Thanks for that reply, Wayne. I might try some limestone dust.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain...Your application of very fine limestone "gravel" (i.e., limestone dust) interests me. Is there a hobby-related source for the purchase of limestone dust?...
Sorry for the late reply, Rich, but I attempted, over four hours-or-so last night to compose a reply, but the screen disappeared several times, and most of the rest of the time was frozen. I could get a sentence or two in, then it locked-up again. Of course, photobucket still has a few issues to improve, so I managed, at that time, to include only one photo.
Anyway, I'll show you the three grades of limestone, then, if I can continue, will fill in with some related info.
The good news is that the limestone is not a hobby product. I got mine at a local lumberyard - don't recall the price, but it wasn't outrageous, for three 50lb. bags of limestone screenings. Likely cheaper than three bags of HO scale real rock ballast. This is the stuff one would use to lay brick or concrete paver-stones.
However, running it through a seive (I used four or five, with each successive one finer than the previous) yields various useful sizes.
Here's the coarsest - good shape and colour, but likely suitable only for rock-fill in low-lying areas due to its size - the guy in the container is HO scale for comparison....
Here's the size I use as ballast...
Unfortunately, there was a lot of really fine stuff in with it, and I couldn't find a seive with a fine-enough mesh to let the dust portion through, and retain the ballast. I finally 'phoned my friend in Ohio, who had given me some ballast made from the same material, to ask how he sorted the dust from the ballast. The answer was...a spatter guard, used atop a frying pan full of bacon to keep the stove from being covered in grease...I guess you could lick it off, if you didn't have a spatter guard...after all. it's bacon!
Anyway, I quickly ran off to Canadian Tire (who'd-a-thunk-it?) and picked one up. Here's the mostly-dust portion from a bag of screenings...
The one caveat when doing this screening is to do it outdoors. Engrossed in seive management and quality control, I never noticed, as I worked in the layout room, how much dust it created in the air, and spent several days later cleaning the entire layout and layout room.
I'm pretty sure that I included some of the dust portion on the track in the lower left in the photo below, along with some real dirt (literally in powder-form), ground foam, and static grass...
I'll end this for now, before everything gets squirrely again and freezes-up.
Wayne
richhotrain doctorwayne I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust Wayne Your application of very fine limestone "gravel" (i.e., limestone dust) interests me. Is there a hobby-related source for the purchase of limestone dust? Rich
doctorwayne I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust Wayne
I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust
Your application of very fine limestone "gravel" (i.e., limestone dust) interests me. Is there a hobby-related source for the purchase of limestone dust?
https://www.makeyourown.buzz/calcium-carbonate-ground-limestone/?gclid=CjwKCAjwq832BRA5EiwACvCWsZZ6UFFJG6PTCeJ2-_tsNtUcQpbKiM-ArfdolOgero9_MPBIHK72gRoCMAQQAvD_BwE
I have no idea of the size or grade of this "dust", but it does interest me as a way to add accent to the traditional ballast for yard ballasting.
doctorwayne You're right, Rich, getting ground cover, especially ballast or dirt, level on flat, open, expanses is difficult. Sometimes I do a fairly thin application, wet it, and apply the glue... ...then come back after it's set, and add light second application to fill-in the low spots... This empty lot, destined to serve a team track... ...looked like a real mess initially... ...but after it dried (it took several days), I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust, then added some finely-ground foam and some static grass, and it turned out, I think, not too badly... Wayne
You're right, Rich, getting ground cover, especially ballast or dirt, level on flat, open, expanses is difficult. Sometimes I do a fairly thin application, wet it, and apply the glue...
...then come back after it's set, and add light second application to fill-in the low spots...
This empty lot, destined to serve a team track...
...looked like a real mess initially...
...but after it dried (it took several days), I applied more very fine limestone "gravel" (it was actually limestone dust), along with some powdered dirt, again, so fine that it could be called dust, then added some finely-ground foam and some static grass, and it turned out, I think, not too badly...
Having sprinkled the yard ballast with my fingers to create an even, level look and glued it in place, I plan to go back and add light second application to provide a finished look.
Even a yard track will look reasonably spiffy when first put in, that being said, washes using a multitude of colours will age and pollute it in a hurry. Sprinkling tile grout and other fine powders before hand also add to the affect. Tile grout makes great yard muck.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
wp8thsub I would suggest avoiding the Wodland Scenics products entirely. I don't care for how they look on industry track, and I very much dislike how they are to spread and glue compared to real rock. I haven't seen much prototype ballast that looks anything like WS brown, at least not on any industry spurs. Industry track often has much finer ballast than mainlines. It also tends to vary from place to place, so using one brand and color may be unrealistic.
I would suggest avoiding the Wodland Scenics products entirely. I don't care for how they look on industry track, and I very much dislike how they are to spread and glue compared to real rock. I haven't seen much prototype ballast that looks anything like WS brown, at least not on any industry spurs.
Industry track often has much finer ballast than mainlines. It also tends to vary from place to place, so using one brand and color may be unrealistic.
But, I'm not so sure that Woodland Scenics ballast ought to be avoided entirely, particularly when looking for some sort of material for yard ballasting where you simply need a covering over essentially a flat surface.
I have found in researching ballast that Woodland Scenics has a more extensive selection of ballast colors in their product line than does Scenic Express which offers mostly light gray and dark gray in its product line. Arizona Rock & Mineral does seem to offer more different color ballast in its product line, so maybe that is a better option than Scenic Express if you want more choice of color.
I do agree with wp8thsub that Woodland Scenics Brown is not a realistic looking color for yards. However, Woodland Scenics Dark Brown is not all that bad looking, especially if it is blended with Woodland Scenics Cinders which creates a better look of something like a dirt surface.
wp8thsub Here the industry tracks have a similar look, with the spurs blending with the sand ground cover around them and the main track and siding using other ballast (from Scenic Express) with more uniform color, plus a slightly coarser texture.
Here the industry tracks have a similar look, with the spurs blending with the sand ground cover around them and the main track and siding using other ballast (from Scenic Express) with more uniform color, plus a slightly coarser texture.
I haven't found that Scenic Express or Woodland Scenics has anything to offer in HO scale to create a believable ballasted yard. The closest that I have come is a blend of Woodland Scenics Fine Gray and Buff Ballast.
To create a level surface for the yard ballast, I have literally sprinkled the ballast over the entire yard surface with my fingers to avoid unintended mounds when simply pouring the ballast out of the bottle or spooning it on the surface. Then I heavily spray the the entire area with 70% isopropyl alcohol and apply a matte medium glue mix to secure it.
SBXI have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast?
DSC00358 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
DSC00358
The above tracks on the BNSF in Lamar, CO show variation from a gray on the main, to mostly dirt on the spurs. Fine sand can be had as play sand, paver material, or products intended for other uses at a home center, or you can dig it up yourself. It can be mixed here and there with ballast from other sources to provide variation. Note above how the basic ground cover around the tracks blends with the spurs.
Cenex-Fuel Spots by wp8thsub, on Flickr
Cenex-Fuel Spots
Rob Spangler
SBX That's good because I have a fresh bottle of WS fine grey ballast. Saves me asking my LHS to deliver one bottle (I am shielding which means that I cannot leave my apartment!).
That's good because I have a fresh bottle of WS fine grey ballast. Saves me asking my LHS to deliver one bottle (I am shielding which means that I cannot leave my apartment!).
Long Haired DavidA.K.A. David Penningtonmain man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.http://www.gmrblog.co.ukfrom the UK
SBX So where does this leave me. I have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast?
So where does this leave me. I have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast?
Initially, my own inclination was to go with a shade of brown for the yard ballast, but if you look at the photos submitted by other members or the links that have been provided in this thread, the predominant yard ballast color seems to be a shade of gray. I also noticed in the photos and links that there seems to be a tone of what I would refer to as crushed limestone, giving the gray color a tint of whitish yellow.
So, in my case, I have decided to go with Woodland Scenics Fine Gray Ballast with some Woodland Scenics Fine Buff Ballast blended in for that limestone effect.
In you case, I can only make a suggestion, but my suggestion would be some sort of shade of gray.
Hope that helps.
So where does this leave me. I have a 5' x 10" switching layout and was going to ballast with WS grey ballast. Should I replace that with WS brown ballast? See the image.
kasskaboose...does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout?
To some extent it does. Steam era yards often used cinder ballast and had a different color and texture compared to yards today. Some photos show a nearly uniform dark gray from finely textured cinders.
kasskaboose does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout?
does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout?
I like that approach also. Can some hard have a way that defines the two areas? Perhaps it depends on location, era, etc.
Not to hijack the thread, but does the color in the yard depend on the timeframe of the layout?
Pruitt My rule: Mainline ballast ends and yard ballast begins wherever you run out of one or the other.
My rule:
Mainline ballast ends and yard ballast begins wherever you run out of one or the other.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
richhotrain doctorwayne All my "yards" are staging yards, so none of the track is ballasted and the rails and ties aren't painted, either. Where tracks leave the mainline at servicing areas or to access industries, the ballast generally ends once the rails leave the mainline, as in the photos below... Yeah, that is the conclusion that I am coming to as well. In other words, don't extend the mainline ballast onto the divergent side of the turnout that is leaving the mainline except to the extent that it is needed to maintain a line of ballast parallel to the straight through route of the turnout. Rich
doctorwayne All my "yards" are staging yards, so none of the track is ballasted and the rails and ties aren't painted, either. Where tracks leave the mainline at servicing areas or to access industries, the ballast generally ends once the rails leave the mainline, as in the photos below...
All my "yards" are staging yards, so none of the track is ballasted and the rails and ties aren't painted, either.
Where tracks leave the mainline at servicing areas or to access industries, the ballast generally ends once the rails leave the mainline, as in the photos below...
Yeah, that is the conclusion that I am coming to as well. In other words, don't extend the mainline ballast onto the divergent side of the turnout that is leaving the mainline except to the extent that it is needed to maintain a line of ballast parallel to the straight through route of the turnout.
Now, I need to settle on the color of the yard ballast.
My mainlines are a 50-50 blend of Scenic Express #40 light gray/dark gray which I really like because it gives the mainlines a darker rather than a lighter look.
For the yard color and texture, I had initially tried a Woodland Scenics Fine Dark Brown with some Woodland Scenics Fine Cinders mixed in, a 3 to 1 brown to black blend. But, now, it may be too dark for my liking. I am also considering a blend of Woodland Scenics Gray and Buff. I like it, but I am wondering if it looks realistic.
If you look at the 2nd photo on page 13 of this PDF with the coaling tower, I really would like to capture that look.
https://mrv.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/Marketing/Freight%20Yard%20Design.pdf
Or, this, which looks to be mostly gray if you blow up the photo by clicking on it.
https://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-planning-operation/2020/01/basics-of-car-cards-and-waybills-for-model-railroad-operation-part-3
Or even this although it may be too bland for my liking.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/m/mrr-layouts/2289263.aspx
Any thoughts on all of this?
selectorRich, how about where the speed changes from yard to open/main. A train is obliged to enter the yard-proper at a reduced and strict speed limit, I believe.
John-NYBWThis gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks pass through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down?
It depends on the railroad in question, and how they worded Rule 93 from the Standard Code of Operating Rules.
The applicable portion of Rule 93 from the WP, "Second and inferior class, extra trains, and engines must move within yard limits at yard speed."
Notice what isn't mentioned. First Class trains are not required to move at yard speed.
That being said, a yard isnt a good place to run at track speed. Typically, speed restrictions for the main track will be found in the special instructions found in the employee time table.
I dont have the Rule book from BM or PT, but I do have the ETTs.
A specific case I found was from Portland Terminal Company Time Table No. 45, dated September 25, 1938. The maximum speed between Tower 1 (south end of Rigby Yard) and the Fore River Bridge was 40mph.
Here is the 1924 map of Rigby:
http://www.upward-concepts.com/rail/rigbyl.gif
Tower one is to the left (South) the Fore River is to the right (North) off of the map. As you can see, the mains split right down the middle of the yard.
In this case, the track structure requirements would be similar for that of a mainline.
wp8thsub richhotrain Rob, what ballast material did you use for that lighter area? Fine sand.
richhotrain Rob, what ballast material did you use for that lighter area?
Fine sand.
richhotrainRob, what ballast material did you use for that lighter area?
wjstix In some (many?) cases, the mainline tracks go around the yard, not through it, so I would think it wouldn't be unusual for the mainline to be ballasted while the yard tracks are just dirt and such. Not sure if this link to Google Maps will work, but if it does, the two tracks nearest Highway 10/61 are the joint BNSF-CP mainline tracks, which go around their railyards to the north and west along the tracks. You can see the mainline appears to have gray rock ballast while the yard tracks (this is the old Milwaukee Road hump yard) don't. https://www.google.com/maps/search/cp+rail+near+Saint+Paul,+MN/@44.9315108,-93.0260899,128m/data=!3m1!1e3
In some (many?) cases, the mainline tracks go around the yard, not through it, so I would think it wouldn't be unusual for the mainline to be ballasted while the yard tracks are just dirt and such.
Not sure if this link to Google Maps will work, but if it does, the two tracks nearest Highway 10/61 are the joint BNSF-CP mainline tracks, which go around their railyards to the north and west along the tracks. You can see the mainline appears to have gray rock ballast while the yard tracks (this is the old Milwaukee Road hump yard) don't.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/cp+rail+near+Saint+Paul,+MN/@44.9315108,-93.0260899,128m/data=!3m1!1e3
wp8thsub riogrande5761 BTW, what turnouts are you using in the top two photos? The #8 crossovers are Walthers/Shinohara, while the visible #6 is Micro Engineering.
riogrande5761 BTW, what turnouts are you using in the top two photos?
The #8 crossovers are Walthers/Shinohara, while the visible #6 is Micro Engineering.
Thanks Rob, the #8 crossover does look like a frog formed of stock rail which is consistant with Walthers/Shinohara. Micro have a cast frog if I recall.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
John-NYBW This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks base through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down?
This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks base through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down?
selector I would use a thin layer of plaster to build up between tracks, and if you're bold, between the rails of tracks. I'd tint the plaster with Burnt Umber. Then I'd liberally sprinkle the top of the groomed plaster, while its still setting up, with N Scale 'cinders'. Rich, how about where the speed changes from yard to open/main. A train is obliged to enter the yard-proper at a reduced and strict speed limit, I believe. At that point, little is needed in high ballast and finely leveled tracks that you'd have to have on the main. Once you're near the arrival/departure, and heading toward ladders, it would all be mud 'n crud.
I would use a thin layer of plaster to build up between tracks, and if you're bold, between the rails of tracks. I'd tint the plaster with Burnt Umber. Then I'd liberally sprinkle the top of the groomed plaster, while its still setting up, with N Scale 'cinders'.
Rich, how about where the speed changes from yard to open/main. A train is obliged to enter the yard-proper at a reduced and strict speed limit, I believe. At that point, little is needed in high ballast and finely leveled tracks that you'd have to have on the main. Once you're near the arrival/departure, and heading toward ladders, it would all be mud 'n crud.
This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time. When the mainline tracks pass through the yard, either on one side or down the middle if there are ladders on either side, are trains restricted to yard speed limits, or can they pass through without slowing down?
wp8thsub Flickr is finally behaving again so I can post layout photos. Lakeview Service 1 by wp8thsub, on Flickr At the east end of my Lakeview yard, the mainline ballast blends with the rest somewhere around the turnouts. The transition occurs within the crossover into the yard in the foreground, and farther down the industry spur behind it.
Flickr is finally behaving again so I can post layout photos.
Lakeview Service 1
by wp8thsub, on Flickr
At the east end of my Lakeview yard, the mainline ballast blends with the rest somewhere around the turnouts. The transition occurs within the crossover into the yard in the foreground, and farther down the industry spur behind it.
wrench567 Rich The safety factor would come into play. Places with foot traffic would be cleared of tripping hazards, meaning no rocks. If the diverging switches were hand thrown then a clear path would be needed. Asphalt and concrete in yards are the modern day norms. Steam days cinder and ash around walking paths were common. Slag from the steel mills also could be found. Mills would give it away on a come and take it deal. My uncle who worked at USS used a small front shovel to load cars (hopper, gons, and even flats.) For the railroads to haul away. Back in the sixties my garage floor and driveway was cinder. Just don't fall on it. The stuff really cut you up good. Then again the dirt road was spayed with that pungent oil two or more times a year. No wonder we all have cancer now. Pete
The safety factor would come into play. Places with foot traffic would be cleared of tripping hazards, meaning no rocks. If the diverging switches were hand thrown then a clear path would be needed. Asphalt and concrete in yards are the modern day norms. Steam days cinder and ash around walking paths were common. Slag from the steel mills also could be found. Mills would give it away on a come and take it deal. My uncle who worked at USS used a small front shovel to load cars (hopper, gons, and even flats.) For the railroads to haul away. Back in the sixties my garage floor and driveway was cinder. Just don't fall on it. The stuff really cut you up good. Then again the dirt road was spayed with that pungent oil two or more times a year. No wonder we all have cancer now.
Pete
riogrande5761BTW, what turnouts are you using in the top two photos?