Moving right along, along to the back wall of the alcome. And got some of the blocks attached to the verticals. Set a piece of the underlayment in place. I was able to get it to bend even more than it is here, but with nothing to hold the end in place (not ready to actually attach it yet), this is the best I can do with something to wedge it in place on both ends. I think it will work fine.
Little by little, it grows.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I don't have a table saw, or room to use one for full sheets - not to mention carrying and supporting full sheets of plywood - 3/4 is heavy.
There seems to be little setup with this tool. I don't trust built-in markings, but really I need all 3" wide strips so once I have the slide with the saw blade the right distance from the piece that slides along the edge, it's just cut, cut, cut. It's just a lever clamp that attaches the adjustable part to the slider and arm, so there's very little setup for this tool. Kreg seems to have a bunch of other fancier tools to use with table saws.
rrinker I have the Kreg Rip-Cut, it's the one that slides along the edge of the material. I haven't tried it yet. Seems to have mostly positve reviews on Lowes. I can see where someone who tries to hurry and push the saw through too fast will get poor results, same thing happens when sawing freehand. My miter saw cuts just fine - but if I try to rush something and maybe not clamp down the piece but hold it by hand, the wuality fo cut goes way down. Like any other tool, use it properly, and you get good results. As soon as you shortcut - you're going to get sub-par results. I also have a high quality repalcement blade to use on my circular saw, designed to cut plywood, instead of the dubious quality general purpose blade the saw comes with, so I'm sure that will help make better cuts as well. Doesn't matter which way I cut my 3/4 ply, it comes in 5x5 sheets, not 4x8. Since both surface veneers run the grain the same way, i will cut to minimize chipping out just so the pieces are easier to handle. There's also a trick of using a piece of hardboard under the shoe to make a zero-clearance insert for a circular saw, but I'm not sure that will work with the attachment of the Kreg jig. And I may have a use for the leftover extruded foam pieces I have - instead of trying to steady these sheets on sawhorses, I can lay them on the ground on top of the foam to cut. --Randy
I have the Kreg Rip-Cut, it's the one that slides along the edge of the material.
I haven't tried it yet. Seems to have mostly positve reviews on Lowes. I can see where someone who tries to hurry and push the saw through too fast will get poor results, same thing happens when sawing freehand. My miter saw cuts just fine - but if I try to rush something and maybe not clamp down the piece but hold it by hand, the wuality fo cut goes way down. Like any other tool, use it properly, and you get good results. As soon as you shortcut - you're going to get sub-par results.
I also have a high quality repalcement blade to use on my circular saw, designed to cut plywood, instead of the dubious quality general purpose blade the saw comes with, so I'm sure that will help make better cuts as well.
Doesn't matter which way I cut my 3/4 ply, it comes in 5x5 sheets, not 4x8. Since both surface veneers run the grain the same way, i will cut to minimize chipping out just so the pieces are easier to handle.
There's also a trick of using a piece of hardboard under the shoe to make a zero-clearance insert for a circular saw, but I'm not sure that will work with the attachment of the Kreg jig.
And I may have a use for the leftover extruded foam pieces I have - instead of trying to steady these sheets on sawhorses, I can lay them on the ground on top of the foam to cut.
Randy,
The Kreg tools look interesting, I have never purchased or used them. They look like a lot of setup work.
I have a table saw able to handle 4x8 material, but more importantly I typically rip plywood with a circular saw, two clamps and an 8' level. If I need furnture precision, I rip it oversized and run it thru the table saw.
The real trick to circular saws is, as you mentioned the blade, and also the saw - you get what you pay for.......
We typically lay plywood on three or four 2x4's for riping.
Sheldon
Robert,
From what I see you layout looks very nice.
Here in the humid summers of the Mid Atlantic, Masonite does not always fair as well.........for much of anything. I used some masonite based paneling for the interior of a pool house changing room - what a mistake, buckled from humidity and temperature extreems.
Because, most lumber expansion and contraction is a function of moisture content, not temperature.
I have always had my layouts in reasonably well controlled environments, but not as tightly controlled as yours. You are fortunate.
The drilling, nailing, stapling and screwing properties of Masonite are one of the reasons I don't care for the product.
I have known lots of modelers over the last 50 years who have used it for layout fascias, and in this climate, the upholstery washer/screw method remains most reliable long term.
Layouts in this region are generally in basements, temperatures are easily kept steady, humidity not always.
Personally, I have never been a fan of the free form fascia, so I have never needed to use something flexible like Masonite. But I am considering some curved fascia sections on my new layout. Thin plywood like underlayment will work fine.
Earlier Randy and someone else mentioned the Kreg attachment. They have at least two designs, 1 a straight track on which the saw rides in what people call a sled, the other 2 a lateral extension to the sled that rides on the outside of the material that is being cut.
Both have mixed reviews in that there is too much play in the track-sled interface or the saw isn't held consistently.
What do you have and why do suppose it doesn't get consistently good reviews..
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Hey Randy (and Sheldon, respectfully)
I try to make clear that my meager contribution to this forum is simply showing/explaining what I have done. I'm fully aware that every situation is different.
Yes, masonite is not underlayment; nor is it drywall nor plywood nor tongue-and-groove pecky cypress. What I am saying is that masonite is a perfectly appropriate and suitable material. As long as its properties and limitations are recognized.
In my case . . . the glued scarf joints appear to be holding. The nails are holding. I will monitor them for the next 15 years or so and post photos every once in a while, and if the appearance/performance falls below my standards I will dutifully report it.
Most of the fascia is about 5 or 6 inches deep, but there are areas (up to about 12 unbroken linear feet in length, and around a curve) where the fascia is 27 inches deep. No open joints or stress or buckling there as well. Yet.
In fairness, I live in the high desert of Wyoming and the humidity is ridiculously low and constant. The range of temperature in the layout room does not exceed 5 degrees per year. That is 5 degrees total variance, or 2.5 degrees from the yearly average. But even so, my philosophy is that the coefficient of expansion for the artificial wood product (masonite hardboard) is similar to the coefficients for the lumber and plywood underlying substrate.
I apologize for the buggy ride. Please carry on.
Robert
EDIT
There are photos of the fascia on my layout build thread, but I'm adding this additional view from another angle:
The fascia in this area was installed about two years ago and it was painted about one year ago. This photo was taken about 15 minutes ago. The radius around the end of this peninsula is 30 inches.
Forgive the clutter; I am currently ballasting the area.
LINK to SNSR Blog
I too would prefer not to use Masonite for backdrop or fascia. What radius do you think this "underlayment" could achieve? Down here if you ask for underlayment they'll give you Luan plywood (which I'm sure would be unsatisfactory). Does the material you're talking about have any other names?
I do have access to some nice 1/8" baltic birch, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be bendy enough.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I don't have an air stapler but then any excuse for a new tool...
I can;t imagine a butt joint anything without filler is going to be 'invisible' so whatever I end up using for fascia will also be filled and sanded. In areas where it needs to be taller to hold control panels (and yes, there will be panels - operating turnouts via a DCC controller is a non-starter, doesn;t matter what brand, they are ALL awkward and in many cases the plain 'engineer' throttles can't operate turnouts or accessories), I will just use taller versions of my spacer blocks/ Though those areas will be few and far between, most will easily fit in the 4-6" of fascia that will securely attach with no extra supports. Still not sure what I will use there, more of this underlayment, or masonite. I'm leaning towards the masonite, only because in the corners I will want a tighter radius than the backdrop and what the underlayment seems to be capable of (but I haven't tried wetting the underlayment to see if it will take a tighter curve without snapping yet).
I have a stack of masonite pieces from my previous layout, only ever got two sections of fascia installed, I also have a box of the washers I used, it looked good, I used stainless screws to match the washers, too. Problem is, they are all 12" wide by 4' long - transport at the time meant no cutting it the long way into 8' sections.
ROBERT PETRICK ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment..... The holes will be small and easy to fill. . . . Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything..... Sheldon A specific design criteria was that the fascia on my layout be smooth and continuous with invisible joints and nail holes. Hardboard masonite was suitable and took the paint well. Tight glued scarf joints eliminated the need for mud and tape. However . . . the first 8-foot section was put up using pneumatic staples, and the little bumpy tetons were unacceptable. I put up the other twenty or so sections using 1" slightly counter-sunk pneumatic finish nails. It took a lot of nails because the masonite does not hold nails very well and the slightly counter-sunk heads would pull through, especially for the curved areas. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of. Robert
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment..... The holes will be small and easy to fill. . . . Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything..... Sheldon
I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment.....
The holes will be small and easy to fill.
. . .
Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything.....
A specific design criteria was that the fascia on my layout be smooth and continuous with invisible joints and nail holes. Hardboard masonite was suitable and took the paint well. Tight glued scarf joints eliminated the need for mud and tape.
However . . . the first 8-foot section was put up using pneumatic staples, and the little bumpy tetons were unacceptable. I put up the other twenty or so sections using 1" slightly counter-sunk pneumatic finish nails. It took a lot of nails because the masonite does not hold nails very well and the slightly counter-sunk heads would pull through, especially for the curved areas. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of.
Robert, respectfully, the whole point is that underlayment is NOT Masonite, and it takes the staples differently, not causing those bumps. We put flooring over it all the time without having to deal with any "bumps" from the staples.
And, again, as a 45 year experianced contruction professional, I would be concerned about the long term stablity of Masonite installed the way you descibed, for the reason you described, its poor nail holding.
But your mileage may vary depending on climate, conditions and possibly glue.......
If I were using Masonite for a fascia, which I would not likely do, I would attach it with screws and upholstery washers.
My last layout had a beadboard plywood fascia, nailed on and painted.
On the new layout I am leaning in the same direction as Randy, for both backdrop and fascia.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything.....
I have only found masonite (hardboard down here) to be useful in applications where it is not being attached to anything else. We have used it for CosPlay props, sliding doors, and for light duty shelves.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I think the underlayment is a great choice for a backdrop. Yes the joints will take drywall compound and fill in better than hardboard/Masonite.
Yes it will take a little more painting, but it is a trade off. Masonite is slippery to paint until you get the first coat on. Underlayment will soak up tthe first coat, use a good acrylic "wall and wood" primer first.
It should do fine around corners as long as you want nice sweeping ones.
rrinkerI also am trying something different for the backdrop. They had some 1/4" underlayment (actual thickness, something like .202") which has one side sanded smooth. It's wood, not MDF or particle board. Basically, thin 3 ply plywood.
Is that bendy enough for the inside corners of the backdrop?
rrinkerBeing wood, it should prime easier than hardboard/masonite.
I would think you would need more coats of primer than Masonite or MDF to hide the grain in the wood.
Moving right along. Made a trip to Lowes today, got more 2x4s, enough to finish the town side, the back wall, and the short wall before the helix. Also some 5 pound packs of screws, I only had 1 pound packs of each size because I wasn't sure if they would work well or not, but they did, nicely countersinking themselves and no splitting the wood (though I am pre-drilling the 2x4 vertical - it allows me to set the screws in place so I don't have to hold the board against the wall at the right place, hold a screw in place, and also try to drive it in). I also am trying something different for the backdrop. They had some 1/4" underlayment (actual thickness, something like .202") which has one side sanded smooth. It's wood, not MDF or particle board. Basically, thin 3 ply plywood. Supposedly easy to cut with a utility knife, but 4' wide pieces would rest on the wheel wells in my truck and sag (and probably snap). So I had them cut a sheet into 16" by 8' sections - given the unknown quality of the blade in their panel saw, I wasn't sure if it would cut cleanly or not - but it did. So I had 2 more sheets cut. Now I have 72 linear feet of backdrop material, for less than $40. Being wood, it should prime easier than hardboard/masonite. And it should take tape and mud to smooth joints better than hardboard. I'm planning on cutting small sections to back joints. Spackle or wood filler might even be enough - I plan to hang it using construction adhesive with a couple of screws here and there to hold it while the adhesive sets. Then cover the screws and sand smooth. Coat of good primer, like I used on the walls, and it should be good to go.
Here's a couple of views of the progress so far. I'm still working on the fastest way to prep each piece - a huge time sink is marking the positions of each little attachment block, that's so I can drill the pilot holes in the right place and not where the block will get screwed into the vertical. I'm installing all the verticals even across the top using a level, the exact spot of each block and the associated horizontal members will be determined by setting my laser level. Even that's not super critical, as the track will be held up with risers. I'm probbaly going to have the main climb a bit as it goes from left to right (towards the helix) throught he town - that will serve to both reduce the number of helix turns and, when it splits off for the branch, since that will be just a single deck, I want to have that closer to an ideal height rather than a compromise like the two main decks.
(climb towards the right of the second pic, then around the corner onto the short wall where the junction with the branch will be, and on to the helix.)
Put a few more uprights in place. Now that I have the swing of it, they are going up faster. Plus I assembly-lined it, measured all of them, then cut them all, then drilled all the pilot holes, then hung them.
I plan to see about Lowes tomorrow, I need more 2x4s and screws, and some MDF, tape, and mud so I can put up the backdrop panels.
I may be waiting a while for more wood - Lowes and Home Depot both cut back hours.
The Peco Code 70 is already well past due - I may end up having to just use Code 83 on lowered roadbed instead of lowered roadbed AND lighter rail.
First things first, more 2x4s, a few sheets of MDF cut to 16" widths, drywall tape and mud, primer, and blue paint.
rrinkerI started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts. --Randy
What with the ongoing pandemic, you may be in for quite a wait for those Peco turnouts (I hope not).
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
rrinker Milestone! First stick of benchwork went up today. Two, actually. Since they are approximately half an 8' 2x4 each. Something actually got done. Yay! I have enough to finish this wall, then I will have to go back and buy more 2x4s. And cut a gazillion space blocks. I started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts. --Randy
Milestone! First stick of benchwork went up today.
Two, actually. Since they are approximately half an 8' 2x4 each.
Something actually got done. Yay! I have enough to finish this wall, then I will have to go back and buy more 2x4s. And cut a gazillion space blocks.
I started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts.
Awesome!! The layout is official.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
mbinsewiWhen ever I build something, including the benchwork/storage structure that my lay out sits on top of, I build it like it's going to be supporting a concrete pour. Just a habit of mine.
I'm in the same boat Mike!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinkerMark - there are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design. Unless you are suggesting putting the metal brace between the vertical and the plywood, but that then makes all joints screw only, no glue between the vertical and joist. --Randy
Better would be to notch the 2X4 to the depth of the plywood, but that's more work.
rrinker Then again - I took when I have put together and, while I am too out of shape to do a pullup (and definitely not on something that's more waist high instead of over my head), I did have a significant portion of my 300 pound weight hanging off the far end with no problems. With one every 16", that load would be distributed in the real world, should I lean or try to pull myself up by the benchwork.
When ever I build something, including the benchwork/storage structure that my lay out sits on top of, I build it like it's going to be supporting a concrete pour. Just a habit of mine.
Mike.
My You Tube
I wanted to use strips of 3/4 plywood for the verticals, with some of those angle brackets or similar to mount the hotizontal arm, but after trying a couple different types, they all seemed too flimsy. That's with all attachments going into the faces of the plywood, nothing into the edge. Even one on each side plus one underneath into the edge easily deflected. So then it was either 2x3 or 2x4, and theere's only one grade (the cheap ones) of 2x3 typically available here, whereas I can get a better quality 2x4 than just the basic framing stud (though I still had to pick the pile to get good ones).
Some sort of welded steel could work, as long as it wasn;t too tall in the vertical direction. Lower leve, it could go underneath, totally invisible. For the upper level, it would have to be places above the deck level, to not interfere with the lower level backdrop and, since the upper level will represent a more mountainous area, the scenery at the back will rise up to the backdrop, so something sticking a couple of inches up would not be a problem. I'm guessing with a welded steel support, I would only need screws intot he frame to keep if rom sliding off, not perform actual support, so small screws driven from the horizontal piece of steel into the end grain of the plywood would not be a problem.
I could probably do similar without welding - using performated steel angle, and bolt it together.
Then again - I took when I have put together and, while I am too out of shape to do a pullup (and definitely not on something that's more waist high instead of over my head), I did have a significant portion of my 300 pound weight hanging off the far end with no problems. With one every 16", that load would be distributed in the real world, should I lean or try to pull myself up by the benchwork.
rrinkerWayne - there are no exposed studs. All my basement walls are finished with drywall, fully taped and muddled and painted. I'm attaching the layout through the drywall into the studs.
Sorry, Randy, my mistake. I thought that the brackets which you're planning to use seemed overly bulky, which wouldn't matter if they were attached to the sides of the studs, so I obviously was in error.And, at the risk of sounding even dumber, it still seems to me that if they're to be face-mounted on the wall, the weld-up steel ones would be less obtrusive, and fewer would be required. My upper level is plywood on open grid framework made mostly of 1"x2"s - used 1"x4"s on the front only because I wanted something substantial onto which electrical switches and manual control knobs for turnouts could be mounted. Even with much of the upper level over 30" in depth, the spaced-out brackets have not deflected from horizontal even a fraction of an inch, and, working on a stepstool to lay track or do other work, I lean on it often.
Wayne
rrinkerthere are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design.
Put a small piece of the plywood on your 2x3 under the joist to bring the downward leg of the metal brace flush with the joist. Use long enough screws to attach the brace so the reach through the plywood into the 2x3.
Wayne - there are no exposed studs. All my basement walls are finished with drywall, fully taped and muddled and painted. I'm attaching the layout through the drywall into the studs.
Mark - there are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design. Unless you are suggesting putting the metal brace between the vertical and the plywood, but that then makes all joints screw only, no glue between the vertical and joist.
Adding 6" or 8" steel corner braces to the structure will significantly improve its rigidity, plus they will provide significant sag resistance over time. They'll provide much greater resistance to the cantilevered load, because their fasteners will react out that load over the long legs.
If you're worried about the screws pulling out of the plywood, insert another 2X4 spacer between the plywood pieces and install the brace with nuts and bolts instead of wood screws. Just make sure the plywood holes are not a loose fit for the bolts.
These brackets cost $1.99 (6 inch) or $2.67 (8 inch) each. They're available on-line or in most stores from Home Depot.
rrinker The whole idea is to avoid anything that will keep the backdrop from attaching flat to the studs....
I'm well aware of that, Randy, but because you have exposed studs, the vertical portion of a welded backet can be attached to the side of the stud, not to the face of it. That's the same, I think, as you plan to do with the built-up wooden ones.
That way, there's nothing to hinder the installation of the backdrop.
My brackets are bolted to the face of the studs through the drywall, only because I had drywalled the entire room before building the layout.
I'm still trying to figure out where any sort of corner angle would go and actual do any good. Into the side of the plywood is good, that would be the flat type. But where does the other end screw into? At that point, the free end would be 3/4" away from the side of the vertical, requiring some sort of 3/4" spacer.
ANd the other type, either on top or underneath, one side would be screwed into the edge of the plywood, which is next to useless because plywood is not great at holding screws into the grain. And the other end - where would that go? This is outside the width of the 2x4, which ALSO places it outside the width od the wall stud. Screwing it into the drywall adds nothing. Lating it over sideways and screwing it into the inside face of the plywood, and then to the vertical - I'm not sure how much that adds either, as an attempt to do that with TWO angles alone on each side of thge horixontal piece of plywood gave extremely poor results. And to stay inside the vertical, the angle piece can only be anout 2" long. The side to the plywood could be as long as the piece of plywood, but then it's just a long lever and the short end won;t hold.
I understand about the moment arm. ANd that's somewhat taken care of by the extra block on the vertical 2x3. The plywood arms are not just attached on one edge all the way at the back, they are secondarily attached to the additional block to give an attachment point away from the main vertical section. Since they are (or rather, will be, the test piece is not accurately measured) contained within the height of the plywood arm they do not interfere with the backdrop attachment.