richhotrain I wasn't addressing those comments toward Rob or anyone else in particular. I merely posted those links from the Scenic Express web site so the forum members in general who may be following this thread can be informed that Scenic Express sells ballast from several different sources, including both real rock and not so real rock. Rich
I wasn't addressing those comments toward Rob or anyone else in particular. I merely posted those links from the Scenic Express web site so the forum members in general who may be following this thread can be informed that Scenic Express sells ballast from several different sources, including both real rock and not so real rock.
Rich
I never knew Scenic Express sold anything but real rock ballast. If the sold not so real rock, I wouldn't buy it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I use Arizona Rock & Mineral. Its real rock and the best ballast I have used so far. It doesn't bead up when water is sprayed/misted on it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
The only thing under the lightweight side is large stuff for O scale. That doesn;t mention a manufacturer. But if you go a page or two down, then they are simply reselling Woodland Scenics. Now, maybe it's ALL made by Woodland Scenics, but at least the larger size that they sell in up to a 5 gallon pail appears to be branded as their own - kind of like store branded stuff at the grocery store. In many cases, it's the same thing made by a known name manufacturer, but with the store's private label.
If you go over the the real rock ballast page, underneath the heading it mentions Scenic Express, Smith & Son, and Woodland Scenics. Well, most certainly they no longer are selling SMith & Son, but they have stuff under their own name, as well as WS.
Only other thing I really saw is that for their own branded stuff, it says it is sealed so that it doesn't darken when matte medium is applied. So just what do they apply to the ballast? Is it soluable in isopropyl?
I'm all for trying new things if they improve the process. Otherwise I never would have tried caulking track down. But having tried both water and alcohol, I see no reason to change back to water when the alcohol works great.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
riogrande5761 What Rob mentioned earlier was assuredly real rock ballast. I'm sure he can tell the difference between rock ballast and crushed walnut ballast.
What Rob mentioned earlier was assuredly real rock ballast. I'm sure he can tell the difference between rock ballast and crushed walnut ballast.
Alton Junction
I have never had an issue with WS ballast. If it's walnut shells, they are VERY hard. Must be dyed, too, since walnut shells are not grey, but the alcohol never caused any issues with it. And I have never had it float away - probably because I use alcohol as a wetting agent, which is going to be better than a few drops of soap in some water. Others have resorted to adding other wetting agents to water, but is that photo stuff even still available these days since film photography and particularly do it yourself developing has nearly gone the way of the dodo?
I live close enough to the quarry that the Reading got much of their ballast stone from, I could probably get the ACTUAL stone, not just similar stone, but I'm not sure the effort to crush and screen it are really worth the effort. Actual rock scale ballast suppliers - I'm not sure why they would have to add dyes to simple grey stone. Maybe some of the other colors are not readily available to the ballast maker and might be dyed.
Easy enough to test if you have some of the ballast on hand. Pour a little alcohol in a cup, and add a little of the ballast. Let it soak for several hours, overnight even, then dry it off. COmpare to ballast fresh out of the jug. If it had an alcohol reactive dye on it, the stuff that soaked in the alcohol is going to look a lot different.
I just went back and did a closer review of the Scenic Express web site.
On the Ballast & Stone page, the heading reads Natural Stone & Aggregate Scale Ballast. The sub-heading reads Scenic Express - Woodland Scenics - Smith & Son. On the Track Ballast page, one of the product offerings is labelled Lightweight. When you click on the Lightweight link, it reads in red letters Lightweight Ballast is made from natural Walnut Shell crushed and screen to exacting size. Persons with nut allergies may need to take caution while working with this style of ballast.
I assume that the Lightweight ballast is the Woodland Scenics product. My test samples that I ordered from Scenic Express were listed under the Natural Stone link, so I assume that it is real rock, source unknown. That said, I remain concerned by Ed's comment that the recent stuff has some kind of dye or coating on it.
Either way, it can't hurt using detergent as Rob suggested and omitting the alcohol. If you use alcohol, it may result in the bubbles, might not. You can try a test section and see what happens.
gmpullman A while back, Scenic Express was selling Smith & Son's real stone ballast. I reordered some a year or two past and an entirely different product was delivered. I talked to one or their principals at one of the local train shows and he said, yes, we did change the suppliers and the recent stuff does have some kind of dye or coating on it. Harley and Dale Smith lived only a few miles from me but both passed away not long ago and thus their ballast business ceased as well. Regards, Ed
A while back, Scenic Express was selling Smith & Son's real stone ballast. I reordered some a year or two past and an entirely different product was delivered.
I talked to one or their principals at one of the local train shows and he said, yes, we did change the suppliers and the recent stuff does have some kind of dye or coating on it.
Harley and Dale Smith lived only a few miles from me but both passed away not long ago and thus their ballast business ceased as well.
Regards, Ed
I have read other references to Smith & Son Ballast including some comments that Scenic Express used Smith & Son as a supplier at some point. I just found a reference that indicated that the father, Harley, passed away in 2017 and the son, Dale, died in 2018.
What bothers me most is Ed's comment that Scenic Express has recently changed suppliers and that the recent stuff does have some kind of dye or coating on it. So, am I and others relying on outdated information about the quality of Scenic Express ballast?
wp8thsub richhotrain ...I can find nothing on the Scenic Express web site or on the bottle of ballast warning against the use of isopropyl alcohol. It may have been on an older container. I got my initial stuff when it may have still been something of a trial product. The labeling on the newer containers I have still recommends water + detergent, but they no longer have any wording about alcohol. Every time I get more the label seems to be different.
richhotrain ...I can find nothing on the Scenic Express web site or on the bottle of ballast warning against the use of isopropyl alcohol.
It may have been on an older container. I got my initial stuff when it may have still been something of a trial product. The labeling on the newer containers I have still recommends water + detergent, but they no longer have any wording about alcohol. Every time I get more the label seems to be different.
Initially, I bought two one quart bottles of ballast that arrived earlier this week. There are no instructions on the bottle at all. On the Scenic Express web site, there is no mention of isopropyl alcohol. The only mention of any wetting agent is their proprietary product that they call Super Wet Hydrous Solution.
riogrande5761I agree with Wayne, great work and very nice job. Everything turned out nice and it's been an inspiration to me.
You're too kind, Jim. Just out here trying to help.
Rob Spangler
richhotrain...I can find nothing on the Scenic Express web site or on the bottle of ballast warning against the use of isopropyl alcohol.
wp8thsub doctorwayne Great lookin' trackwork (as usual) Rob, and an industry large enough to actually need rail service. Very nicely done! Thanks Wayne! The kind words are much appreciated.
doctorwayne Great lookin' trackwork (as usual) Rob, and an industry large enough to actually need rail service. Very nicely done!
Thanks Wayne! The kind words are much appreciated.
wp8thsub Scenic Express specifically recommends on its product labeling NOT to use alcohol as a wetting agent for their ballast.
Scenic Express specifically recommends on its product labeling NOT to use alcohol as a wetting agent for their ballast.
Regarding the use of 70% isopropyl alcohol, I can find nothing on the Scenic Express web site or on the bottle of ballast warning against the use of isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps they recently changed the product in some way to accept isopropyl as a wetting agent.
In any event, I do not wish to simply ignore your cautionary advice, so I have sent an email this morning to Scenic Express, specifically addressing this issue. I will let everyone know how they respond to my question about the use of isopropyl alcohol.
doctorwayneGreat lookin' trackwork (as usual) Rob, and an industry large enough to actually need rail service. Very nicely done!
Great lookin' trackwork (as usual) Rob, and an industry large enough to actually need rail service. Very nicely done!
Wayne
richhotrain...I have decided to go with Scenic Express #40 Ballast for my new HO scale layout.
I am feeling more and more comfortable with my inclination to stick with isopropryl alcohol as the wetting agent...
Now for me to be a wet blanket here, but I don't recommend that option.
For many years I used alcohol when ballasting, and never had an issue. I tried it on Scenic Express ballast and it didn't work well at all. Bubbles formed within the ballast, that burst to the surface as the material dried. I had to keep monitoring the ballasted area, which was quite large, to puncture the bubbles and re-shape the ballast so the whole project wouldn't be ruined.
Later I looked at the Scenic Express label, which actually advised to use water with some detergent instead. I switched to water and dish soap for the remainder of my ballasting, which worked perfectly.
As I understand it, Scenic Express adds color to the rock material, so I suspect something in that was reacting with the alcohol. If you want to use alcohol, try it in a small area first to make absolutley sure you're not going to have trouble.
Ideal Coal Unload by wp8thsub, on Flickr
Ideal Coal Unload
Scenic Express ballast, wetted with water + dish soap, should be 100% reliable. I've finished hundreds of feet of track with it. It's all glued with 50:50 diluted Elmer's white glue.
rrebellmatt medium $53 a gallon vs white glue at $22. Formula for white glue 2-to-1, matt 4-to-1, not much difference in cost.
I always use the 50 percent off coupons I get from Michaels craft stores to buy expensive products like the big jars of Mod Podge Matte Medium.
Hornblower
That certainly sounds much more reasonable.
Yea, well, I'll just stick to the way of doing ballast that I described in an earlier post in here.
No need to constantly reinvent an already simple process.
Mike.
My You Tube
Hello All,
As I have posted before...
Check out this thread: Instant Track-Tackit Ballast Adhesive Questions
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
doctorwayne I use ordinary tap water (apparently, Lake Ontario's water is only hard in the winter) with a couple drops of dish detergent and white glue- between 1/3-1/2 glue, with the appropriate amount of water.I have used matte medium in one area of the layout, simply because I had it on-hand. It worked well enough and had one big plus over white glue - that was the price, as an 8oz. bottle of it cost half as much as a gallon of white glue. I'm speaking here of Imperial gallons and ounces, so that's 160 Imperial ounces in an Imperial gallon. My 8oz bottle of matte medium was about $9.00, while the gallon of white glue was around $22.00. A gallon of matte medium - I don't know if it was even sold in that size - would have been somewhere around $180.00 - a big plus for sure! Anyway, if you prefer it and can afford, use it. I saw no difference from white glue, other than the cost. As mentioned, I use water with a couple drops of dish detergent added. To my nose, it smells a lot better than isopropyl alcohol, and because I usually ballast in long runs or add ground cover to a wide area, I'm not at all interested in fast drying. In fact, it would be a drawback for me. I also have quite a few areas where fill and ballast are rather deep due to the terrain over which the track passes - if it takes a week or more to harden, I have plenty of other stuff that requires my attention, and am in no rush. Removing ballast and/or ground cover is easy, as it's soluble in wet water, but I've never had any problems when adding new stuff next to areas installed previously, simply because even if the old stuff re-softens because I accidentally pre-wet it, it simply rehardens if I don't otherwise disturb it. I've never had an issue with ballast crusting on top and remaining loose underneath, simply because I always make sure to pre-wet the area thoroughly, until I see water running from the bottom of the ballast or supporting fill. To summarise: The water is cheap, the few drops of dish detergent is cheap, the gallon of white glue is cheap (when compared to matte medium), and because I'm cheap, too, it saves me enough money that I can go buy a big bottle of alcohol. Rule G is not in effect in my layout room. Wayne
I use ordinary tap water (apparently, Lake Ontario's water is only hard in the winter) with a couple drops of dish detergent and white glue- between 1/3-1/2 glue, with the appropriate amount of water.I have used matte medium in one area of the layout, simply because I had it on-hand. It worked well enough and had one big plus over white glue - that was the price, as an 8oz. bottle of it cost half as much as a gallon of white glue.
I'm speaking here of Imperial gallons and ounces, so that's 160 Imperial ounces in an Imperial gallon. My 8oz bottle of matte medium was about $9.00, while the gallon of white glue was around $22.00. A gallon of matte medium - I don't know if it was even sold in that size - would have been somewhere around $180.00 - a big plus for sure!
Anyway, if you prefer it and can afford, use it. I saw no difference from white glue, other than the cost.
As mentioned, I use water with a couple drops of dish detergent added. To my nose, it smells a lot better than isopropyl alcohol, and because I usually ballast in long runs or add ground cover to a wide area, I'm not at all interested in fast drying. In fact, it would be a drawback for me. I also have quite a few areas where fill and ballast are rather deep due to the terrain over which the track passes - if it takes a week or more to harden, I have plenty of other stuff that requires my attention, and am in no rush.
Removing ballast and/or ground cover is easy, as it's soluble in wet water, but I've never had any problems when adding new stuff next to areas installed previously, simply because even if the old stuff re-softens because I accidentally pre-wet it, it simply rehardens if I don't otherwise disturb it.
I've never had an issue with ballast crusting on top and remaining loose underneath, simply because I always make sure to pre-wet the area thoroughly, until I see water running from the bottom of the ballast or supporting fill.
To summarise: The water is cheap, the few drops of dish detergent is cheap, the gallon of white glue is cheap (when compared to matte medium), and because I'm cheap, too, it saves me enough money that I can go buy a big bottle of alcohol. Rule G is not in effect in my layout room.
I use 70% isopropyl alcohol for my wetting agent. In our area, we have rock hard water, so I add a little more Dawn dishwashing detergent than usual. I save gallon milk jugs so I can make up a gallon of wet water at a time. After applying the ballast, I spray the alcohol to thoroughly wet the ballast. I wait 5 minutes, then dribble the diluted white glue with those translucent condiment bottles found at burger joints. They're cheap at Walmart.
I mix my diluted white glue 60:40 water to glue. I find that if I don't use all of the diluted white glue in a short time (about a month), it tends to separate. When I mix the glue/water in the bottle, I drop a large fishing weight into the bottle. The weight works just like the rattle ball in a rattle can of spray paint.
The next time I make some wet water, I think I'm going to try a gallon of distilled water as it's only 88¢/gallon. Without the hardness of tap water, it may require less detergent than tap water.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I use alcohol as a wetting agent, 70 per cent or better sprayed onto the ballast .. where i differ is that i use DAP adhesive [thinned with a bit of dish soap] as a wetting medium, I do believe that a bit of give in that step reduces the amount of final noise ..
I appreciate all of the replies to my questions. I am feeling more and more comfortable with my inclination to stick with isopropryl alcohol as the wetting agent and matte medium as the adhesive.
Deane Johnson dk, do you use the Scenic Cement as it comes without thinning or modification? I suspect so, but thought it best to ask. Deane
dk, do you use the Scenic Cement as it comes without thinning or modification? I suspect so, but thought it best to ask.
Deane
I use it just as it comes. The solids in it tend to settle over time so if I don't do a great job of shaking the bottle in practical effect it is thinned, and still seems to work OK - but usually I shake it really well.
Dave Nelson
I don't think there is a scientifically established proportion for either the alcohol or the glue. I'm sure a higher percentage of alcohol evaporates faster, but that may not be important for how you ballast.
Eventually you decide you are going to bed, wake up go to work and head back downstairs in the evening to do more ballasting. If it's dry at 3 am or 3 pm, it makes no difference.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I've used Mod-Podge Matte for all of my ballasting and I'm very satisfied with the results. I dilute it to about 50% with distilled water.
https://tinyurl.com/snxdj2p
IMG_2915 by Edmund, on Flickr
I have several fine misting spray pumps. Some have an adjustable nozzle so I can get an even finer mist. It's all about letting the wetting agent fall onto the ballast or scenery material like a fine drizzle.
I use 99% isopropyl alcohol diluted to about 60-70%. The 99% is simply what I have on hand so I dilute it as needed. I also add just a drop or two of whatever detergent I have handy. This probably adds a little "working time" to the alcohol mix.
I enjoy ballasting. It really brings out the realism in the track work.
Good Luck, Ed