When I built my new layout, I began the descent from mainline to yard by transitioning the yard ladder immediately from ballasted track to grade level. However, this resulted in the first couple of turnouts sloping a bit downward as the ladder approached grade level.
Would it make more sense to keep the entire ladder (a series of six turnouts) ballasted at the same level as the mainline and then begin the transition off of the divergent ends of each turnout onto the yard tracks?
I am curious what others do.
Rich
Alton Junction
I've used shimming shingles for years with excellent results. These are available at lumber yards and big box stores like Lowes etc. The best thing about them is they are cheap, they give a very nice gradual transition, and you can cut them to suit your needs very easily.
Their real function is to shim door and window frames to level them up.
Joe
PS. If you do the transition at the mainline-yard junction, you will only need the transition at each end of the yard. That way the whole yard is at the same grade.
A lot of people talk about shimming, but that makes little sense to me. I prefer to match the surface of the cork of the mainline to the surface of the yard. That way there is no "ramp" or shimming needed.
Since my mainline subroadbed is installed on risers, I can simply match the surface where the yard surface begins (be it Homasote or foam) to the surface of the cork that is mounted on the mainline subroadbed. No ramp or shimming required. The surface the track is mounted on is at the same elevation.
Here are some photo's where I've done this:
At the very bottom of this photo (below) you can see where the cork matches the yard surface so the track cosses over with no ramping.
This matching surfaces seems totally intuitive but you must built it in during construction to avoid the need for ramps or shims.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Rich,
My approach in situations such as this is "what would the prototype do"? In 1:1 scale, economics is the gorilla in the room.
Most mainline to yard transitions I have seen have the mainline at a greater height than the surrounding terrain for drainage reasons. Considerable expense is tolerated in keeping traffic moving in this regard. Yards, on the other hand, can be bypassed, if flooded. Due to the amount of earth moving required, and the expense involved, a yard was usually laid at grade. To economically go from the mainline to yard a ramp was necessary and, the ladder or, lead was where it was most logical and economical to place the transition. Many older yards were laid out and constructed before the widespread use of mechanization in earthmoving.
At no point has it been said this way is right and that way is wrong or, it was never done that way. It's just to look at the situation from a prototypic point of view, never forgeting the the specter of economics.
How would the railroad you favor have approached this issue?
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions so far. When I look to the prototype for ideas, I can find plenty of photos of yards which all appear at grade level, but the photos don't show the yard ladder. I will keep on looking for protoype photos of yard ladders.
NHTXMy approach in situations such as this is "what would the prototype do"?
Indeed yes but one issue is that a turnout on a downward slope on the prototype, at least at slow yard speeds, creates tracking issues that the massive prototype sprung trucks on cars and locomotives can deal with far better than our models can.
Drainage is one reason why mains are higher than sidings and yards. Keeping the main line safe from out of control rolling stock is another. Very few double ended model railroad yards have the slight "bowl" effect that you commonly see on so called flat (versus hump) yards.
Dave Nelson
I did what RioGrande did. I transitioned the mainline from foam/cork roadbed to flat yard height where the main yard area homasote subroadbed began. The entire mainline/yard track was then done at that flat elevation. The yard leads were also built at the flat elevation.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
Many prototype installations have the side tracks descend right through the ladder switches. Then again, many do not. I generally do.
Here's what mine look like:
Ramp built up under short ladder using 1/4" masking tape - 17 years ago. Functioned flawlessly.
Here's a photo of a siding off the main in Powell Wyoming. I've seen small yards that look about the same with the dropoff progressing right through the ladder switches.
Here's a small throat in Hampton SC in 2013, taken from Google Maps.
And here's my Casper yard throat under construction a couple years ago. Note the masking tape ramp under the turnout - this is the first turnout of the throat. From left to right, the tracks are Mainline, Passing siding / A/D, and first classification track.
Here's the mostly-completed throat. The ramp is under the turnout at the lower left. Trains runs flawlessly through turnout on the ramp (and the others too).
The key is to make the ramp gradual, easing into and out of it. My ramps are 11" long, dropping about 1/8" through the length. The template I use for laying the masking tape:
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I like the look of lowering the yard areas of the layout as I see it with the prototype everywhere I drive in the mountainous West. If a railcar escapes the sunken bowl in this part of the world onto the main it could be going a long way at warp speed until its demise.
I lower the mainline cork where it goes down to the yard by cutting out the foam and putting the cork in the hole until it is level. I have different lengths for this process depending on the off-ramp.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Onewolf I did what RioGrande did. I transitioned the mainline from foam/cork roadbed to flat yard height where the main yard area homasote subroadbed began. The entire mainline/yard track was then done at that flat elevation. The yard leads were also built at the flat elevation.
There you go. Check out Phil's layout photo's and you'll see he is a master layout builder!
Choose wisely young paddowans.
My methods are similar to Pruitt and Brent. Cascade/Homabed actually made transition strips just for that, but clearly not really for having the turnouts on the grade.
I have had turnouts on such a transition with no issues, but generally I have been able to arrange such trackage to avoid that for the most part by making the transition in a different spot.
After positioning homabed type roadbed, a belt sander can do amazing things.
Sheldon
It dose not have to be all or nothing, you could make the yard lower by half if that suits you.
Pruitt Many prototype installations have the side tracks descend right through the ladder switches. Then again, many do not. I generally do. Here's what mine look like: Ramp built up under short ladder using 1/4" masking tape - 17 years ago. Functioned flawlessly. Here's a photo of a siding off the main in Powell Wyoming. I've seen small yards that look about the same with the dropoff progressing right through the ladder switches. Here's a small throat in Hampton SC in 2013, taken from Google Maps. And here's my Casper yard throat under construction a couple years ago. Note the masking tape ramp under the turnout - this is the first turnout of the throat. From left to right, the tracks are Mainline, Passing siding / A/D, and first classification track. Here's the mostly-completed throat. The ramp is under the turnout at the lower left. Trains runs flawlessly through turnout on the ramp (and the others too). The key is to make the ramp gradual, easing into and out of it. My ramps are 11" long, dropping about 1/8" through the length. The template I use for laying the masking tape:
Mark, I think this is a very realistic look. Glad to hear that it functions flawlessly. Of course, its important to keep the turnouts flat, but not necessarily level.
The prototype pics you shared is how I typically think of it. The siding and yard would be lower to keep stray cars from rolling onto the mainline.
Rich, even though Mark's looks great to me, I would keep the ladder the same as the mainline than transition each yard track off of the ladder. Just in case my track laying skills were not as good as Mark's and the turnouts would end up humpy.
- Douglas
Just as a note, probably the chief reason the main tends to be higher than the adjacent yard tracks is that over the years maintenance in the form of additional ballast has caused a series of lifts. You can often see this same effect in older station platforms, which were built to be several inches above rail height (look at old pictures). The many ballast lifts over the years can even result in the ballast itself reaching the elevation of the platform.
Yard tracks are notorious for receiving minimal maintenance and thus end up lower by default.
John
Safety is a part of 'economics'. When you have unwanted 'meets' due to faulty grading anywhere on a rail system, you're going to cost yourself some dough, at which dividends go wanting.
Just as all proto sidings are lower, with I'm sure a limited number of exceptions scattered there and here, you'd expect there to be a subtle grade change between the operations of a yard and mains running nearby or through it. It might not be noticeable to the untrained eye, certainly not over the tens of yards along which the transitions would take place, but my bet is that they would be there.
In my case, I just let the tracks, even if they're turnouts as entire appliances, conform to the transition. I have a yard throat that is descending from the mains, and the transition continues along the ladder until the second of the five Micro Engineering ladder system turnouts. By the first of the after-throat turnouts, about 75% of the transition has already happened. On my layout, the difference is rather severe, but that was so that I could keep my mainline grades minimal for the folded loop with overpass; I have my main passing the yard on 1/4" ply, plus cork, while the yard is on the homasoted plywood that the high iron runs on as well. This would not be prototypical...not at about three scale feet of change.
What I mainly wanted to say is that you can let ballast materials form your ramps if cork or strips or wedges aren't your cuppa. Just lay down some ballast, pick up and jiggle the turnouts in place until you have your grade running well, and then, after checking all joints and alignments, start gluing the substrate.
Many ways to skin this cat. I elevated my entire yard with a layer of thin foam. So there is practically no transition between the cork roadbed and the yard. I tried to avoid inclines on my layout, they are just a nuisance when switching.
Simon
snjroy Many ways to skin this cat. I elevated my entire yard with a layer of thin foam. So there is practically no transition between the cork roadbed and the yard. I tried to avoid inclines on my layout, they are just a nuisance when switching. Simon
I agree. My first yard and a few sidings were built a long time ago, when I had old plastic wheelsets on my rolling stock. They've all been upgraded to metal wheelsets now. I love the improved rolling resistance, but they find every non-level track and roll down it. So, when thinking of sloped yard throats, consider keeping a level with you during construction, because you don't want your freight cars taking unplanned trips.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yeah, metal wheels and free rolling cars are a real nuisance. Who cares about rolling resistance when you pull 8 car trains. The slightest imperfections cause cars to settle in the low spot. Give me old school plastic wheels any day.
The point of the slope in a yard or a siding is to keep the cars contained therein.
Spurs that have slight unintentional slopes the wrong way are a hazard.
That last few inches of benchwork could be shimmed upwards.
I remember MR had and article by Pele Sorborg(sp?) using different thicknesses of hobby store foam to create a yard lower than the mainline. I do not have access to the archives.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I am grateful for all of the great comments and suggestions made by so many of you in such a short period of time. It seems that more than a few of you prefer to maintain the yard at the same level of the mainline, while retaining the appearance of grade level.
I had not considered this approach where the mainline ballast provides the look of a mainline higher than the appearance of a grade level yard. I like this idea a lot, but to accomplish that I would have to rip up the entire yard to lay down cork like I have as the roadbed on the mainline. So, I have to think that over before undertaking that approach.
What got me started on all of this was an experiment to use my existing freight yard as visible staging. If I eliminate my engine servicing facility, or at least the turntable and roundhouse, I need an alternative site for my steam engines.
So, the thought was to keep the steamers in the staging yard connected to strings of freight cars. Since the yard is stub end, I would back the steam locomotives into the staging yard. That led to some derailments on the first turnout on the yard ladder. That turnout is not perfectly level as it slopes down toward grade level.
So, I began to consider alternative methods to keep the yard ladder level.
Lastspikemike Does it derail at the end of the inclined turnout where the track transitions to the lower horizontal yard tracks? That's where I predict any problems would occur. We had a troublesome crossover at the end of a downgrade using Peco #8 turnouts. I diagnosed the fault as ending the downgrade too close to the entry to the crossover. Long wheelbase locomotives would derail on the points. Moving the end of the downgrade further away from the crossover by just a small amount solved the problem.
Does it derail at the end of the inclined turnout where the track transitions to the lower horizontal yard tracks? That's where I predict any problems would occur.
We had a troublesome crossover at the end of a downgrade using Peco #8 turnouts. I diagnosed the fault as ending the downgrade too close to the entry to the crossover. Long wheelbase locomotives would derail on the points. Moving the end of the downgrade further away from the crossover by just a small amount solved the problem.
Although that first turnout on the ladder sits on cork, just like the mainline, it is slightly sloped toward the grade. I am considering replacing that first yard ladder turnout with a section of straight track, bypassing the first yard track adjacent to the mainline. I would connect that replaced turnout on the second yard track to reconnect to the first yard track.
Hope that all makes sense.
By the way, none of my steam locomotives have any problems traversing the entire yard ladder when exiting the yard moving forward.
I have a smallish HO layout. Accordingly. I chose to make the Homabed roadbed shallow-1/8" thick-so it does not appear too dominant. Yards, sidings and spurs are on the flat, below the higher mains. Tapered transitions connect them to the mains. Turnouts are level, the transitions begin at the ends of the turnouts. It all works well. I have seen at shows some turnouts that are on a slope; the club member said that was not a problem as long as the turnout was level across the track.
Dante
dante I have a smallish HO layout. Accordingly. I chose to make the Homabed roadbed shallow-1/8" thick-so it does not appear too dominant. Yards, sidings and spurs are on the flat, below the higher mains. Tapered transitions connect them to the mains. Turnouts are level, the transitions begin at the ends of the turnouts. It all works well. I have seen at shows some turnouts that are on a slope; the club member said that was not a problem as long as the turnout was level across the track. Dante
They are level either at or below the main line track.
richhotrain When I built my new layout, I began the descent from mainline to yard by transitioning the yard ladder immediately from ballasted track to grade level. However, this resulted in the first couple of turnouts sloping a bit downward as the ladder approached grade level. Would it make more sense to keep the entire ladder (a series of six turnouts) ballasted at the same level as the mainline and then begin the transition off of the divergent ends of each turnout onto the yard tracks? I am curious what others do. Rich
Just build up the area under your yard ladder with the same thickness as your roadbed. Then you won't have any grades and the yard track will be at ground level.
For example, if you use 1/4" cork roadbed on the mainline, you can put sheets of 1/4" cork under your yard tracks to bring the top of the rails up to the same height as the mainline.
Matt
On a layout for a club I used to belong to, the several mainline sidings were built lower than the main. The grade change happened right at the switch. IN it, really. Derailments galore.
We went through all those sidings and moved the grade transition from the switch, past the corrective curve, and into the straight part of the siding. It was fun. We broke out the ballast, jacked up the track, and re-applied more ballast. Kinda like the big guys do.
Derailments on those siding vanished.
These were passing sidings, not yard tracks. There was plenty of track room to do the trick, something not always available in a (model) yard.
Nevertheless, it demonstrated that it is better not to have grade transitions in a switch.
The problem is much worse for us than the prototype. Note that there's another topic extolling the use of equalized trucks. Like the real ones. Note also that most of us don't USE equalized trucks. And then consider steam locomotives.
So what could/would work on the prototype may not work for us. And, by the way, it can go in the other direction for other problems.
Ed
7j43kOn a layout for a club I used to belong to, the several mainline sidings were built lower than the main. The grade change happened right at the switch. IN it, really. Derailments galore.
We went through all those sidings and moved the grade transition from the switch, past the corrective curve, and into the straight part of the siding. It was fun. We broke out the ballast, jacked up the track, and re-applied more ballast. Kinda like the big guys do. Derailments on those siding vanished.
These were passing sidings, not yard tracks.
The problem is much worse for us than the prototype.
And then consider steam locomotives.
Anyway, the lower level elevations on sidings is purely cosmetic, so its inclusion is optional. For many folks those transitions are no doubt more trouble than they're worth. It takes me half an hour to lay each of mine, but they function well, and for me the appearance is worth that time and effort.
But I will say, if the first one I built hadn't worked well, I'd have dropped the whole effort and instead placed the sidings on sheet cork to provide a more shallow ballast shoulder and given the illusion of lowered sidings.