There's a trend these days on YouTube where people create 'Unboxing Videos', so much so that such videos seem to have pretty much coalesced into a genre of sorts.
Some videos begin with the raw unopened package as it arrives from the online merchant, demonstrating packaging and handling. Some videos are obviously staged, where the contents of the box have been taken out and examined (and maybe even played with) and then put back in the box and re-opened for the camera. Both versions are useful to show just what it is you get and how you get it and the condition it is in when it shows up on your front porch. And nowadays with so much online retailing, these things can be informative. Or revealing.
I'd like to hear from forum members about their experiences buying model-railroad-related stuff online. The decisions on kits we buy are often based on glorified glamour photos of assembled and painted models (accessories sold separately) shown on the boxtops. I'd like to see what is actually in the box.
I'm particularly interested in laser-cut kits. The Walthers, the Cornerstones, the Atlases, the Katos, the DPMs, etc have been around for a pretty long time and are pretty well known. There are some laser kits that have been around for a while, but I have direct experience with only a relative few. And there are some new laser kits from relatively new companies (and some very new and completely unknown companies) advertising online and in the back of hobby publications.
So, anyone want to jump in with some clear detailed photos of new arrivals? Any YouTubers within reach of this post? Anyone want to review and critique and offer advice, info, and suggestions regarding scale model kits? We're not looking for scathing reviews or angry ripostes about purchases that went south. Neither are we looking for unpaid shills hawking any particular thing. I just want to know what's what. To satisfy my curiosity, I've bought many kits over the years I have no need for or place for, and that's been interesting, but a little expensive. I'm hoping to find information another way.
Thanks, Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I've got a few laser-cut structures under my belt. I very much enjoy building them but a new set of skills are necessary for someone used to the traditional styrene kit.
This winter I plan to tackle the PRR Harris tower:
PRR_Harris2 by Edmund, on Flickr
This is an HO kit sold by the N SCALE Architect? I completed a Lackawanna concrete tower a while back. This kit was a bit of a challenge as the pieces of wall section had to be "stacked" in a particular order and many of the parts looked very similar.
DLW_tower1 by Edmund, on Flickr
You have to keep the part location "map" handy and double check it during assembly.
DLW_tower5 by Edmund, on Flickr
The primary cement I use for laser kits is the Faller "Expert Laser Cement" which is a type of PVA. This is pretty thin which I like for its capillary action and self-leveling.
DLW_onsite1 by Edmund, on Flickr
DLnW_tower by Edmund, on Flickr
One of the pieces of rolling stock I've built was this AMB New York Central caboose:
IMG_7244_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
IMG_7250_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Using the sticky-backed trim pieces is fine for assembly but I believe an additional application of glue or paint is needed to make a more permanent bond. On some joints a dab of very thin ACC is good which will be drawn into the joint and add strength.
NYC_19186 by Edmund, on Flickr
You have to plan out your painting sequence, too, since the windows have to be assembled with the glazing so pre-painting the final color then later touch up is a good way to go. I prime all the parts, both sides on the ones without sticky-backing, using Krylon grey primer.
Here's a few more laser cut structures:
Yard_office4 by Edmund, on Flickr
Burger_house2 by Edmund, on Flickr
A PRR "Watch Box":
Burger_Crossing_A2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Texaco_1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Some of these still need to have some finishing touches applied to them... someday
Regards, Ed
Hey Ed-
Thanks, this is great!
The reason I started this thread came from a couple of other recent threads: one regarding the differences between N Scale structures and HO Scale structures, and another WPF post talking about some laser-cut N Scale windows that were a little less-than-stellar.
I also had some issues in my (limited) previous experience with laser-cut kits regarding windows. The main one being that the tabs or the nubs or the slots that were the laser equivalent of sprues were too big or too thick or otherwise too difficult to cut, even with a brand new unused sharp #11 blade. Some parts were thin (balsa) wood, others were thin plywood, others were something that looked like manilla folders and had the texture and thickness of card stock paper. The wood parts split even though I used the bare minimum amount of force to cut through the tabs, and the paper ones cut through easily enough but the thin window mullions were too delicate to hold up to anything more than the amount of pressure required to pick them up and handle them.
One kit (American Model Builders) was delicate but a little sturdier, so I think there is some pretty good stuff out there. The issue at hand is how to find it. The easy solution is to simply buy one or two or a dozen kits and develop my own knowledge base. That's the expensive lesson; I'm looking for the less expensive solution. That's one of the great things about the internet in general and this forum in particular.
gmpullman
Looking at the above photo . . .
What material are those pieces and parts made from? How well do they stand up to normal (or even delicate) handling? Are those burn marks easy to clean up? Do burn marks show through paint? Do the burnt edges of the cuts require a lot of sanding and filing to get a clean straight edge?
Sorry for so many questions but I have one more regarding the Expert Laser Cement . . . how long a shelf life after opening?
gmpullman Some of these still need to have some finishing touches applied to them... someday
Yeah . . . don't I know it! I have a bunch of stuff in the almost finished pile.
Thanks again.
Robert
Hi, Robert
Those burn marks you see are on the paper backing for the parts that have the "peel-n-stick" adhesive applied:
Harris_Kit-prr by Edmund, on Flickr
The burn marks are less prevalent on the wood parts. I have to presume the kit designers use the best material for what they have determined will give the best results.
PRR_Harris-kit by Edmund, on Flickr
This is a rather complex kit and there are at least five different materials plus acetate for windows and PVC for the roofing. The main structure box is actually plywood, some three-ply and thicker pieces of five-ply. The fine detail parts are like veneer wood and are definitely fragile. Some parts are made with a type of "laser chipboard" which is a cross between shirt cardboard and MDF particle board.
Harris_Kit-prr2 by Edmund, on Flickr
This is where a primer paint coat will help stiffen the sross-grain and make handling the part a little less damage prone. Still, you have to plan out how you're going to extract the part without damage, sometimes nipping away the carrier sheet with fine side cutters or small shears similar to what is used for trimming etched brass parts.
Use a good, solid surface, either glass or a stiffer type of cutting mat if you plan to use an X-acto knife. Even the slight taper of the knife blade is enough to stress the part and cause a split.
This is also the reason I like a canopy cement or the Expert Laser glue as this stuff is thin enough to soak into the grain of the wood when you need to make repairs or if you want to enhance the strength of the wood.
The small nubs where the part is removed from the carrier sheet is easily cleaned up with a sanding stick or a piece of 400+ emery cloth tacked to a smooth surface. Again, extreme care is needed for those tiny parts.
American Model Builders has several smaller structures that might be good for anyone planning to attempt a laserkit.
Good Luck, Ed
Beautiful work, Ed.
I had a few things to say about a simple laser cut kit in one of my Frugal Modeler columns in the NMRA Midwest Region Waybill newsletter:
http://www.mwr-nmra.org/mwr2016/mwr-images/waybillfiles/waybill2020summer.pdf
It is an old true-ism, repeated everywhere, but reading the instructions thoroughly BEFORE any start at any kit is repeated advice because it is good advice, yet ignored too often. Over the years I have built enough of a certain type of "difficult" kit - for example the LifeLike Proto2000 freight cars -- that as I read the instructions I already start to ink in little suggestions to myself about how to proceed. I know now for example that the instructions that came with the old Pacific HO mechanical reefer kit are flawed because the tooling for the kit has some flaws. My annotated instruction sheet is what I used if I happened upon another example of the kit.
By contrast some kits I am now so familiar with that I do not need the instructions. But it never hurts to be reminded!
The same was true when I built two versions of the same laser cut kit for the article I wrote. I had thoroughly annotated the first set of instructions both with anticipated issues before I built and actually experienced issues after I was done, maybe bits of advice or actual suggested changes to the sequence of steps, when and what to paint first that sort of thing. The more laser cut kits you build, the more you can actually visualize the process as you read through the instructions and the more things strike you to pencil in before beginning. One example is that I now know from experience that I should make a little mark to remind me quickly which side of the peel and stick parts has the sticky side. In the heat of battle it is easy to paint the wrong side, etc.
One other piece of advice that is carried over from styrene kits. Just as you do not want to remove parts from the styrene sprue too early because the part number you need is likely on the sprue, so too you do not want to remove laser cut parts from their "fret" or sheet too early because the instructions identifying the part likely point out where they are on the complete sheet, and many parts may be similar but crucially different. When I find laser cut parts have fallen out of the fret beforehand, I try to put them back in for that very reason.
I also agree with Ed and suggest that the American Model Builders one-car garage is an excellent laser cut kit to begin with -- small, relatively simple, and clear instructions -- and even make some modest alterations to, as I discuss in the article. And I second his vote for the Faller product.
Dave Nelson
Hey Dave -
Thanks for the info. I downloaded the Summer 2020 edition of The Waybill and read your article, along with a few others. Nice publication.
My layout has a little farm, inspired by a pretty famous dairy in upstate New York run by Max Yasgur.
I found some suitable N Scale buildings produced by AMB: 1) a simple, but elegant, two-story farmhouse, 2) a fairly large barn of the type I've seen on successful farms, and 3) a silo in similar proportions and style to the barn. They are offered as a three-piece set, or individually. I like to imagine my little farm as a successful multi-generation going concern, and I can easily see these three buildings forming a neat and tidy family compound at the heart of it.
Do you know these buildings? Have you built them or any one of them? Have you pencilled in any notes in the margins of their instruction manuals? Do they even come with instructions, however thin or poorly written? If not, that is perfectly okay. The things you wrote above and in your article give me a lot to think about in my approach to this slight bend in my modeling pursuits.
I've built the Weimer's Mill kit and the Munnsville Depot kit, both from Branchline Trains. I found both to be easier than anticipated and I was very happy with the results.
Both kits were in boxes that were far larger than necessary. The thin wood sheets seemed lost in the packaging. On the other hand, nothing was damaged.
I turned the depot into a Railway Express building with some homemade decals and a truck parked outside. Both structures were immensely satisfying projects.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hi Robert,
I've taken to laser cut kits from HRM Laser because they more closely resemble the depots for my two main prototypes, the CNW and Milwaukee Road in the upper Midwest. I've found the kits to be easy to assemble but time consuming with great directions and drawings. Their website has lots of hints and pictures on how to do most tasks.
As others have mentioned, you do need to be carefull to paint both sides of the wooden pieces or they will warp as the paint dries(found that out the hard way). Painting parts on the wooden sprues is also definitely recommended.
The other nice part of these kits is that most include a basic interior and in many cases a removable rood which makes detailing the interior much easier to do at a later date.
The peel and stick window and trim systems take a bit to get used to but once you get he hang of it, the process goes very quickly.
The most tedious part of the process was shingling the roofs. Keeping single or 3-tab shingle strips straight and correctly lined up was time consuming. You have to let sections of the roof dry before moving on so that previously shingled parts of the roof would not move as you apply new layers.
They also offer a non-operational train order signal kit that are very inexpensive and easy to assemble. The ladder parts are delicate enought that some silver paint makes it hard tell that they are made of wood.
Trying to scratchbuild to this level of detail would take mutiples of time longer and probably cost more that twice as much in material.
I'll post some picture later today but I believe that they turned out quite nice and would highly recommend them.
Scott Sonntag
ROBERT PETRICK I found some suitable N Scale buildings produced by AMB: ... Do you know these buildings? Have you built them or any one of them? Have you pencilled in any notes in the margins of their instruction manuals? Do they even come with instructions, however thin or poorly written? ... Robert
I found some suitable N Scale buildings produced by AMB: ...
Do you know these buildings? Have you built them or any one of them? Have you pencilled in any notes in the margins of their instruction manuals? Do they even come with instructions, however thin or poorly written? ...
No Robert I have not built those. I think AMB instructions are good ones however, so just read them carefully. I check off every completed step - and sometimes the same sentence or phrase has more than one step in it.
In my article I admitted I read but failed to fully appreciate the AMB instructions for the trim at corners; how one piece of trim was slightly wider so it could overlap the other at the 90 degree corners. I botched this but was able to correct my mistake because the material from the fret can be used to create "new" pieces if need be. That is why I save all frets from all laser cut kits by the way.
The other thing I mention in the article, but not in my posting above: 3M "transfer tape" can make any piece of wood or cardstock (or styrene for that matter) into a peel and stick part. When doing the roof I find that painting the supplied peel and stick material tends to weaken the stickiness. So sometimes I "belt and suspenders" the parts with additional transfer tape in the required area. Transfer tape on the surface AND peel and stick part makes for a heck of a bond!
Laser Art Kits by Branch Line are very good.http://www.laserartstructures.com/laserart-structures/numeric-lists/list.html#HOLaserKitsThe La Salle House was the first laser kit I assembled and it was super! I highly recommend taking on laser kits, if nothing other than for the experience.That kit turned around my model railroad structure building. The simplicity of assembly turned me on to scratch building. In 30 plus years of model railroading I never thought I had it in me to scratch build anything to look good enough to put on my layout. After assembling the La Salle House I’ve really gotten into scratch building. I still buy Laser Kits but love scratch building things now. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Lakeshore Sub I've taken to laser cut kits from HRM Laser because they more closely resemble the depots for my two main prototypes, the CNW and Milwaukee Road in the upper Midwest. I've found the kits to be easy to assemble but time consuming with great directions and drawings. Their website has lots of hints and pictures on how to do most tasks. Scott Sonntag
Hey Scott-
Thanks for the info. I have never heard of HRM Laser until now, but one of the things I was hoping this thread would generate is info and links to new (or little-known) companies specializing in laser-cut scale models. I knew about N-Scale Architect and Blair Lines and American Model Builders, but that was pretty much the limit of my knowledge.
I went to the HRM website and it shows exactly the sort of photos I was looking for: not only shots of pretty much the entire contents of the box for each and every kit, but many clear closeup photos of the construction sequence from beginning to end. Nice!
Unfortunately for me is that I model N Scale, and they seem to offer only HO Scale kits. That might change in the near future, but for now I am tempted to get an HO kit just to build it and put it on the display shelf. Which helps explain why I have so much stuff in the almost finished pile . . .
ROBERT PETRICKUnfortunately for me is that I model N Scale, and they seem to offer only HO Scale kits. That might change in the near future, but for now I am tempted to get an HO kit just to build it and put it on the display shelf.
Make scans of the individual flats in a HO kit, scale the result and make any dimensional changes to make it cuttable, and laser-cut the result in suitable sheet. You might even provide a copy of the result to the kit manufacturer to facilitate their making N scale parts available. You may wind up having to make much of the structure 'from scratch' anyway but the tough part of scaling and fine cutting will be done...
Get permission first even though I can't imagine any perceived competition (yet!) in the smaller-scale space.
I have built several kits from Bar Mills Models. They have good instructions, the kits come with detail castings, and their website has instructional videos.
Scott
Overmod I am tempted to ask if you have, or can get access to, a makerspace that has a large-format scanner and a laser cutter. Make scans of the individual flats in a HO kit, scale the result and make any dimensional changes to make it cuttable, and laser-cut the result in suitable sheet. You might even provide a copy of the result to the kit manufacturer to facilitate their making N scale parts available. You may wind up having to make much of the structure 'from scratch' anyway but the tough part of scaling and fine cutting will be done... Get permission first even though I can't imagine any perceived competition (yet!) in the smaller-scale space.
I am tempted to ask if you have, or can get access to, a makerspace that has a large-format scanner and a laser cutter.
RobertSounds Great! Keep us posted on your project. As a long time CAD user I’m very interested. I found a great site https://www.antiquehomestyle.com/plans/ with nice floor plans that I draw up on my CAD then print out templates for cutting. I prefer to scratch build using basswood.I model the 1950s and the Antique Home Style site fits the bill nicely.I also use the interior walls as light blocking and individually light each room. Most homes accommodate 20 bulbs and I drive the 20 bulbs with a Arduino Random Lighting Controller to make them look lived in.
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
RR_Mel RobertSounds Great! Keep us posted on your project. As a long time CAD user I’m very interested.
RobertSounds Great! Keep us posted on your project. As a long time CAD user I’m very interested.
Hey Mel -
I know you're a long-time CAD user because I've been following your posts for a long time.
My layout needs a lot of structures, and I started this thread to explore the laser-cut sector. Some good info and leads have popped up already, but there are a few unique structures I doubt I'll be able to find in the ready-to-roll aisle. I have a very particular building in mind, and under the category of 'never too soon to start the preliminary design', we can begin. Yes, we. Us. All of us; or at least anyone of us willing to pitch in.
I hope this thread will continue to provide info on the original idea, so I will not gum it up with this diversion. I'll post the design criteria and whatnot on my Layout Build Thread. I'll try to be specific about what I'm trying to accomplish. I'll post CAD drawings as they come available and revise them on the fly in real time.
The basics:
A large elegant residence, nearly a small mansion, that is no longer occupied and currently houses a maritime museum.
Certainly antique, more likely Victorian, or even Antebellum.
Designed to be fabricated using laser-cut wood and wood products such as thin (1/32" or 1/64") smooth aircraft birch plywood, thin balsa or basswood, laser-grade MDF, particle board, chip board, or anything else currently used by the official laser-cut model manufacturers.
I'll add a post to that other thread with the particulars as soon as I can flesh out a few thoughts.
Most laser kits will be shipped with the "flats" secured in a box or bag along with other detail items. My biggest learning curve was learning how to read the instructions and determine when I should paint the parts: either separately or particially assembled.
I have kits from Raggs to Riches, Banta Modelworks, Better Than Scratch and the newest from Foggy Mountain Models' Barbose Mining. All are good kits. Some instructions are better than others and some kits assemble easier than others. Expierence will help with the assembly process.
One thing I have noticed between "budget friendly" vs "save your allowance for a year" is the thickness of the materials and the slot & tab connections. Thin sheets will require additional bracing materials to prevent wall warping. Well designed slots & tabs helps with part identification (it only fits if it is meant to be there) and wall allignments.
Below is my first laser kit from Raggs to Riches in over 30+ years waiting for the right time to build. Took me a bit over a month with a full work schedule, family, etc.
The laser kit(s) from American Model Builders has arrived. Here are a few photos and initial first impressions and observations. It has taken 16 days from order to delivery to arrive. By contrast, it took about 2 minutes for my credit card to be pinged. A tracking number was assigned the first day, and it took about two more days before the shipment was actually moving. Then it sat 'In-Transit' in the Denver postal facility for 12 days. But all that is forgotten now that the stuff is here . . .
The outer box was damaged, but there were plenty of styrofoam peanuts. The inner box is corrugated media (what civilians call cardboard) and appears to be intact and protecting the actual product.
Included are instructions for the barn and for the silo (these kits are also sold separately). The silo, the shed, and the barn are heat-sealed in plastic bags. Kinda reassuring that some pieces and parts haven't been lost due to shipping and handling.
More details and photos showing the contents of the bags (and more initial impressions) will follow shortly.
I have not built a laser cut kit in decades.
When I was in N scale, 20+ years ago, was a time way before Walthers Cornerstone building kits. Almost all N scale plastic building kits were of European prototypes, and looked out of place.
Then, in the 1990s, laser cut kits began to show up in N scale. I built probably six or eight of them, and for the time, they were amazing. Before this, I had built mainly craftsman type kits for my N scale layouts, so I had experience with wooden structures.
When I switched to HO I went to all plastic buildings, Walthers began the Cornerstone series of kits, and all was fine in the world.
For my next layout, I have collected ten or twelve laser cut wooden kits for the town of Port Annabelle. This started with the AMB lighthouse kit, and just went on from there.
I am looking forward to assembling these kits.
To answer your question, on two-decade old experience, laser kits were pretty straightforward to assemble, and they looked very good when they were done. All of mine were purchased at local hobby shops, so no shipping damage.
The kits I have collected in HO were also bought mostly at hobby shops I visited on my travels.
I still need to purchase a Weimer's Mill kit.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Following up to previous post . . .
The silo is cast in two solid pieces; and when I say solid, I mean solid. Together they weigh about a pound. Definitely not hydrocal (which I've seen used for a lot of structures), but rather some kind of plastic resin. The details are crisp and the design and style seem correct. Notice that the spacing of the steel silo hoops decreases in the lower portion (more stress in the lower regions).
The small bag contains the parts for the shed. Several of the pieces have detached themselves from the sheet. There are a bunch of little nubs (the technical equivalent to the sprues in plastic model kits) holding the pieces together into a 'flat', and it's just a well they have worked themselves loose, because I am not too excited about using even my tiny little official sprue cutters on these delicate N-scale parts.
ROBERT PETRICKThe silo is cast in two solid pieces; and when I say solid, I mean solid. Together they weigh about a pound. Definitely not hydrocal (which I've seen used for a lot of structures), but rather some kind of plastic resin. The details are crisp and the design and style seem correct.
Those castings for the silo do look very well made.
Nice!