dknelsonWell thank you Kevin, not being a follower of popular culture I was unaware of this fine song and it has been around nearly 20 years.
All OK. That song was never popular!
Relient K is a Christian Rock Band, but they are just punky enough to be welcome on the Van's Warped Tour and are a lot of fun. They are easily one of the twenty most fun bands to see live.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Marc_MagnusWork on the layout will begun probably this winter.
Marc, I hope you are able to post a lot of pictures. Your plans sound great.
I don't thing I'll live long enough to ever finish a layout that size!
York1 John
My wish list, well I'm in trouble since my room is 45' x26' and I will use it for a N scale layout ( full of ), yes I have a near 1220' square room! The room has a parallelogram form, one side is 28' and the other is 24.5', the lenght is 45'
The ongoing track plan yet not fisnished includes severals features.
First it's a single deck layout, for the most a single track mainline.
The design is walkaround, the main doubling on itself but in a special design, the main include one main big yard and three or four smaller one, three interchange with small staging yard; the main is a point to point with staging yard at each end including a return loop.
The walkaround is designed with two big peninsula in the middle of the room.
The Maclauriver line is a parallel line of the N&W; she start next Norfolk and end at Cincinati and follow the Maclauriver and go through the Virginia ccoal fields
Main line is estimated between 550 feet to 700 feet, following some design not completely defined yet, no scene deeper than 2.5'
The main has, like I say, a special feature, its a single main line which double on itself, but like divided in two; there is a starting point at the town of Corinnesburgh, there one part of the main is going up with a gentle 2.5% maximum grade, but from this starting point the rest of the main is going down with a gentle 1.8% maximum down grade, this part feature an along river line, the Maclauriver, on the edge of the layout.
Between the lowest point of the main and the highest, I will have around 2.5 feet of elevation, naturaly gained in a small grade.
The river will feature some port allowing me to model some ships and the upper part of the main is a coal country line with numerous mine but also little local industries.
Corinnesburgh is in the midden of line where the two half of line begun, this town also is next the biggest yard of the sytem ( a 13 track ladder yard); the line end at Port allen for the river run which is just ( fictitious) next of Norfolk and the upper town of Ellezelleburgh ( from the town where I lived in belgium) next of Cincinati.
N&W use by agreement he Maclau river line when traffic is surcharged on the N&W lines, there are two interchange with the N&W at Port allen and at Linwood.
Work on the layout will begun probably this winter.
Well If I could build a dream layout
I would end up with a bowl of spaggetie track and mixed nation trains called Amozland not a model railroad
I would want a rail network consisting of yards stations some the model rail interpritation and some the real rail interpritation I would want industries to switch.
And as many miles of track as I could get in some of which would have to be hidden so it did not look like a spagettie bowl, and I would have to choose which nations scenery to build for some consistency on the whole thing.
Not very model railroad like I know, the problem is all those interesting and different looking trains out there
regards John
I have the oddball house. It has the extra course of block, but there is no ductwork, nor would there ever be. Just plumbing lines, as the heat is hot water, and being a ranch built when not every house was built with central air, that was added on later and the air handler and all ductwork are in the attic above the main floor. So I'm not sure why they made the basement ceiling extra high, but it meant I could go under the support beam with the drop ceiling and STILL be at about 7 1/2 feet.
Granted this has been a rather mild winter, but the heat in the basement has been shut off since early November and it's never gotten cold down there. All I have to do it put the thermostat back on the wall, but I got talked into another project that needed the drywall anchors I needed to mount the thermostat/ Insulating the walls, plus the heat given off by the furnace and water heater, seem to be sufficient though. According to a sensor I set up down there, it's been holding at 38% humidity and about 67 degrees.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Well thank you Kevin, not being a follower of popular culture I was unaware of this fine song and it has been around nearly 20 years.
Al Capp would be proud. Maybe.
Dave Nelson
dknelson I do believe that even in our enlightened age there are still "Sadie Hawkins Day" dances where it is the girl's job to invite the boy.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...And yes, building a good environment for the layout is important.
Definitely! A relatively constant temperature and humidity year round, good lighting and adequate electrical service, along with a finished room that's dust-free will be a great benefit. It can pretty-well eliminate track cleaning, too.
Wayne
Well true, most unfinished basements only have the code minimum regarding electric.
But generally speaking there is plenty of power/room in the panel for even the most intense expansion a model layout could require.
And while practices vary from region to region, electrical panels are commonly located in the basement, making expansion prior to other finish work easy.
Here in the Mid Atlantic, those two extra courses of block have become standard for most builders, as those who are finishing basements into living space prefer not to have bulkheads around ductwork.
My new basement, built in 1964 does not have extra depth, but it does not have ductwork either.
Our heat is hot water baseboard, pipes neatly up in the floor joists for the most part.
A/C duct work in the attic of our rancher where it belongs........
And yes, building a good environment for the layout is important.
Sheldon
dknelsonFew basements have enough electrical service for a good sized layout.
When we built our current home, our 60' x 34' basement had six ceiling outlets, each holding a 60 watt incandescent bulb. No wall outlets except for ones already in use for the sump pump, ejector pump, and furnace. The six ceiling outlets were spread across 60' x 34' and controlled by one 15 amp circuit.
Fortunately, we started out with an unfinished basement, so it was up to me to design my own electrical plan.
Rich
Alton Junction
From time to time Model Railroader and perhaps other magazines would reprint the "Givens and Druthers" form that John Armstrong would sent to his paying customers who wanted a layout design. Maybe someone knows if that form is available somewhere here on this website? Asking people about their ideas for a dream layout is essentially getting THEIR list of givens and druthers -- their dreams -- but as you can quickly see, that list is not something all agree on or share.
So my advice relates more to the room and the basement. I guess these are my dreams also, but I think at least most of my points are more broadly shared. If not we'll soon hear about it!
Tall ceilings with good overhead lighting -- what's good enough for a rec room or TV lounge is not the same. Few basements have enough electrical service for a good sized layout. And HVAC ductwork that does not lower the height or create clearance issues for the tall. Those modelers I know who built new insisted on two extra courses of concrete block wall. This is almost "free" at that stage I am told.
One nice thing some guys have added (and there is no way I'd tackle the wiring myself) is for the ENTIRE layout, all outlets, lighting, power sources, sound if any, the whole thing, that can be turned off with ONE switch, which has a light indicating whether it is on or off. And that won't be your standard 15 watt rating switch either I suspect. A dedicated circuit breaker box isn't such a bad idea either.
Comfort issues. HVAC and if needed, dehumidifiers and space heaters if furnace heat is not adequate. Is there a bathroom with, um, facilities for guests? Storage for trains, books, collections, that sort of stuff. A floor that isn't torture to stand on. Operating session guys often have a crew lounge with sofas, library, fridge for drinks.
Where is the drainage? Where would a flood do damage?
Where are the appliances and utilities, water meters, gas meters. I have seen wonderful layouts where the owner/designer must have assumed (wrongly) that this sump pump, or that hot water heater, would outlast the layout. Jim Hediger had to tear down his wonderful layout when his municipality changed how water/sewer was supplied to his house!
If you are thinking of backdrops and coved corners, now is the time to think about that.
Are there windows? Can they be covered with backdrop or are they essential for zoning reasons (such as if there is a guest bedroom in the basement)? Or are they desireable for ventilation (recall the articles about painting track that start with "work in a well ventilated room ....").
Will there be a dedicated door to the basement so train guests don't have to traipse through the house? Is there an emergency exit? Are there exit lights that come on in event of a power outage or fire? Fire suppression is its own issue.
The workshop is where? Can it be separated from layout to control dust etc. Paint booth, vented outside, is where? (Precautions about having it near open flames such as pilotlights, gas furnace or hot water heater, or basement kitchen.
None of this has anything to do with the layout. But the ideal layout exists in the ideal setting and environment.
PS This is not necessary for the more "seasoned" of us, but John Armstrong's famous Givens and Druthers form might need some explaining. Givens of course refer to must-haves. Druthers are "nice to haves" and druthers takes its name from a once-famous comic strip that many newspapers carried, Al Capp's "L'il Abner" with its population of illiterate hillbillies in Dogpatch USA. His efforts to capture the sound of "mountain" talk had the main character, L'il Abner Yokem, say things like "Ef'n ah had muh druthers, ah'd druther have pokechops fuh breakfuss, pokechops fuh lunch, 'n pokechops fuh dinnuh." So the mountain translation of "I'd rather ,,," becomes "druther" and a bunch of things you'd rather have became "druthers." When Armstrong created his Givens and Druthers form everybody knew the comic strip and everybody knew this. The comic strip ended in 1977 but by that time many papers had dropped it due to Capp's politics.
But the strip added many words and phrases to our vocabulary and I do believe that even in our enlightened age there are still "Sadie Hawkins Day" dances where it is the girl's job to invite the boy.
DN
Well, if we are talking dream layouts, I actually had the chance to build mine when I was 21 years old. It was N scale, and occupied a huge purpose built room on the second floor of our house. In addition to the layout room, there was a staging room, a 200 square foot workshop, lounge, and CTC room.
One penninsula had a 48" radius U-turn. This was solely for photography purposes.
It was about a 150 foot run from one end to the other. One end was a subdivision terminal. It went through two more towns, then into staging. You could only see one town at a time.
All double track mainline, 50 car trains, pure N scale happiness.
Losing that house and layout was emotional for me, but I got an experience most model railroaders do not. I had the chance to build a dream layout.
So... my dreams changed over the next 30 years.
I no longer want:
1) Long Mainline Runs
2) 40 car length trains
3) CTC or dispatching
4) More than one operator (Me)
My next layout will have all my wants checked off, I guess it is a new dream layout. If I had more room, I am pretty certain I would use it all to increase the physical distance between Centerville and Port Annabelle just to give the trains space to run.
you might consider Tony Koesters new layout and his book. His new layout has staging and yards are each end connected with mostly single track that goes 2 1/2 times around the room
many of use would be happy with staging as a source of trains for our layouts that eventually return to staging. Some would be lucky to have staging at both ends of the layout, possibly stacked over one another, allowing different trains to pass thru the layout in both directions. With more room a yard might be possible.
Tony had a great group of model railroaders to discuss the design of this railroad as well as help him decide to tear down is old layout and build the new one.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I consider my layout small, total benchwork is about 52 sq.ft., continuous main line, about 48' long, and it suites me just fine. You can tour it on my YT.
I was able to get the scenery completed to a point where the layout is 95% done? (are they ever "done"?) in about 3 years. Now it's just details, details, details, one scene at a time.
At one time, I too wanted a massive room filling layout. I'm glad I built what I did.
If I ever added on, it would be for staging.
Mike.
My You Tube
Let me add this thought. A lot of guys with smaller layouts wish that their layouts were bigger. On the other hand, for some of us with larger layouts, we often wish that they were smaller. Sometimes it is best to pick a happy medium.
Plan ahead and leave plenty of space (vertically as well horizintally) for ravines, water, bridges, mountains...Those important to me...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And again, size is not the measure of layout quality, but it is sometimes directly linked to the specific goals of the builder. For me that is long trains and expansive deep scenery. My 1500 sq ft is in many cases consumed by 4' wide aisles and 4' deep scenes. So, it is likely with a 2' shelf approach, 30 " curves, and 30" aisles, you could build my track plan in 700 sq ft. or less.......... Sheldon
And again, size is not the measure of layout quality, but it is sometimes directly linked to the specific goals of the builder.
For me that is long trains and expansive deep scenery. My 1500 sq ft is in many cases consumed by 4' wide aisles and 4' deep scenes. So, it is likely with a 2' shelf approach, 30 " curves, and 30" aisles, you could build my track plan in 700 sq ft. or less..........
Glad that someone brought this up. I like short trains because I like short line/ branch line operations. Having said that, if I had more space, I would want probably 15 to 18 car trains rather than the 7 to 10 car trains that I think look better in my 20 x 20 U shaped shelf layout.
Having a huge layout with plenty of space between "towns" or switching areas would take forever to traverse at branch line speeds of 20 mph. I've tried that. Too much distance at that slow of speed is fairly boring. Distances have to be compressed to keep things interesting. So for me, my dream layout really doesn't involve the concept of bigger is better. In a certain respect, it makes things worse.
- Douglas
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Jim, I guess we are all different, but I'm almost 63 and I don't see building the benchwork for my new layout as any kind of physical challenge? Admittedly, I still do carpentry nearly every day for a living. Not framing houses so much, but trim carpentry, kitchens, etc. Yes. Bingo. You've been doing carpentry for a living for many years; I'm an amateur and have very little experience of this sort. Night and day difference. So really it should go without saying that it comes easy to you and comment is not needed or beneficial. One thing I've notice over the years is that often, people who are really really good at something or have many years of experience, can have a difficult time understanding or empathising with those who struggle or don't have a natural aptitude and/or benefit of all that experience. Comments sometimes are made by the experienced or gifted that come across as condescending, perhaps without awareness, but they are heard and can have still a negative effect others. (for those who have ears to hear anyway) When we were house shopping, we looked at a couple houses with 2500 sq ft basements.......but other things about them were not acceptable. With that much space I simply would have been inclined to make aisles wider and scenery deeper more so than make the trackage aspect of the layout bigger or more complex. Sheldon As I noted earlier, not all have the means to afford generous layout spaces. When my wife and I were house hunting a few years ago, we had to keep looking further and further afield to find an affordable home with a space for a layout and other features we wanted. What we found was the best we could do. I could be envious of the big layouts others may be able to build but as the apostle Paul commented, he learned to be content with little and in plenty. For me, for whatever reasons, I have had to be content with little or no layout space for years, so what I have been blessed with presently is appreciated. Sure, I'd like a couple more feet so things would be a little less cramped and curves would be a little more broad, but it's still pretty good. By world standards, actually quite good. I have little to complain about really. Good luck to the OP. You have the challenge now of designing a layout in good sized space. By the original comments, it's clear that it a boon!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Jim, I guess we are all different, but I'm almost 63 and I don't see building the benchwork for my new layout as any kind of physical challenge? Admittedly, I still do carpentry nearly every day for a living. Not framing houses so much, but trim carpentry, kitchens, etc.
Jim, I guess we are all different, but I'm almost 63 and I don't see building the benchwork for my new layout as any kind of physical challenge? Admittedly, I still do carpentry nearly every day for a living. Not framing houses so much, but trim carpentry, kitchens, etc.
Yes. Bingo. You've been doing carpentry for a living for many years; I'm an amateur and have very little experience of this sort. Night and day difference. So really it should go without saying that it comes easy to you and comment is not needed or beneficial. One thing I've notice over the years is that often, people who are really really good at something or have many years of experience, can have a difficult time understanding or empathising with those who struggle or don't have a natural aptitude and/or benefit of all that experience. Comments sometimes are made by the experienced or gifted that come across as condescending, perhaps without awareness, but they are heard and can have still a negative effect others. (for those who have ears to hear anyway)
When we were house shopping, we looked at a couple houses with 2500 sq ft basements.......but other things about them were not acceptable. With that much space I simply would have been inclined to make aisles wider and scenery deeper more so than make the trackage aspect of the layout bigger or more complex. Sheldon
As I noted earlier, not all have the means to afford generous layout spaces. When my wife and I were house hunting a few years ago, we had to keep looking further and further afield to find an affordable home with a space for a layout and other features we wanted. What we found was the best we could do. I could be envious of the big layouts others may be able to build but as the apostle Paul commented, he learned to be content with little and in plenty. For me, for whatever reasons, I have had to be content with little or no layout space for years, so what I have been blessed with presently is appreciated. Sure, I'd like a couple more feet so things would be a little less cramped and curves would be a little more broad, but it's still pretty good. By world standards, actually quite good. I have little to complain about really.
Good luck to the OP. You have the challenge now of designing a layout in good sized space. By the original comments, it's clear that it a boon!
Jim,
Sorry, I did not fully realize how that might come across, my whole life has been work that is both physically and mentally demanding. But challenging and taxing as it might have been, again, you did an excellent job based on you photos, on this layout and your previous one.
I spent the first 17 years of my adult life raising three kids in a row house, I get it.
I did a lot of my modeling at a club in those days.
And yes, in the last 26 years we have been blessed with fruits of our hard work, and some good fortune. But my life is not without challenges or limitations, things not for discussion here. We all make choices about what we do, where we live, where we work.
The OP made it clear he has 1200 sq ft, I am offering my experiance as someone who has designed and built layouts that size, for myself and helping others.
And, it is all relative. Because, except for the virus, I could pick up the phone and arrange to take you to see a list of home layouts much bigger than my proposed new layout, as well as a longer list similar in size to mine, all within an hour of you and me.
So while my 1500 sq ft space, or the OP's 1200 sq ft space, may seem very large to some, to others it is just "average".
5150WS6Also lots of trees, lots of forest.
are you into scenery or operation?
you might be interested in the looks of Bruce Chubbs layout
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When we were house shopping, we looked at a couple houses with 2500 sq ft basements.......but other things about them were not acceptable. With that much space I simply would have been inclined to make aisles wider and scenery deeper more so than make the trackage aspect of the layout bigger or more complex.
When we were house shopping, we looked at a couple houses with 2500 sq ft basements.......but other things about them were not acceptable. With that much space I simply would have been inclined to make aisles wider and scenery deeper more so than make the trackage aspect of the layout bigger or more complex.
By the way, I agree, Sheldon, that 36" radius curves should be sufficient on a larger HO layout.
riogrande5761 Twelve hundred sq ft is no aircraft hanger for sure, but to some less fortunate, it's a pretty generous space. As often, it's relative to ones status and standard of living. For example, 1200 sq ft could be a 30x40' room, a 24x50' or 20x60'. I'd be very happy with that "sounds like a lot" space and not being a spring chicken, would find it challenging to build a layout filling that space. As it is, my paultry ~ 550 sq ft is going to be plenty of work. Granted, it's a little cramped but like many, we make-do. I often dream about how I would like just a couple more feet in each direction, but I don't. As much as I'd like a 24x50' space, it's a lot of work for these bones to build benchwork and the rest for a space of that size. I agree regarding the proposed curve radius and turnouts. While 48" minimum radius and #12 turnouts sound great, they will eat 1200 sq ft for lunch. Those would fit but the length of mainline etc. would suffer vs. using 36" minumum curves and #8 mainline turnouts. If you can cut your minimums to 36" and #8, you should be able to fit much more operation in the space. Keep in mind that you can probably fit broader curves in many places, but for turn-backs or some areas, the 36" radius will allow more sections of longer running and decent aisle widths. In my rather small basement space, I had to make some compromises to get some longer running and minimum radius is 32" for a couple of spots to make it fit. That said, I've been able to design in some larger radii in places.
Twelve hundred sq ft is no aircraft hanger for sure, but to some less fortunate, it's a pretty generous space. As often, it's relative to ones status and standard of living.
For example, 1200 sq ft could be a 30x40' room, a 24x50' or 20x60'. I'd be very happy with that "sounds like a lot" space and not being a spring chicken, would find it challenging to build a layout filling that space. As it is, my paultry ~ 550 sq ft is going to be plenty of work. Granted, it's a little cramped but like many, we make-do. I often dream about how I would like just a couple more feet in each direction, but I don't. As much as I'd like a 24x50' space, it's a lot of work for these bones to build benchwork and the rest for a space of that size.
I agree regarding the proposed curve radius and turnouts. While 48" minimum radius and #12 turnouts sound great, they will eat 1200 sq ft for lunch. Those would fit but the length of mainline etc. would suffer vs. using 36" minumum curves and #8 mainline turnouts.
If you can cut your minimums to 36" and #8, you should be able to fit much more operation in the space. Keep in mind that you can probably fit broader curves in many places, but for turn-backs or some areas, the 36" radius will allow more sections of longer running and decent aisle widths.
In my rather small basement space, I had to make some compromises to get some longer running and minimum radius is 32" for a couple of spots to make it fit. That said, I've been able to design in some larger radii in places.
Well we have all warned the OP that 48" radius is too big for that space......
My new layout plan has some multi track concentric curves that get my 36" minimum up to 46", and yes that is a space hog. And I have a few spots where I will do cosmetic curves in the 48" range for minor changes in direction.
But 36" minimum for the mainline and #8 and #6 turnouts are good working standards for most layouts in this size range.
I considered my old 1000 sq ft layout room the minimum for my layout goals, so I am much happier with the new larger space. That said, I'm not sure I would need or want to go any larger than the 1500 st ft I have now.
riogrande5761 Twelve hundred sq ft is no aircraft hanger for sure, but to some less fortunate, it's a pretty generous space. As often, it's relative to ones status and standard of living. For example, 1200 sq ft could be a 30x40' room, a 24x50' or 20x60'. I'd be very happy with that "sounds like a lot" space and not being a spring chicken, would find it challenging to build a layout filling that space.
For example, 1200 sq ft could be a 30x40' room, a 24x50' or 20x60'. I'd be very happy with that "sounds like a lot" space and not being a spring chicken, would find it challenging to build a layout filling that space.
When I built my layout, I kept track of time and progress. Basically, I started from nothing, used purchased turnouts and flex track, and I did scenery in sections. I found that it took me about a month to do a square foot.
This included structure kits and rolling stock kits, but also wiring for structure lighting, crossing signals and so on.
That's an all-inclusive month, work, food, sleeping, coaching sports, playing sports and so on. I didn't miss out on life, but that time was well used.
Think about your time and what you expect to accomplish. The original 60 square feet of my layout took 5 years.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
See my reply int he turnout thread. 48" radius will eat that space in no time. And #12 turnouts even faster - not to mention they are WAY overkill with 48" radius curves.
1200 sq ft SOUNDS like a lot - it's not that much. If my garage was alongside my house instead of under it, my basement would be over 1200 sq ft - basically the same as my house. I'm doing double deck to get what I want in my available space.
Unless you are doing N scale. 1200 sq ft is quite large for N scale, but then 48" minimum radius is REALLY overkill.
I would start making some sketches - use a compass to draw circles so you don;t cheat on the radius, and get dimensional information for the turnouts - you can get the dimensions on the Fast Tracks templates since you are interested in using their turnouts. You will see how fast that 1200 sq ft space gets eaten up with 48" radius curves and #12 turnouts. That's EIGHT FEET center to center on a loop of track, so you need at least 9 feet width for a turnback. If you have a CAD program, draw the outline of the space, then draw some circles at your radius and drag them around and see how it all fits (or doesn't).
What are the actual dimensions of the 1200 sq ft space? That is a big space, but I agree with Sheldon that it is not as big as you might think it is.
Not bragging, but I have a 1950 sq ft basement with roughly 1/3 of it devoted to the layout. Pretty big but I still work with some constraints, mainly the absence of staging areas.
Mister Beasley mentioned staging 5 times in his reply, while you didn't mention staging once. Whatever else you do, be sure to add staging and plenty of it.
5150WS6That being said, what would you guys want or do for your dream layout?
Hi Mike!
You are lucky to have that generous a space to work with. If I were you, I'd be trying to accomplish the following:
1. Large radii curves with easements.
2. Long spurs and sidings for your major industries. They should be able to accommodate all of the cars being delivered to the industry without having to leave any cars on the main, and there should be room enough within the spurs to allow for switching without having to foul the mainline. Note that this only applies to major industries where you might be handling unit trains or large numbers of cars. Having other smaller spurs for one or two car drop offs is fine.
3. In line with #2, if you are going to have multiple operators, design your sidings as switching puzzles so that an individual operator can spend an hour or two sorting cars without having to use the mainline. Fouling the mainline complicates operations. Some people want to avoid that, whereas others find it to be an interesting addition to the challenge of operating. I'm of the former belief.
4. Keep things within reach! This advice is as old as the hills but it is nonetheless valid. Having to climb on top of the layout to rerail a train is just plain bad.
5. Get 3rd PlanIt! it will make designing and building your layout much easier! If you want some examples of how useful it has been for me, please ask.
https://www.trackplanning.com/
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
If I had the time and money for a bigger layout area, my only change would be to increase the mileage between towns to at least 5 or 6 HO scale miles. There are eight towns on the layout, so the additional track would require somewhere between 2100 and just over 2500 linear feet in total and it wouldn't be running around the room multiple times, either.
Otherwise, it's pretty-much exactly as I wanted it.