doctorwayne Well, Kevin's drawing is a nicely-done way of showing how the loco is turned (I was having trouble trying to understand the set-up through the written descriptions), but I can't at all agree that it's in a much reduced space....you've got two turnouts and two tracks to accomplish a simple turn-around that could be done with a single turnout and a much shorter single track. Size the turntable to match your locomotive's wheelbase (not to it's over-all length) and I'd guess it would take less room than the one explained in Kevin's drawings. Wayne
Well, Kevin's drawing is a nicely-done way of showing how the loco is turned (I was having trouble trying to understand the set-up through the written descriptions), but I can't at all agree that it's in a much reduced space....you've got two turnouts and two tracks to accomplish a simple turn-around that could be done with a single turnout and a much shorter single track. Size the turntable to match your locomotive's wheelbase (not to it's over-all length) and I'd guess it would take less room than the one explained in Kevin's drawings.
Wayne
I began fiddling with this idea as a possible solution for the turntable at the end of my branchline but realized that it requires more length but saves nothing width wise. Whether using this arrangement or a conventional turntable, the bridge has to be at least as long as the longest piece of equipment. In a conventional turntable, the pit diameter is the same as the bridge. In this half moon pit, the diameter is actually going to be greater than the length of the bridge. In my case, I can get by with a 7 inch (HO) turntable but if I used the proposed TT, my pit would need to be longer. The pit floor still has to be 7 inches wide although it doesn't require the full circle on the one half.
doctorwaynebut I can't at all agree that it's in a much reduced space.
unlike america, where towns often grew around railroads, the RRs of Europe needed to find space within existing cities.
my understanding is there is no central RR station in Paris, there are separate lines that partially enter Paris with separate stations
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
SeeYou190 Colorado Ray I don't follow what Kevin says either. This is a simplified sketch of how the one in Germany is used. -Kevin
Colorado Ray I don't follow what Kevin says either.
This is a simplified sketch of how the one in Germany is used.
-Kevin
Thanks Kevin. Very good explanation. In essence the turntable functions as a leg of a wye, and does indeed allow for turning the engine In a much reduced space.
Ray
John-NYBWI didn't notice from the original picture that there was an exit track on both ends.
There was a track plan posted on page one, but it has disappeared.
I am glad my sketch made sense. Hopefully GerryD will correct anything I got wrong.
Living the dream.
OK, I stand corrected. I didn't notice from the original picture that there was an exit track on both ends. That would allow turning a loco that is going to an adjacent track.
I hadn't seen that kind of arrangement before and it is interesting. It gives me another option and I can see the space savings which in my situation would be very beneficial. I had thought of a TT with a wall only part way around the pit but would have required a full pit. This would allow a pit a little over half the diameter of the pit. Back to the drawing board.
I'm joining this discussion fairly late so the points I am going to make might already have been covered. The turntable shown in the OP is designed only to move the locos into the half roundhouse. It cannot turn a loco. For that, the bridge would have to pivot on the center so the loco can exit the bridge facing the opposite direction that it entered.
I'm debating whether to use a half pit turntable at the end of my branchline. I've seen a few examples of such turntables and they are built into a slope. The pit wall only goes a little more than halfway around but the floor of the pit has to be 360 degrees in order to allow the bridge to rotate 180 because both ends of the bridge must be supported at all times. Such a TT does not save space because its diameter must be the the length of the bridge. The TT will serve a two stall engine house and there will be no garden tracks. If I do this, it will be for visual interest only, not to save space.
gregc Colorado Ray The half turntable will NOT allow you to turn the engine around. isn't it just a way to get a loco onto the roundhouse tracks, not turn the engine?
Colorado Ray The half turntable will NOT allow you to turn the engine around.
isn't it just a way to get a loco onto the roundhouse tracks, not turn the engine?
Exactly, which is what I had said in my earlier post. It's like a giant sector plate. By itself it can't turn an engine around. I don't follow what Kevin says either. Just going through an engine house doesn't change direction unless the other side of the engine house completed a wye. If that's the case, the "turntable" functions as nothing more than a very very low number turnout.
GerryD...The idea I'm going for is that when the acquired steam engines, (MDC 2-8-0s) were in front of the passenger cars and going forward, all was well, but then when backing up trailing the passenger cars or backing up leading the passenger cars, derailments happened.
I no longer have my MDC Consolidation, but it's wheelbase is pretty close to that of my Bachmann Consolidations which is 65' (HO) or about 9".If you can't find room for a 9" turntable, you need to revise your trackplan.
I was going to add a turntable and three stall roundhouse to my layout, but discovered that the two would not fit into the spot I had chosen. In order to accommodate both, I took the roundhouse apart, changing it into a "squarehouse" (sorta), then scratchbuilt a turntable that would fit. (I had a Walthers 90' turntable on-hand, but there was not quite enough room for it).
The turntable that I built was a block of wood, with cut-up Atlas through-girder bridges cut apart and cemented to the sides of the wood. The turntable is finger-powered, and rotates on the cut-down beater-shaft of a food mixer. My 87' (HO) turntable will handle all of my steam locos.
Some pictures...
...and what became of the former roundhouse...
I'll add more photos when photobucket gets its act together.
gregcisn't it just a way to get a loco onto the roundhouse tracks, not turn the engine?
The example in Germany can turn the engine around, but onto an approach track on the other side of the turntable. Then the engine must be run back to the line.
It requires a lot more movement.
Colorado RayThe half turntable will NOT allow you to turn the engine around.
Gerry, I still don't understand what you are trying to do. The half turntable will NOT allow you to turn the engine around. At the end of the line the engine will still have to backup to go home.
Well it's a novel thing. It might fit the scheme of the layout and timeline. (Or so I think) The idea is that the turntable would be between a drop off with a mainline below and a rock cliff on the other. I'm thinking along the lines of a tourist line evolved from a branch line. Or a nearly abandoned line. Think Strasburg Rail Road in Pennsylvania. It was almost abandoned and then a group bought it and developed it from a little four when diesel to a major tourist rail road.
The idea I'm going for is that when the acquired steam engines, (MDC 2-8-0s) were in front of the passenger cars and going forward, all was well, but then when backing up trailing the passenger cars or backing up leading the passenger cars, derailments happened. So taking the idea from the Germans, they constructed this half turntable in the limited space at the end of the switchback and runaround track.
I thought of that idea long ago about the 1/4” audio jack, just never did anything with it. Thanks for reminding me though.
What I'll probably do is use a servo. Worst case, a manual turntable or a hand crank.
I look for things a little different.
Case in point the models I designed way back for MDC's Kitbash series.
( kitbash.ourpage.org )
SeeYou190 From what I see, these "Partial Turntables" Cannot turn a locomotive 180 degrees, and require an extra approach track as a run-around. -Kevin
From what I see, these "Partial Turntables" Cannot turn a locomotive 180 degrees, and require an extra approach track as a run-around.
Kevin is correct. This "turntable" is a prototype sector plate that's only useful for getting the locomotives into the shed.
If Gerry's turntable location is near the edge of his benchwork, then model only enough of a turntable pit to reach the center pivot. When the table turns, the end can swing out into the aisle. This allows for the full 180 (or 360 if you want a merry-go-round) rotation to turn the engine. This makes use of the aisle space similiar to folks that have drop down wyes in their aisles. I was watching a YouTube the other night that included this feature.
After reading through the earlier portion of this thread (with some missing photos and links), I fail to see any need for most of the discussion.You have a locomotive that needs to be turned, but don't have room for a complete turntable. While the German version, shown in one of the still remaining photos, was, I guess, quite an innovation, I think there's way too much angst over what you want to do.Instead of all this hemming and hawing, simply replace your locomotive with a smaller one, which will fit onto a smaller turntable that's completely round (and easy-to-build).
The partial turntable doesn't save space if the intent is only to turn a locomotive 180 degrees. It requires a tail track, run-around track, and two turnouts that a full turntable doesn't need.
The full diameter of the turntable would simply take up the space needed by the run-around track. No real railroad would build more, or something more complicated, than needed without good reason. Probably the roundhouse and turntable in Germany were built that way because additional property was simply not available.
I'm sorry for your loss Gerry.
The turntable is quite interesting - a way to save space in a tight environment, from what I can see. Anything is dooable I guess. You will need two sets of half-rings to support the table. Were you thinking of kitbashing an existing turntable or making one from scratch? I would not dare a such complicated project, but if I was forced to, I would go for the latter. I've read that some folks have used an audio plug (male and female) for the main axle of the table.
EDIT - here is one example:
https://www.delmarvamodelrailroadclub.org/NeatStuff/TunTable/Turntable.html
Simon
Ben a heck of a few years.
I lost my wife almost two years ago, not from COVID but the stress of it played a part in a heart attack. She died in my arms so to speak while I was administering CPR, ambulance came and they were just about useless.
But back to the turntable, everything was delayed and I'll be getting back to work on things. A picture of what I want to make is here: DRG Class 41 on Neuenmarkt turntable - Railway turntable — Wikipedia
and: https://www.google.com/maps/place/95339+Neuenmarkt,+Germany/@50.0937597,11.5814329,169m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47a19fc2851fb883:0x41db728f061e380!8m2!3d50.09418!4d11.5837281
Cordially, Gerry
rrinkerKevin - not sure what you mean, both his sketch and the one pictured from Germany turn slightly MORE than 180 degrees.
Sorry for being unclear, what I meant was turning 180 degrees and going back the way you came onto the turntable.
The whole undertaking to me seems like a solution to a problem that does not exist. If the OP can get it working and enjoys it... than it is a great idea.
I will just stick to my old reliable Bowser turntables.
Another thing the asymmetrical table offers is the ability to handle considerably longer power in a given 'width'. With a different pattern of approach tracks this might be an interesting solution for a facility like CNJ's at Mauch Chunk (before there was a Jim Thorpe) where space between cliff and river was insufficient even for radial stalls and the 'roundhouse' consisted of a ladder track with parallel stalls skewed at an angle to fit required length. This might be worked with even large power if only the 'table' had to be fit, perhaps with the 'minor diameter' actually near or in the river.
you would need separate ring rails adjacent to the pivot and on both 'radii' as the table won't balance and if rigid will have to swing on rails, only constrained laterally by the pivot pin. The same inner ring rail would 'do' for both inner 'ends' of an articulated bridge (with wheels aligned as for heavy swing bridges, perhaps) and it seems likely to me that an air or electric motor assist would be useful.
GerryDThe whole idea of this was inspired by that Silverton turntable at Corkscrew Gulch at the end of a switchback. There the problem was they did not like to extensively back the locomotives. Either because there were no wheels under the cab to help guide the locomotives or because of a steaming issue.
The Silverton Railroad turntable at Corkscrew Gultch was a full length turntable. The primary reason for the turtable was that the locomotive needed to be on the downgrade side of the train for safety when working some of the mines in the area. As you suggested, the other reason is that the 2-8-0s did not track well in reverse, especially in the snow.
GerryDIn modeling this would be hell on earth to make work.
GerryDSo, the REAL question is, is this good enough to add to an operating session. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this except for on the Corkscrew Gulch?
I have not heard of another use case similar to the SRR, nor one like you describe.
Kevin, please read the theory of operation I posted earlier on. (9 steps) And then please read the proposed history.
The operation explains the “run around” and the direction change for the engine.
It IS a strange concept, you may just not yet see the possibilities.
This is "more" than running trains in a circle. Some people like very long trains and just watching them run. A club, local to me, is like that, I didn't join. Some others will jam as much track in an area as possible. Not really my thing. Others like an operation more like a real railroad with switching, and track arrangements that depend on a hypothetical history of the railroad and constraints on scenery, mountains and rivers, maybe even car floats. Some like interchange and then there are fans of John Allen's switching nightmare.
I have an area in a basement that is about 12 feet by 12 feet. It necessitates I have an around the room layout. I will have to have a little bit of it into the next area to accommodate a loop of mainline track to hidden storage area and on the other side a loop under some stairs. In this overall space I will have to make a layout that seems to operate over several miles. This partial turntable will make the operating sessions more interesting and the distance seem greater.
I will have a WORKING cable incline to a logging area. Yes Working, I had built it up, switch tracks at top and bottom, uncoupling ramps all as an experiment and it worked just fine.
Turntables can be cantankerous, like you say, everything can be, that's part of the joy of things, making them work reliably.
I did take one thing away from your contradictory post, I will have a buffer on the turntable track to prevent runoff the "open end". LOL, Thanks for that idea!
Cordially,
Gerry
http://kitbash.ourpage.org
Tinplate Toddler The roundhouse was home to tank engines at first, with no need for them to be turned. The tank engines were later sunstituted by 2-10-0 steamers used in pushing trains up the steep incline. Those engines didn´t need to be turmed, either.
The roundhouse was home to tank engines at first, with no need for them to be turned. The tank engines were later sunstituted by 2-10-0 steamers used in pushing trains up the steep incline. Those engines didn´t need to be turmed, either.
On a steep mountain switch back it makes sense though, run firebox forward, and the crown sheet might come uncovered. That would be - bad.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The roundhouse was home to tank engines at first, with no need for them to be turned. The tank engines were later substituted by 2-10-0 steamers used in pushing trains up the steep incline. Those engines didn´t need to be turned, either.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Still would need to get the engine around the train, unless you were going to push it uphill but with the loco running forward.
Kevin - not sure what you mean, both his sketch and the one pictured from Germany turn slightly MORE than 180 degrees. The two lead tracks on the German one, next to the last stalls of the roundhouse, are more than 180 degrees apart. If the loco backs in on one, as the turntable turns, it is facing front in to each stall and finalling front out the second track. In fact it HAS to head in one track/back out the other, or vice versa. You can't turn a loco and use the same lead to go out that you came in on, because it's only half a turntable with no way to connect the short end with the lead track.
wjstixSeems to me it would be easier to replace the far left turnout with a small 'regular' turntable, so both the main and passing tracks end at the turntable.
GerryDOne of them was to install a turntable at the end of the mainline just like on that Silverton Branch through Corkscrew Gulch. This was determined to be impossible because of the creek on one side and the cliff on the other. Too much material would have to be removed from the cliff and the creek could not be re-routed.
If you rotate the turntable 180 degrees, the bridge will not be in contact with the approach track, and the locomotive would fall into the pit if moved that way.
I see no advantage to this design unless you just want an oddity on your layout. Just using a conventional turntable requires probably about the same space as the extra run-around track.
Turntables can be cantankerous enough without adding all this extra complication.