in digital form> it does allow better zoom in. Still doesnt answer the question. Does make a large number of new questions thought. I found a couple views including one from the same place as yours only many decades earlier. The three raise a bunch of questions. Once I get all the pics on the same screen here I can figure it out. I do enjoy the amateur industrial archeology. This is a fun part of the hobby for me. I will really dig into this tomorrow night on the desk top where I have photo tools and higher resolution ability. If it is the bridge structure I think it is, it is actually double tracked. I also find some of the buildings to be very modeler friendly. Shane
Shane, I need to see these pictures! I'm intrested in the whole plant not just the bridge.
Please share the links here, or message me directly and I'll give you my email.
mthobbies dknelson mthobbies What's the most efficient and economical way to build such a long bridge? Reccomendations for building really long bridges would be appreciated. One way is to use something very compact but sturdy as a hidden element of the bridge to give it actual structural strength without having to depend on the "modeled" girders and such and the modeled abutments or pillars. A square tube of aluminum for example, or even a length of good quality wood such as a 1"x1" - with the visible and model portions of the bridge all being attached to that. I wanted a long-ish girder but did not want the bulk of the Atlas HO girder (the one sold as a flatcar load for example). I ended up getting Atlas N scale girder bridges (cheaply at a swap meet) and kitbashing the side girders to the length I wanted. The only trick was getting the razor saw cuts exactly 90 degrees so that the end result didn't look zig-zaggy but perfectly straight. Dave Nelson Dave, that's definitely the most economical way of building a bridge, but for me, I need more detail. I'd like to be able to look through the top of the bridge and see the ground beneath - more open frame.
A fair point, since I too wanted that 'look down' element on a bridge of mind, even though you'd have to contort yourself to get the view.
Using a squared tube of clear acrylic might be a solution.
Matt,
Got your answer to the bridge. And officially discusted with how poor google and bing search algarythms are. Mush searching found absolutely noting. Then I realized one of my go to sources wasnt appearing. Hagley Digital archive. Jumped over and sure enough answer abound.
Long story slightly longer.
I first found this pic through google which is the same spot as the one you posted. only this one is 1913. Note the very good condition canal boats. This plant was never canal served but the canal of Old companies Lehigh is right there. The lehigh river is on the other side of the burm.
This why I was so confused about the canal and how I couldnt figure it out on google earth. NJ Zinc is two plants split by a mile. The east plant is closer one while the west plant (one in your pic) is the one distant. I never knew that , same similar layout of both plants. So I was looking at only the east plant. Once I hit Hagley digital archive (where the other three pics come from) The shot answered many questions. (the west plant has been demolished)
This is the easy plant
Note the slag pile against blue mountain. And the multiple switch back railroad used to access it to dump. And no canal.
This is the west plant. Against blue mountain is The L&NE and the LV. The CNJ on the north side of theplant. Your picture and the first pic I put up were both shot off the L&NE main. On the right by the canal is your bridge. It is indeed a drop through girder bridge. Cat walks on both sides. Not the two gantry bridges on the left. They fed the long building paralleling. It had a conveyor. How they piled on the left of the bridge is an unknown.
Save the pics to your desktop and then you can zoom in. They are detailed. and very clear. On my screen I can see the bridge design. Right at the two loaded hoppers just off the chord section was a turnout. It was double tracked at one point. The rails run on top of the girders. Up to the three empty hoppers it is a deck girder. You can see the abutment where the deck stops. About every ten feet an I beam That crossed. that tied the tops together. and was the only interior structure needed so loads can drop through. The girders are 60 foot long to pier centers. This is not where the waste is dumped. That was hauled over to the east plant and the pile over there. This is the inbound materials. Not one half is a darker material. that is coal. the lighter is Ore. Not difficult to build from micro engineering girders.
Plant operation:
those materials were loaded onto the conveyor. went to the grinding mill or ball mill. turned into a powder and they were combined and formed into bricks. which then went to the furnace. Zinc removed, and the waste moved to the waste pile at the east plant. Told it looked every bit like steel slag when it is dumped. Moved in side dump cars.
The west plant is gone. Demolished in 1988. after the operations ceased because zinc prices fell to rock bottom. The east plant also slowed. and eventually stopped using ore and started recycling arc dust. Which is dust from the electric arc furnace process. They clean it and remelt the zinc back into blocks, off to make new electrodes for arc furnaces. The west plant went into service in 1906. east plant 1898 (same time the build the town) Palmerton was a company town. Built way past the time of the canal> Built here because of the short distance to coal.
They had all alco S2 switchers and so did the chestnut ridge railroad. A fleet of 0-6-0's where before the diesels. Not sure what the chesnut ridge had for steam power.
The plant and the railroads and other decent sized industries in palmerton makes this small area an entire model railroad in its own right.
NVSRRSave the pics to your desktop and then you can zoom in. They are detailed. and very clear. On my screen I can see the bridge design. Right at the two loaded hoppers just off the chord section was a turnout. It was double tracked at one point. The rails run on top of the girders. Up to the three empty hoppers it is a deck girder. You can see the abutment where the deck stops. About every ten feet an I beam That crossed. that tied the tops together. and was the only interior structure needed so loads can drop through. The girders are 60 foot long to pier centers. This is not where the waste is dumped. That was hauled over to the east plant and the pile over there. This is the inbound materials. Not one half is a darker material. that is coal. the lighter is Ore. Not difficult to build from micro engineering girders.
Wow Shane! Thanks for the details! I'd love to hear more about the operation side of things. Also, I am amazed that you were able to decipher that information from those pictures. I can hardly see the girders, not to mention the I-beams! You have good eyesight lol
- Matt
I'm from the Palmerton area (well, 10 miles west of Palmerton at the west end of the Chestnut Ridge RR in Kunkletown, but I lived in Palmerton back in the early 00s), but I don't get home to visit family very often and was surprised at the cleanup they've been doing at the former west plant location at Hazard. When I lived there, it looked like an industrial wasteland, but when I last drove through on 248 about 8 months ago, they were in the process of what looked like a full scale land reclaimation project. I'll be visitiing family for the holidays next week, I'll have to take a run past, see what's changed (although I fear the answer will be new housing developments).
Once upon a time, I had serious hopes of modeling the whole Lehigh Gap area, but while the LV and to a lesser extent the LNE were my focus, I really wanted to include the CRRR out to the former brickworks in Kunkletown, which would have necessitated including the CNJ and plant trackage at Palmerton. In the end, I just didn't have the space so now I focus on a section of the LV in the Gorge between Glen Onoko and White Haven. But somewhere I still have a 40 or 50 page document showing the ca 1930 track plans for the east and west plants... I just haven't seen them in 20 years. If I can find them, or even remember where I got them, I'll get them scanned and uploaded for sharing.
-Jason
Jason, You wouldn't recognize the east plant either. It is still operating but the cleanup has been massive there too. I remember going through Lehigh tunnel and seeing the barren wasteland on the other side. Then over he years watching nature reclaim it. I definetly would love to see the track plans for those plants.