rrinkerNeither would the other style, there's nothing to attach them to
You could glue a 1.5" x 5" piece of plywood below your horizontal on the edge of the 2x4 for the braces to sit on. Attach them with 3.5" #10 screws and they'll be plenty strong.
rrinker I could do like I posted a mockup rendering of in the other thread, which was to have the plywood pieces about 5" tall at the attachment end, with an angle/curve to the 3" width.
This is a good idea. You could even reinforce them with the 5" corner braces above. Cut 8" x 24" pieces of plywood, then make a diagonal cut from the 5" make on one end to the 3" mark on the other. This gives you two pieces with no wasted plywood.
rrinkerI can always add another block of 2x4 stacked up on the existing one to extend the attachment area another 1.5". But since that wouldonly be screwed to the existing block and not all the way through to the vertical, it would be of limited value.
This is also not a bad idea. You can get lag screws 8" long. This would get you all the way into the stud.
One more idea from Tony Koester's book (I think) - he talks about a guy that used framing squares as corner braces.
And... I don't think you'll have an issue with crushing the drywall with 2x4's as long as you're using.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hey Randy-
What some posters have tried to say is that you need what is called a moment connection. To keep the front edge of the cantilever beams from sagging.
Using your photos from a while ago, you can add a steel angle to beef them up without increasing the depth of the upper deck.
Either the one posted by Carl425 or one like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-in-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace-15212/202585414
The flat one that carl mentioned would go on both sides of the upright and on both sides of the beam. The one in the link I added would go on the back of the upright and on the top of the beam.
I don't have access to AutoCAD at the moment, so I can't show a quick sketch.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
The whole idea is to avoid anything that will keep the backdrop from attaching flat to the studs. Or I could just get metal shelf brackets and screw them to the wall. ANd then notch the backdrop every 16" to go around them like Tony Koester ended up doing. And adding yet another furring strip to stand the backdrop off isn't an option. Using 2z4s for the verticals is already reducing the width by more than I was originally planning for where I was going to use metal brackets to attach the hotizontal to the riser.
The flat angles won't work, the plywood horizontals are attached to the outside of the 2x4. Neither would the other style, there's nothing to attach them to - plus the horizontal part would be going into the end grain of plywood.
I could do like I posted a mockup rendering of in the other thread, which was to have the plywood pieces about 5" tall at the attachment end, with an angle/curve to the 3" width. So make L shaped plywood pieces. That means careful saber saw cutting of each horizontal piece and a lot of wasted plywood.
I will heep stressing the piece I made. But I still think it's more likely that excess weight will pull the screws out of the wall than actually cause the plywood to break off the 2x4. Or crush the drywall, making the vertical loose on the wall. There is significant attachment area - this is not just stip of plywood screwed to the side of a 2x4. I can always add another block of 2x4 stacked up on the existing one to extend the attachment area another 1.5". But since that wouldonly be screwed to the existing block and not all the way through to the vertical, it would be of limited value.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy answer to the upper deck support would involve steel........
I used welded steel brackets for the support of the partial second level of my layout. I payed for the material, and my late brother-in-law cut and welded them to meet my specifications.
They were installed on the face of the drywall, and lag-bolted to the wall studs. I have been atop one section of it to brush-paint rail (it's about 38" deep).
Some of the brackets are about 4' apart, while others are close to 6' apart. The upper deck is 5/8" t&g plywood, on open grid framework - 1"x4" crossmembers on the ends of each section, and 1"x4" along the aisle, with the rear- and intermediate-crossmembers all 1"x2".
With the exception of the bracket at the corner, all of the verticals bolted to the wall are 1.5"x1.5"x 7.25" long, while the crossmembers are 1"x1" and as long as the depth of the layout which they support.
Here are the brackets supporting the upper level on the right-side of the entrance aisleway...
The far end of the open grid is bolted directly to the wall studs, with the distant bracket about 7' further into the room. The one in the foreground, about 6' from the other one, is a compound one, mounted on an outside corner of the room, with a horizontal arm in each direction. The layout here is about 25" deep, and the vertical member bolted to the corner is about 26" long, hidden behind the curved Masonite backdrop. Here's a view if the compound bracket...
The three supports shown here are about 4' apart...
...as are these, on the opposite side of the same aisle...
At the end of this aisle is a section about 9' long and, as mention earlier, about 38" deep. It has no supporting brackets, but is screwed to the wall studs at both ends and along its rear edge. The front edge, where it abuts the bracket-supported sections, is screwed to those sections too. That's the part on which I lay in order to paint the rails of a large curve, well towards the backdrop.
If the wooden brackets that Randy's planning to use are to be screwed to the side of the wall studs, rather than the face, then weld steel ones could be mounted in the same manner, which would avoid have the brackets on the backdrop, as is the case with mine. Depending on the construction of the sections being supported, it certainly wouldn't require brackets on every stud - I'd space them every 4', although I'm pretty sure that if the layout grid is sturdy, 6' (or more) would probably be do-able.
The materials aren't all that expensive, and if the majority of the brackets are similar, I can't imagine that the welding would cost would be prohibitive, either.
Perhaps another option to consider.
Wayne
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825 I've tried those, but I like these on the sides of the 2x4 better. Go up on one side and down on the other.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
I've tried those, but I like these on the sides of the 2x4 better. Go up on one side and down on the other.
Agreed, that is a good solution as well.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
Randy,
I did upper deck brackets for friend and attached them directly to the studs with no drywall in place like you described.
But we made the plywood L shaped with a very tight radius inside the L. That is way different from a connection like you are doing.
I would at least put something like this on the bottom:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
Someone here has some the same thing, and had a layout up for some time now. This exact thing is actually in the Koester multi-deck benchwork book - though with one difference, that person build theirs before putting drywall on the walls, so the tie in is to the actual wall stud, not a separate 2x4. Jason SHron has done it using those right angle brackets that I found were most definitely too wobbly, though every 4 feet he does use an oversize plywood bracket, still no diagonal braces though. Upper deck it seems he used shelf breackets sideways - also something I tried and the individual joist was way too wobbly. ANd no diagonals.
WHen I originally put together the test piece, the joists were 4 feet long. Hard to tell, as I should have put the attachment poitn more int he middle of the vertical 2x4 so I could support it better to test, but even at 4 feetout there was no perceptible movement putting a lot of weight on it. Cut back to 2 feet and I can't make it budge. If I had a way to get foces in the right direction with some way to measure said force, I'd love to test it to destruction.
I'm already beyond what I think is reaosnable incorporating 2x4s in a model railroad. Way too much, but the only way to get the attachment area bit enough is to use the 2x4 plus the little nailer block in there. So the plywood is attached over a 9 square inch area, the spacer at the vertical end is glued and screwed to the vertical 2x4 as well. Legs on the bottom ar eno problem to add if required. But you can;t do double deck and have legs and brackets hanging down. There are plenty of double deck layouts built so I don't think I'm even close to blazing new territory here.
My answer to the upper deck support would involve steel........
Like Pruitt, I think it is destined to fail.
rrinker Zip, zero, nada chance of putting a diagonal brace on there like that. This is a double deck layout, the sort of brace will make a mess of the space between layers. At merely 24", and that only for one part of the layout, witht he joints glues AND screwed, I don;t think it's going anywhere. Not without breaking the wood - it is indeed Titebond III and once set it's stronger than the wood. Maybe it won't handle a 100 pound working load, but then, it doesn't have to. I'm not climbing on this. I'd have to think the forces exerted by HO trains rounds down to effectively nil and can be considered a static load. If it falls down when I have the 24" brackets all up and lay a sheet of plywood across it, you can laugh at me. I'm more worried about the screws holding in the wall studs than I am about the braces pulling loose from the vertical. It may be possible to add support under the lower deck, but the upper deck, no. --Randy
Zip, zero, nada chance of putting a diagonal brace on there like that. This is a double deck layout, the sort of brace will make a mess of the space between layers. At merely 24", and that only for one part of the layout, witht he joints glues AND screwed, I don;t think it's going anywhere. Not without breaking the wood - it is indeed Titebond III and once set it's stronger than the wood. Maybe it won't handle a 100 pound working load, but then, it doesn't have to. I'm not climbing on this. I'd have to think the forces exerted by HO trains rounds down to effectively nil and can be considered a static load.
If it falls down when I have the 24" brackets all up and lay a sheet of plywood across it, you can laugh at me. I'm more worried about the screws holding in the wall studs than I am about the braces pulling loose from the vertical.
It may be possible to add support under the lower deck, but the upper deck, no.
It's not going to fall down when you add the plywood. If it fails, it will most likely be after several years of never-relenting ~85+ in-lbs of torque (I did some simple calculations) applied at the joint by the cantilevered weight of the deck. The glue will lock the top plies of the plywood together very securely, but the inner plies will tend to shear apart over time (plywood is not really desgned to react out shear forces across ply bondaries).
Maybe a simple analogy will help illustrate what I'm saying. You know how wobbly benchwork is when standing on legs that are not diagonally braced, right? Your design is essentially that same thing, just in a different direction. When you add even small diagonal braces to the legs, the structure becomes much more solid.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and certainly not wishing for some form of scale catastrophe down the line. I'm just pointing out the structural mechanics of your braces. Good luck - I hope I'm wrong.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
My new stud finder, which is way better than the old one (13 sensors!) coupled with the fact that the contractor is super fussy and made sure everything was precisely 16" on center means they absolutely will be. Worked for putting up the shelves last night.
Just make sure those supports are screwed into the wall studs, should be fine.
Mike.
My You Tube
rrinker Here's what my mocjup supports look like - there was NO measuring and NO square used to mark anything, it was all eyeballed and screwed together without clamps just to see if it woudl work. ANd if it's sturdy and stable when built this cloppily, imagine if the ends were actually even and measured properly as they will be on the real thing. The horizontal is 24", give or take (mostly give, it's more like 24" from the face of the main vertical 2x4). Leaning on it, does not deflect downward. Pushing it side to side, with my best eddort at holding the vertical 2x4 steady (laying it on the floor and standing on it) results in mo appreciable movement. I'd say this is more than robust enough to hold up even flat areas decked with plywood. Especially since there will be on on every stud, so every 16". The majority of the layout will be narrower than 24" - 18" in most places, and based on how stable it was before I put the second arm and spacer block on, at 18" or less it should only need a single arm. Even in the 24" areas, I doublt I will put double arms for the top cap, which only has to support some thin plywood and some LED strip lights. --Randy
Here's what my mocjup supports look like - there was NO measuring and NO square used to mark anything, it was all eyeballed and screwed together without clamps just to see if it woudl work. ANd if it's sturdy and stable when built this cloppily, imagine if the ends were actually even and measured properly as they will be on the real thing.
The horizontal is 24", give or take (mostly give, it's more like 24" from the face of the main vertical 2x4). Leaning on it, does not deflect downward. Pushing it side to side, with my best eddort at holding the vertical 2x4 steady (laying it on the floor and standing on it) results in mo appreciable movement. I'd say this is more than robust enough to hold up even flat areas decked with plywood. Especially since there will be on on every stud, so every 16". The majority of the layout will be narrower than 24" - 18" in most places, and based on how stable it was before I put the second arm and spacer block on, at 18" or less it should only need a single arm. Even in the 24" areas, I doublt I will put double arms for the top cap, which only has to support some thin plywood and some LED strip lights.
Hey Randy,
Structural / mechanical engineer here...
That load distributed across the horizontal section means the back corner of the brace is going to have to react out a lot of load, continuously, for however long the layout is up. What seems very sturdy now may not stay that way, as the fasteners loosen up over time as the wood in the screw holes is "worked" by the loads.
I suggest that a short brace from the horizontal arm to the vertical will mitigate the big moment arm that will otherwise be created. Even just six inces out and six inches down will improve the load carrying characteristics by many times the structure's current ability.
Those look like the Spax screws I use. If you put them close to the edge, they will cause a split when the head countersinks. They are still great screws. I've put 2" Spax through an edge board into the end grain of a rib and they grab the end grain well enough to countersink the head without spinning out.
It also looks like you're using Titebond III. I'd recognize that stain anywhere. Good stuff, but I do wish it was a little thicker.
Baby steps - 5 sheets of 3/4" top quality birch plywood just delivered to my house.
Cheaper for a 5x5 sheet of this than for a 2x4 piece of questionable quality from Lowes. ANd delivered.
I still have some things to do in the basement, like get shelves put up, before I can set up to start cutting these sheets into strips. Hopefully I will get to all that this weekend - also have another project, my server is about dead so all the parts for a new one are arriving tomorrow.
The Philips ones don't have the auger tips to cut in without splitting, nor do they have the head that self countersinks. I was surprised it didn't split the ply, I didn't even drill any holes with this test piece. They did rip the veneer but these pieces are cheap Lowe's birch plywood, the veneer layer is so thing people have complained about sanding it right off.
I notice you're using Torx head screws. You get double points for that. Those things are really nice.
I'd probably start building benchwork on the top left and move along to the right.......
to see if the laundry room still functioned acceptably, would want to know that first and not last after everything else was built.
Then work my way around to the furnace area movable section to provide one anchor point and to visualize how that would work.
Lay all of the track in what I just built.
You would have a nice mix of some long-ish mainline and some switching, so you could run/test different equipment and maybe even get to build some structures or mock ups. Keeps from having to do carpentry exclusively for a while.
- Douglas
Even if nothing was built, it still sounds like you are making some progress.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Didn't get anything built, but I did get a small load of 2x4s to get started with. I also took some old scraps and made a mock up of one of my brackets, just one level worth. This is with a completely straight piece of 3/4 plywood, not angled down to make it wider at the attachment point witht he vertical, and it seems plenty sturdy. Even before the glue has dried, at 2 foot out (the piece of plywood is 4 feet long - no part of the benchwork will stick out that far), there is pretty much zero vertical deflection and almost no horizonatal deflection either. I'm thinking for the top level, which is just to hold up the lights, nothing will be build on top of it, even a 2 1/2" width might be enough. The piece I used is 3" wide. Certainly for areas of the benchwork that are 18" or less deep. Maybe for the 24" sections I will cut out the more complex shape.
Plus I got the shelving bits for the laundry room, so I have to put those up.
rrinker I have pretty much all of that figured out. I should be able to put up benchwork faster than I can haul the wood home (I don't have a monster truck, so I can only take so much at a time, expecially longer stuff which needs to stick in through the back window). Supports for both levels and the top valance will be vertical 2x4s screwed to the studs, with 3/4 plywood brackets for horizontals. Lighting is LED strips, while I don;t have the control program worked out for dimming them and running the RGB strip through a sunrise and sunset, I am using common standard DMX drivers to run the LED strips. If i REALLY had to, i could get a cheap console and manually run the lights, but I did already test a basic computer hookup and it worked. The plan does show the room footprint. I did have the fascia edge outlines, but that was before I made some changes to the plan so that has to be redone. I'm also not redrawing it to accurately reflect that the track will not all run parallel to the wall/fascia like it's drawn - it's just faster to draw straight lines connecting the curves. Grades, other than the helix, are generally going to be cosmetic. With two decks it leaves little room for massive grade changes unless both decks move in more or less lock step, in which case some parts will be too low and some too high - it's already a compromise for a double decker, but I'd rather have the long run. And I calculated time in helix at reasonable speeds, like 30-40 mph, and it's not really that long. I did fool around with various boxes and supports to come up with a workable deck height without placing the upper deck at my absolute maximum (which means a lot of people I know wouldn't be able to see a darn thing without a step stool). --Randy
I have pretty much all of that figured out. I should be able to put up benchwork faster than I can haul the wood home (I don't have a monster truck, so I can only take so much at a time, expecially longer stuff which needs to stick in through the back window).
Supports for both levels and the top valance will be vertical 2x4s screwed to the studs, with 3/4 plywood brackets for horizontals.
Lighting is LED strips, while I don;t have the control program worked out for dimming them and running the RGB strip through a sunrise and sunset, I am using common standard DMX drivers to run the LED strips. If i REALLY had to, i could get a cheap console and manually run the lights, but I did already test a basic computer hookup and it worked.
The plan does show the room footprint. I did have the fascia edge outlines, but that was before I made some changes to the plan so that has to be redone. I'm also not redrawing it to accurately reflect that the track will not all run parallel to the wall/fascia like it's drawn - it's just faster to draw straight lines connecting the curves.
Grades, other than the helix, are generally going to be cosmetic. With two decks it leaves little room for massive grade changes unless both decks move in more or less lock step, in which case some parts will be too low and some too high - it's already a compromise for a double decker, but I'd rather have the long run. And I calculated time in helix at reasonable speeds, like 30-40 mph, and it's not really that long. I did fool around with various boxes and supports to come up with a workable deck height without placing the upper deck at my absolute maximum (which means a lot of people I know wouldn't be able to see a darn thing without a step stool).
Awesome!! I figured that you had thought about all this - just didn't see it in the thread.
There is nothing like cutting the first stick of lumber for the new layout. Savor the moment..
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
If you aren't a linear person a double deck is going to require some discipline on your part to keep the enthusiasm high as you build. Of course this is true of any layout that is of any size. Certain parts of the process go much more quickly with a linear approach but do get a bit tedious at times, presenting a challenge to those of us who would rather mix things up than in terms of building processes/ modeling.
in order to facilitate what I am presuming is your style of modeling - moving around from project to project as the mood strikes, I would suggest that you plan and build the bench work for the bottom deck around the entire "north room" all at once as the first step. This will give you a base for the rest of the layout construction and allow you to see the whole foot print in the space before laying track and making decisions about scenery. It shouldn't take you too long to put together the basic frame work. I was able to complete this step on my layout in a couple of days. With help, this can go quickly.
As for your plan: I presume you have a more complete version with deck widths and the foot print of the layout structure in the room? I also presume you have decided on a style of bench work construction: open grid, L girder etc? How the bench work is supported? The deck separation and heights? How the upper deck will be supported?
I also presume that you have done the math on the start points and steepness of the grades if they are not limited to the helix? I also presume you have thought about how you will light the layout and if you will have valences?
I didn't have all this stuff figured out at first but I did have an idea about most of the critical items before starting on the layout construction. I started with my lower staging deck first and the monster rose up from there.
I started running trains on the staging section as soon as the track was laid. Over the last 14 years it has been a balance between working on the layout, running trains and building models and rolling stock. I was able to stay linear for some of the more tedious tasks but now that the structure is pretty close to done, I am much more random about finishing things and what I choose to work on next.
Have fun,
2 layouts ago, I didn;t do any prep. I was plannign to make that layout much larger and use all the available space, but other things happened. Initially I DID want to have nice walls and a drop ceiling, but after seeing several layouts where they just painted the poured concrete basement walls, I figured I could just do that and not worry about all the rest. That's why I like seeing a couple of overall shots in layout feature articles, not just all the closeups that show only the modeling work.
Last layout, well, it was in a spare bedroom, so the walls and ceiling were already finished.
This one - I am here for the long haul, and while the basement was already 'finished' (see my basement phase 2 thread, there are soem 'before' pictures at the end), it was poorly done plus the walls were in 3 different paneling patterns, not conducive to being a layout backdrop. So I decided I was going to do it right this time, got the walls refinished, with insualtion now, new drop ceiling, outlets, and since my main breaker box is in the garage on the far wall and it's hard to get wires into the basement, I had a sub panel installed in the basement which still has some breaker slots empty so if I need to add somethign else, I can easily do it myself now.
I am not, as I have said, a linear builder, in that I don't do things in an order like complete all benchwork, then complete all subroadbed, and then complete all track, etc. You of course have to have SOME benchwork before you can lay any track. Backdrop pretty much MUST go before scenery. But apart from dependencies - I tend to do a bit of this, a bit of that as I go along.
So after reading this thread about finding that starting spot, do most modelers start with the benchwork? I always thought about doing wall prep (backdrops and power outlets) or ceiling prep (lighting and drop down supports instead of legs) but I never actually do things the way I dreamed it. I always seem to be short on time and money so I just find a way to get trains running and then become disinterested when I begin the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" conversation in my head. Always close enough but never the way I dream it up.........
Rich
I just realized I have never had a fully finished dedicated space ready to put a train layout in. I have never walked into a great space and been able to just build a model railroad in there.
The closest I came was my Dream House layout, but the room was never finished. I tried to finish the room as the layout expanded, but that did not work out. I started by installing "temporary" sections of the unfiished areas, but they never got moved to finish the room.
My final layout will start with a finished room also, hopefully within 9 months.
I don't know where I will start.
I've been following your recent work. I want to add my congratulations along with everyone else's and offer whatever encouragement I can.
As for where to start . . . I can't say. For me, I built and completed all the benchwork before laying the first strip of cork. I had thought about stopping halfway and putting a temporary return loop closure so that I could run trains, but when I got to that point I was still full of energy and enthusiasm so I just kept going. To me, all of it is fun. I don't look at any task as drudge work. Whatever I am doing, I never lose sight of the big picture and I can always see how things (even small little tiny things) will fit into the overall schema.
So my advice . . . pick a spot, any spot and go from there. Good luck and have fun. And keep us informed.
I like carpentry work too, but eventually I get tired of sawing lumber. Making strips from sheets of plywood I don;t think I will find too exciting, so I plan to get a truckload, then cut them all up so I have a supply on hand. I MIGHT be able to use the exuse that I have to stop because the shop vac filled up. I certainly can;t say it's because my batteries died - I now have 4 batteries and 2 chargers for my drill, plus an adapter so I can use the new Li-ion packs for the new drill in my old Ni-cad one. No more swapping between drill bit and screwdriver bit. I can drill, swap tools, and drive in the screw.
I may actually find it an enjoyable challenge to make the moveable part.