Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

partial turntable....

4871 views
52 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
partial turntable....
Posted by GerryD on Tuesday, June 16, 2020 10:08 PM

Hi there, in the planing stages, a thought for operation, inspired by the Silverton Railroad at Corkscrew Gulch (http://railroadglorydays.com/Corkscrew/) and the partial turntable at Neuenmarkt Germany. ( https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0938558,11.5819943,95m/data=!3m1!1e3 )

The Silverton had a turntable, covered at one time, at Corkscrew Gulch for the sole purpose of turning an engine so it would not have to run in reverse after a switchback.  Running in reverse seemed to be a problem with the locomotives.

Now an interesting point could be a similar turntable in a short line track plan.

To make it more interesting and borrowing from the one located in Neuenmarkt Germany, I was thinking of a part of my layout planing. A half turntable, if I can call it that, on one track just to turn the locomotive.

Operation; Entering from the uphill area, the train would take the center track, uncouple engine, back through switch to the 1/2 turntable, (it better be lined up), turn 1/2 turn and use the bottom track to run around the train, couple to the caboose, store it temporarily on the upper track, couple back to the train, take the up track then back on to the caboose, pull it off that track and back into the center track to clear the switch to the down track and then the engine, going forward, would proceed down.

I realize this is complicated, but I believe it would give an interesting twist, (or half twist, Smile ), to operation, keeping the locomotive always going forward and pulling it's train.

Comments?   (Scanned Pencil Sketch Below, I hope.)

 

Lost the image...

Link to it: http://kitbash.ourpage.org/images/neuenmarkt.jpg

Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.org

Tags: layout idea
  • Member since
    September 2010
  • 547 posts
Posted by eaglescout on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:39 AM
I have limited space on my layout and may try something similar. A full turntable takes up a lot of room. Any suggestions for cutting down a full size one I have on hand?
  • Member since
    February 2005
  • 839 posts
Posted by davidmurray on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:41 PM

You have me confused.  Surely if a section of track rotates 180 degrees, it would be capable of rotating another 180 degrees.  That is what a turntable does.  It need not have more than one track leading to/from the turning portion.  

Unless I completely miss the point.

 

David Murray from Oshawa, Ontario Canada
  • Member since
    April 2018
  • From: 53° 33′ N, 10° 0′ E
  • 2,508 posts
Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 10:11 PM

Here is your drawing:

 And here is an aerial photo of the prototype location the OP is referring to:

(From Google Maps)

The roundhouse is now home to the German Steam Locomotive Museum. The line was built in the late 1890s and sports one of the steepest inclines in all of Germany. Neuenmarkt is a typical railroad town, which grew when the railroad came in the late 1800s. There were quite a number of engines required for pusher service stationed in the good old steam days, hence the rather large engine handling facilities. The roundhouse originally had a full turntable, which was re-built to this off segmented one when more yard tracks had to be added. Apparently, that must have been the cheaper option, compared to either relocating the yard or the roundhouse.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 19,015 posts
Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 10:19 PM

There is a Japanese railway mentioned very recently in one of the Classic Trains posts (they run a replica 0-4-0, I think a Henschel, with diesel power) that has a crossover between two tracks right in the terminal with the turntable spang in the middle of the crossover.

To reverse the train, they physically push the coach over to the other track, then back the engine onto the crossover and turn it.  Since you won't be expecting a turntable there, the surprise is pretty great.

There was also a line using a VW Kombi-type Microbus to be a railbus with large flanged wheels.  This was turned as I recall with a pop-up arrangement between the rails that lifted the bus via the chassis and then allowed it to turn 180 degrees -- there is film of that, too.  

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Portland, Oregon
  • 658 posts
Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, June 18, 2020 12:11 AM

davidmurray

You have me confused.  Surely if a section of track rotates 180 degrees, it would be capable of rotating another 180 degrees.  That is what a turntable does.  It need not have more than one track leading to/from the turning portion.  

Unless I completely miss the point.

 

David,

I am confused as well.  Seems to me that whatever type or description of turntable is employed, it is used to avoid either a loop or a wye.  Where these are not options due to the real estate required, any turntable bridge that is meant to reverse the direction of a loco for discharge onto an adjacent track must rotate something approximating 170 or so degrees.  Well, as the turntable bridge pivots in the middle, the other end of the loco also moves through the same arc on the other end.  In total, that's almost an entire circle.  How is that a "half"?  "Partial", sure (like a pie with a narrow slice removed), but you've still got a footprint for the turntable that requires a full circle.  The narrow gauge photos don't seem explanatory, nor does the aerial shot of the German loco museum TT - which plainly wouldn't be able to reverse an engine in its present configuration because its swing is too restricted.

I may need a simple drawing or two.  My spatial visualization has failed - again!  Maybe Mel or someone else can fire up his 'puter and produce one. Bow

John

  • Member since
    March 2011
  • 1,398 posts
Posted by NVSRR on Thursday, June 18, 2020 1:07 AM

Don't they call those tables like the pic selector tables?   I know Europe's modelers like to use them to save space they don't have.     

shane

A pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel

A realist sees a frieght train

An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Collinwood, Ohio, USA
  • 14,442 posts
Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, June 18, 2020 1:27 AM

NVSRR
Don't they call those tables like the pic selector tables?

Seems I've heard "sector plate" in the UK for selecting tracks to the fiddle yard.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/255759.aspx

 

Cheers, Ed

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: lavale, md
  • 4,117 posts
Posted by gregc on Thursday, June 18, 2020 4:25 AM

davidmurray
You have me confused.  Surely if a section of track rotates 180 degrees, it would be capable of rotating another 180 degrees.

since it doesn't pivot in the middle of the bridge, it requires less distance on the short side of the bridge than on the longer side and saves space.   the pivot point can be closer to the mainline tracks

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • 547 posts
Posted by eaglescout on Thursday, June 18, 2020 7:21 AM
The picture clearly shows that a full circle roundhouse would eliminate 4-5 of the yard tracks. The turning bridge itself does not appear to save much room although one poster suggested if the center point was offset it would have a shorter arc.
  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Thursday, June 18, 2020 7:52 AM

 I don't know that the Colorado one was in any way limited from turning a full circle. But the one shown in the Google Earth view in Germany sure is. Look at the position it is in now, for it to turn any more counter clockwise, all that concrete between the track and the pit would have to be removed. See the small sector taken out of the concrete? That's for the short side of the turntable while the long side swings around with the edge lining up with the stall tracks. It can only spin a little over 180 degrees , just enough to reach the two tracks that run out on either side of the roundhouse.

 I was confused too just reading up on the Colorado one, then I clicked the other link and saw the image and that makes sense as a 'partial' turntable.

                                           --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    April 2018
  • From: 53° 33′ N, 10° 0′ E
  • 2,508 posts
Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, June 18, 2020 8:15 AM

Overmod
There is a Japanese railway mentioned very recently in one of the Classic Trains posts (they run a replica 0-4-0, I think a Henschel, with diesel power) that has a crossover between two tracks right in the terminal with the turntable spang in the middle of the crossover.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Thursday, June 18, 2020 3:05 PM

OK, back, a few questions;

how come I don't get notifications for replies to the topic?

and

How does one put an image in one's post, I tried but it would not take. Is it a browser thing?

There is no spell check?

Another image and more explaination I'd like to give.

Cordially,

Gerry Dombroski

http://kitbash.ourpage.org

  • Member since
    April 2018
  • From: 53° 33′ N, 10° 0′ E
  • 2,508 posts
Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, June 18, 2020 4:41 PM

NVSRR
I know Europe's modelers like to use them to save space they don't have.

Sector plates are quite common in UK, not so much on the Continent. Remember, Europe is a continent, not a country. Each of the countries on the European continent is quite different - including the way model railroading is done!

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 4,278 posts
Posted by York1 on Thursday, June 18, 2020 5:16 PM

GerryD

OK, back, a few questions;

how come I don't get notifications for replies to the topic?

and

How does one put an image in one's post, I tried but it would not take. Is it a browser thing?

There is no spell check?

Another image and more explaination I'd like to give.

Cordially,

Gerry Dombroski

http://kitbash.ourpage.org

 

 

First, welcome to the Forum!

1.  Email notifications:  Some parts of this forum don't work very well.  It is supposed to be overhauled sometime this year.

 

2.  Pictures must be hosted on a separate site.  

Here is a link to the directions for posting a photo:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/249194.aspx

 

I use imgure to post photos, but there are others that are just as good.

York1 John       

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Thursday, June 18, 2020 5:16 PM

layout idea sketch.

OK another attempt......

 

It's sort of hard a concept to visualize. Let me try again. I took the Google Maps Satellite image and rotated it roughly 180 degrees so the roundhouse “was” at the bottom.

 I edited most extraneous things out in Photoshop and with Photoshop, scanning and a #2 pencil and rescanning and labeling with Photoshop, I hope to present it better.

  1. An engine, lets say an old MDC 2-8-0 consolidation, pulls a train in from the lower track, to track #2, the engine is facing to the left.

  2. The engine is uncoupled from the train and enters the partial turntable.

  3. The turntable is rotated clockwise about 190 degrees, the engine is now facing to the right.

  4. The engine backs off the turntable and through the switch on the left end of Track #1.

  5. The switch is thrown and the engine runs forward around it's train and after the switch between Track #1 and #2 is thrown it backs onto the train to remove the caboose.

  6. The engine places the caboose on Track #1 or the Spur track.

  7. The engine then pulls ahead past the switch from track #1 to Track #2 and after the switch is aligned for track #2 it backs up to couple onto the train.

  8. The engine pulls the train onto the Upper lead and then the switch between Track 1 and 2 is thrown and the train is backed up to pick up the caboose.

  9. The engine, now facing uphill again and pulling it's train, proceeds on to the upper level.

The whole idea of this was inspired by that Silverton turntable at Corkscrew Gulch at the end of a switchback. There the problem was they did not like to extensively back the locomotives. Either because there were no wheels under the cab to help guide the locomotives or because of a steaming issue. In either case it sounded like an interesting thing to incorporate into my layout. The prototype used a slight grade to roll cars to the turntable when the direction was changed and the locomotive would pick them off one at a time. In modeling this would be hell on earth to make work.

My “re-addressed” layout, in the planing stages, will have a few switchbacks. As this area connects to the lowest level and interchange, the consolidations will be used on the trains. Other switchbacks will use shays. The original layout with a very similar plan that I had in 1978/79 was diesel powered and was before I evolved this concept.

A base of a cliff and a creek prevents a full turntable, matter of fact, I hope to have part of the partial turntable over the creek on pilings!

So, the REAL question is, is this good enough to add to an operating session. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this except for on the Corkscrew Gulch?

Cordially,

Gerry Dombroski

http://kitbash.ourpage.org

 (PS: found the problem of my image not working. I had the .htaccess turned on. OOPS! )

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Thursday, June 18, 2020 5:30 PM

Thanks John, every site is different. I hosted the image on my own domain, but I forgot I had hot-linking turned off so the image would not show up in a post. Fixed now.

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Portland, Oregon
  • 658 posts
Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, June 18, 2020 8:05 PM

Gerry,

Your drawing proves the adage that sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.  To make a bad one, I now get the "picture"!   Thanks on behalf of perhaps many for your extra effort here.  (Ulrich, your drawing did the same, but I'm embarassed to have noted it only when I went back in the string to take another peek at the Neuenmarkt Museum photo.  Hat tip to you, too.  Bow)

This particular TT design would prove quite fascinating on a layout.  Most particularly to any other model railroader that sees it (its uniqueness would likely be lost on the general public).  It would plainly require either a scratch build or a dramatic kitbash.  In either case, if you should someday do it, please take the additional steps to write up and photograph the entire process.  It would be a great offering to the hobby and many, not only on this forum, but others as well.

Best wishes,

John

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Thursday, June 18, 2020 8:25 PM

Thanks John, for the forward thoughts. But as a kitbasher, well I have a history of doing "off the wall things".  Take for example on the web page I mention in my signature. Click on the word Kitbash on the left and the page to the right will show four cars that I designed, (and have my name on the instruction sheets for three of them(, they went into production in the late 70's and 80's. The instruction sheets are on the right.

When I worked for the Govt I also did some "off the wall designs". One of the best involved designing and building some boxes that allowed a piece of computerized test equipment the Army used to output to regular printers instead of very expensive and prone to break down type printers. It had only six simple intergrated circuits in it, twenty nine cent types, and the boxes had a total of about $50 worth of parts. Still they saved the Government a little under three quarter of a million in the first year. 

I do "off the wall". LOL

Cordially,

Gerry 

http://kitbash.ourpage.org

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: lavale, md
  • 4,117 posts
Posted by gregc on Friday, June 19, 2020 5:27 AM

gotta wonder what the benefit of such a turntable is in an open area like Colorado.   why not put the regular turntable on the tail track of the siding and requiring just one track to be aligned with the TT?

i diagram shows that an asymetrical turtable could require more space (red 40%) but i'm guessing when properly designed could allow a couple extra stalls in less vertical space

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Friday, June 19, 2020 7:57 AM

Hi Greg,

well every railroad has a history. When desiging or re-designing a model railroad some thought has to be given to history.

First, let me suggest you look at; http://ouraycountyco.gov/DocumentCenter/View/8890/G-3----Corkscrew-Turntable-Properties 

In that document you will see why they had a turntable "on a main line". It's the use of 2-8-0 locomotives.

Now my, (planed), railroad's history will include a period where initially geared locomotives would have been used, then as time passed and receivership and new owners, early small diesels were acquired and used. The opportunity came to convert to or include a tourist operation. In doing so they bought a used, but refurbished pair of 2-8-0 locomotives along with some coaches. All went well until a Santa Train had a derailed engine while it was backing down the grade from that midpoint that was diagrammed. Not pretty, nothing serious, but still problematic as the only diesel capable of pulling the trains in the winter season was down for repairs. I say trains as there were more than just passenger cars that traversed the line. Freight had picked back up and the steamers were adapt at hauling freight as well as passengers from the lowest level up to the town at a much higher level.

As this railroad, in it's ownership from the period of receivership, was much like that of the Strasburg Railroad, there were many suggestions as how to solve the problem. One of them was to install a turntable at the end of the mainline just like on that Silverton Branch through Corkscrew Gulch. This was determined to be impossible because of the creek on one side and the cliff on the other. Too much material would have to be removed from the cliff and the creek could not be re-routed. One of the handful of owners then remembered the unique “turntable” installed at Neuenmarkt Germany.It possible could fit if part of the run-around track, the one closer to the creek, was altered slightly to accommodate an abbreviated turntable. After all, the diminutive consolidations they had were just about fifty five feet long.

In Germany, the turntable and roundhouse had to contend with an existing roadway and private property ownership along with existing and operating right of way. German people will not part with their land at all, especially in a city area.

I'm hoping it will provide extra running time for a locomotive and several 40' or smaller cars as well as extra operating in getting from the interchange on a lower level to a main yard and town on an upper level.

Cordially,

Gerry

http://kitbash.ourpage.org

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: lavale, md
  • 4,117 posts
Posted by gregc on Friday, June 19, 2020 9:55 AM

i tried to point out that the area occupied for the turntable is no smaller.

i think your pointing out 1) that there was room for a turntable where it is located and 2) that the asymetrical bridge allowed better alignment with the existing track.

i begining to see the benefits of this type of turntable in restricted space

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Friday, June 19, 2020 10:16 AM

You've got it Greg!, I think it will also add to the time needed to bring a train from the lower level meaning more operation.

No as to another turntable position, the main yard of this short line railroad, on the next level up, will have a turntable terminating the yard as a few European railroads had. In other words three tracks from the yard will terminate at the turntable and there will not be a roundhouse, but a two stall engine house near, but not directly off the turntable. 

This makes me wish that way back in the late 70's I had the foresight to take pictures of that little shortline I built. It was a six foot square room off a hallway in the basement. The layout was " U " shaped with only an eighteen inch by four foot area for the main yard. 

Cordially,

Gerry

http://kitbash.ourpage.org

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Mpls/St.Paul
  • 12,890 posts
Posted by wjstix on Friday, June 19, 2020 10:41 AM

Seems to me it would be easier to replace the far left turnout with a small 'regular' turntable, so both the main and passing tracks end at the turntable.

Stix
  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
  • 15,940 posts
Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, June 19, 2020 11:08 AM

From what I see, these "Partial Turntables" Cannot turn a locomotive 180 degrees, and require an extra approach track as a run-around.

If you rotate the turntable 180 degrees, the bridge will not be in contact with the approach track, and the locomotive would fall into the pit if moved that way.

I see no advantage to this design unless you just want an oddity on your layout. Just using a conventional turntable requires probably about the same space as the extra run-around track.

Turntables can be cantankerous enough without adding all this extra complication. 

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: lavale, md
  • 4,117 posts
Posted by gregc on Friday, June 19, 2020 11:31 AM

wjstix
Seems to me it would be easier to replace the far left turnout with a small 'regular' turntable, so both the main and passing tracks end at the turntable.

GerryD
One of them was to install a turntable at the end of the mainline just like on that Silverton Branch through Corkscrew Gulch. This was determined to be impossible because of the creek on one side and the cliff on the other. Too much material would have to be removed from the cliff and the creek could not be re-routed.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Friday, June 19, 2020 12:41 PM

 Still would need to get the engine around the train, unless you were going to push it uphill but with the loco running forward. 

 Kevin - not sure what you mean, both his sketch and the one pictured from Germany turn slightly MORE than 180 degrees. The two lead tracks on the German one, next to the last stalls of the roundhouse, are more than 180 degrees apart. If the loco backs in on one, as the turntable turns, it is facing front in to each stall and finalling front out the second track. In fact it HAS to head in one track/back out the other, or vice versa. You can't turn a loco and use the same lead to go out that you came in on, because it's only half a turntable with no way to connect the short end with the lead track.

                                             --Randy

                            --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    April 2018
  • From: 53° 33′ N, 10° 0′ E
  • 2,508 posts
Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Friday, June 19, 2020 2:21 PM

The roundhouse was home to tank engines at first, with no need for them to be turned. The tank engines were later substituted by 2-10-0 steamers used in pushing trains up the steep incline. Those engines didn´t need to be turned, either.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

  • Member since
    January 2020
  • 18 posts
Posted by GerryD on Friday, June 19, 2020 5:18 PM
yes, but there are restrictions in scenery and history. Gotta make it interesting. LOL
  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Friday, June 19, 2020 5:42 PM

Tinplate Toddler

The roundhouse was home to tank engines at first, with no need for them to be turned. The tank engines were later sunstituted by 2-10-0 steamers used in pushing trains up the steep incline. Those engines didn´t need to be turmed, either.

 

 On a steep mountain switch back it makes sense though, run firebox forward, and the crown sheet might come uncovered. That would be - bad.

                                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!