Some have mentioned when building benchwork, if the legs are attached against the inside of the outer edge, they are prone to being kicked.
For those who have attached the legs in-set from the outer edge, how deep did you need to go to mitigate kicking the legs with your feet? Two inches? Three? More?
On my last layout, I attached the legs to the inside edge of the benchwork framing, which was and is 1x4 frames. I don't recall kicking the legs on that layout much at all, but it seems better to check now while planning to errect some frames.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Mine are inset by a minimum of 6", more if possible. The 6" setback seems to prevent any interference with the legs, and the open grid benchwork above is more than strong enough the be cantilevered for that distance.
Rob Spangler
Grid is all lap joints.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The easiest way to build open grid benchwork is to simiply run your front to back "joists" as one piece, just like buiding a floor deck of a house.
They will connect front and rear to a "band board".
Legs can be at the band board in the rear and set back in the front, or even set back a little on both front and rear. Many basements do not have smooth/level floors where the floor meets the wall, so if you are using legs, and not attaching to the walls, setting them in some can make leveling eaiser.
Depending on the front to back depth, the setback could easily be as much as a foot for deeper layouts (3-4 feet or more, example: a penninsula).
Intermediate stringers parallel to the front and back band boards can be installed as needed, in any location, and need not have lap joints or other fancy cuts. In fact, purposely staggering them will make it easy to screw them in thru the joists, into the ends of the stringers.
Sheldon
The benchwork legs on my layout are in-set 6" to 12" from the aisle. Avoiding bumping them with your feet is one reason. Having space to install fascia skirting is another reason, as you may prefer to have the skirting in-set from the fascia by a few inches.
Jim
riogrande5761...For those who have attached the legs in-set from the outer edge, how deep did you need to go to mitigate kicking the legs with your feet? Two inches? Three? More?....
I built the support system for my 1"x4" open grid using mostly 2"x4"s, and in most areas, it's about 2' deep, although there are a few places where it's closer to 3', as all under-layout area is used for storage.
The set-back of the support structure at the room's entrance aisle is about 3"...
...while it's about 10" here...
...and 6" to 8" for most of the remainder...
However, around the peninsula, the set-back of the layout support is, in some places, around 30"...
The width and placement of the support structure was dictated by what some larger folks might refer to as a pinch-point, although I and an equally slim (and hopefully attractive) woman could slide through here face-to-face without appearing to be doing anything rude...
Here's a view from above, showing how the open grid overhangs the support structure (it's secured together with blocking and screws, so no chance of bumping it out of position or having it tip if leaned- or stood-upon)...
...and this is how the varying amounts of overhang were done on the rest of the layout, too.
Wayne
Damn, I didn't even think about doing this until it was too late after building the first section. I do have a little bit of overhand with the foam but its only about 3 inches.
And I am already hitting my feet is some spots.
I will make sure I inset the legs more when I start the steel mill layout room.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Thanks Rob et al. I went ahead and set legs in about 3 inches on two legs so far. I can move them in more and reattach.
I've recently built the benchwork for my layout. Its 53 inches high, and 23 inches deep away from the wall, and the legs are 22.25 inches away from the wall. I have no problem reaching to the backdrop with my palm and I don't come close to kicking the legs.
Its around the room, so the corners are protected. The U shape or L shape makes it very sturdy, especially being screwed to the wall.
The two corners that are exposed, don't have legs. They have big 45 degree brackets I made from scrap pieces that are anchored to the wall.
If I had a peninsula where the corners are exposed, I'd want to think about moving the legs in.
- Douglas
ATLANTIC CENTRALand need not have lap joints or other fancy cuts.
Agreed, but I like to play with my toys (saws) That bench is 6' x 18' long, I cut all the lumber up first and it all went together perfectly as planned.
On my layout, the legs are set back 6" on the two (3/4 freestanding) peninsulas and 18" on the benchwork that abuts the long wall.
18" on the right side of the photo (wall), 6" on the left (peninsula):
6" on both sides of the aisle (both sides are peninsulas):
The work was easy to do, and I had a lot of leftover framing 2x4s. I cut everything in the shop, transported the pieces and parts to the layout room, and assembled with 3" torx-head screws. Piece of cake. And like Batman, I like to play with my toys.
Just chiming in.
Robert
PS The tape strips on the floor in the bottom photo show the overhang of the benchwork. It has been there for about two years, and I still use it to know when to stand up when crawling out from under.
LINK to SNSR Blog
Mine are at 8". Robert, that's the first pictures I've seen of your layout progress that show bench work and progress. Maybe I've missed a few post due to my summer time absence. Looking great!
Same with Jim's layout, would love to see what's going on.
Mike.
My You Tube
Mine vary between a minimum of 3.5" and a max of 14". Because of a disability, where possible mine are positioned to allow knee clearance as I roll around on my stool.
If you will work and operate exclusively standing, 3" is probably enough. Think of the toe space you have at the bottom of your kitchen counters.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Mine are attached to the L-Girders, so there is no specific set-back. Since the L-Girders are inset from the edge of the layout, the legs are simply as deep behind the edge as the L-Girder is at that particular location.
By the way, not to be persnickety or anything, but an isle is an island, like the Isle of Mann in the UK. An aisle is a walkway, like the aisles in a grocery store.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Most of my layouts have been built with a single leg in the center of the span supporting the weight of the layout. The layout being fastened to the wall was just for support and did not bear the load.
.
This gave an inset of 12-14 inches, and very good support.
My next layout will be built with industrial steel legs and only have an inset ot 2 inches or so, but easy access to electrical outlets is more important.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A while ago someone mentioned French cleats - I know because I responded. More recently, I came across a YouTube video that the benchwork was built pretty much exactly like this:
http://smallmr.com/wordpress/modular-design-for-a-shelf-layout/
I am considering this now - the C section gives me my lower and upper deck. The upper valance won;t need to support much, just some LED light strips, so that can easily be screwed to the wall. No legs, not a one. The only place I think I might needs a few legs will be along the yard section, which will be a bit wide to be held by just the french cleat and some screws in the wall. Not all the force is borne by the french cleat, the lower strip will also have screws driven into the studs.
Only downside I see is the time needed to cut all those C pieces out of sheets of plywood. Especially if there is one every 16" OC. The depth can vary though, to make nice flowing benchwork.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
carl425If you will work and operate exclusively standing, 3" is probably enough. Think of the toe space you have at the bottom of your kitchen counters.
Mike
rrinkerOnly downside I see is the time needed to cut all those C pieces out of sheets of plywood.
Another downside for those of us with limited space is wasting 2" of real estate between the wall and backdrop which is now on the face of the "C". It may not sound like much at only 2", but if you have a donut in a 10 x 12 room it adds up to 7.3 square feet - for each deck!
On my last double-deck layout I used a basic grid attached to the wall and included diagonal braces on every 3rd joist (spaced on 16" centers). The lower level diagonals were under the grid as you would expect, but on the upper level they were above the grid - usually attached to the joist 1/3 to 1/2 of the way out from the wall. Having a mountain layout with scenery sloping up to the backdrop made them easy to hide. A few were in flat areas and hid by a structure or a clump of trees.
This was faster/easier to make, stronger, and wasted no space compared to the "C" brackets.
0 is lost on the top deck, you can go right to the wall. I had thought of going the other way - using the C for the upper deck and upper deck valance, and a more standard L girder for the lower level, because the loss of a couple inches at the back where no one can see anyway on the upper deck is no big deal. Most of the track for the upper deck would be closer to the front edge anyway. And it could probably go thinner, since the upper 2 levels are only a single level of railroad and then a 'hat' for the lights for the upper level, instead of two levels of layout with track, scenery, etc. The appeal of the C being the two layotu decks is no legs, maximizing storage underneath. But an L girder can span any of my wall lengths with at most 2 legs needed, so it's not that big a deal.
With the C frames, there's no need to cut and fit the backdrop around any sort of angles that might be used to brace the deck above. Even just using those metal 90 degreen brackets, which would be PLENTY for just the lighting valance, means the backdrop can't just sit against the wall and would need to be notched at every bracket. Brackets out the top like you mention are fine - if you are indeed building a mountain railroad and just fill in that space with mountain terrain anyway. But it still means you are losing that space for track or structures.
One thing I do NOT want is any sort of brackets supporting the second deck so that I have to fiddle with the backdrop of the first desk. So my ideal may be to go the opposite way and use a more standard method for the lower deck, and use the C frames for the upper deck and top lighting valance. Also seems liek that could make it easy to put the upper deck in palce after the lower is built. Downside would be poor lighting of the lower level until the second deck gets put in place since it will have the lighting for the lower, but I won't be ducking between decks and bashing my head. Because I would be setting in place sections made up away from the layout, it wouldn't create a mess on the lower deck to install the upper in this fashion. Unless I dropped a section.
rrinkerBrackets out the top like you mention are fine - if you are indeed building a mountain railroad and just fill in that space with mountain terrain anyway. But it still means you are losing that space for track or structures.
You don't necessarily lose space for track and structures. You can use a structure to hide the support or you can put structures and/or track at an elevation above the support. I also don't consider scenery to be wasted space. I only had one of these every 48" so it wasn't a big deal to hide them. The only loss is the ability to have a track at zero elevation close to the upper deck backdrop (unless you use a tunnel under the support).
rrinker...The appeal of the C being the two layotu decks is no legs, maximizing storage underneath....
I dunno, Randy, the cost of the support structure (legs) would likely be considerably less than the cost of the plywood for the "C"s, as you'd not likely get too many out of a sheet of plywood.
When I added the partial second level to my layout, I used welded 1.5"x1" angle iron brackets to support the upper deck. In the photo below, there's one at about the mid-point of the aisle to the right, a compound bracket (two horizontal members at 90º to each wall) at the corner in the foreground, and three along the wall to the left...
There are also three similar backets along the opposite wall (to the left in the photo below)....
The portion at the end of the aisle is about 9' wide and around 38" in depth, and is self-supporting, as it's screwed to the wall studs on all three sides. It easily supports my full weight, as I learned when it was time to paint the rails, as the curve located there is rather close to the wall.
This photo shows the one bracket referred to in the first photo, and also the one at the corner, in the distance...
Here's a closer view of the corner bracket, which extends down about 2' behind the bulge in the backdrop - all brackets are lag-bolted to the wall studs...
Here are the brackets along the second aisle...
When I was adding the upper level, I built the open grid framework in manageable sections, mostly round 8' long. The front and end members of each are 1"x4"s, while the back and intermediate crossmembers are 1"x2", the latter screwed to the wall studs. Once the welded brackets had been installed, it was easy to lift the sections of open grid into place...
...and, before the plywood deck was added, easy to install the lightweight fluorescent light fixtures for the lower level. If you're using LED strips, they'll be even easier to install...
I used 5/8" t&g plywood for the upper deck, as the tongue and groove feature allowed left-over pieces to be joined together tightly, eliminating chances of scenic material (ground cover, basllast, and diluted glue) oozing through gaps onto the mostly finished areas below.
I wasn't necessarily going for cheapest, however, I don't have an unlimited budget for good quality plywood. It is definitely an issue of planning the cuts - assuming all the same size, I can only get 9 frames out of a sheet (but that same sheet ALSO yields at least 2 of the long strips that hold the frames together). SO 12 feet of frames plus 8 feet of additional parts. That was just drawing the frames and slapping them in a 4x8 space with only a couple of minutes spent trying to optimize things. I might be able to do better, especially on one wall that will only have 12" wide benchwork - probably fit 12 frames on a sheet there.
Not that the rest is all scrap - I'm pretty much goign for all plywood construction here, so I will need risers and subroadbed. About the only thing not practical to make from plywood will be cleats for the risers. Oh, and I will have a helix, so I need spacers for the levels of the helix - gradually longer ones for the first level, all uniform size for the middle levels.
Nothing's firm, yet. There is much to think about. Biggest one being the upper level over the main yard. There is no reason to make it as wide as the yard, in fact there's every reason to keep the upper deck trackwork a simple as possible over the yard area to not cause human bottlenecks with too many people trying to work in the same space. But if the upper deck holds the lighting for the lower, then there will not be enough light on the yard below.
Angle braces under the bottom are a good alternative to vertical legs - and should work well since I will now have real walls anchored top and bottom, instead of the old barely attached to the block 2x3 walls that were there - most of the 2x3s more or less fell right off, that's how poorly built this was.
Jim, I have 4 legs on my layout with everything else cantilevered off the wall. I must have read Rob's comments before as those legs are 6" in. In 4 years no one has ever kicked them. Are you starting the layout in your great space?
TomO
tloc52 Jim, I have 4 legs on my layout with everything else cantilevered off the wall. I must have read Rob's comments before as those legs are 6" in. In 4 years no one has ever kicked them. Are you starting the layout in your great space? TomO
Finally getting started. Wife and I finished almost all of the baseboard during November. Got things going by putting up two 2x8 foot sections reused from the old layout and added on another section, 1.5x8 foot built today
Jim, looks very clean and again I love your space the wife and you created. Have fun.
Tom
riogrande5761Finally getting started.
Looking good! The room looks great. I like the floor, nice and easy to find dropped parts.
I used vinyl planks flooring, with a built-in rubber backing, Kinda pricey, but you can almost feel the cushion effect, much better than standing on bare concrete.
Nice to finally be done with the basement finishing. It was a lot of work and time but rewarding. As I look at the drywall, it looks better than much of the main and second floors.
I didn't want to go too dark on the vinyl planking and finding little parts hopefully won't be too difficult. It's fairy easy to clean drops of paint etc. off too. This planking doesn' thave teh cushion effect but it kept cost down. I can always find some carpet squares to put down in the aisle or use the interlocking rubber mats I have.
Next question. This time around I want to use shelf brackets to hold the upper level which will be 2 feet wide. Brackets with can support a moderate amount of weight and be screwed into the studs. I might use some long threaded metal rods to add support to the front edge of the upper level as well. Is there a way to spread out the pressure on the drywall of the shelf brackets to not marr it too much as well
I built my new layout with the legs cantilevered from the outboard side of the benchwork down to the baseboards. It is strong and lets me clean the floor without having to fight legs in the way. No problems with tripping over them.
oldline1
The wood look vinyl seems kind of cheap compared to some options, considering it is padded, easy to install, and waterproof, making cleanup a breeze. Now you have me toying with using it over my entire basement. I was going to do just the entry area, bathroom, and laundry area, and leave the layout area just epoxy on the bare cement with carpet tiles in the aisle areas for comfortable standing.
oldline1 I built my new layout with the legs cantilevered from the outboard side of the benchwork down to the baseboards. It is strong and lets me clean the floor without having to fight legs in the way. No problems with tripping over them. oldline1
I always love those posts with: this is how you could have done it - but you didn't.
Most of my layout will not be against a wall, so unless you have some anti-grav units I can install ...
My last layout had legs all around and not in-set, and I don't recall ever tripping on the or kicking them. But am in-setting them this time around as a precautionary measure.
Randy,
The faux wood vinyl planking was near the cheapest available for a floor. Mine wasn't padded however. Not sure how much the padded version would be / sq ft. Anything easy on the feet would be nice. I plan on using some of those interlocking mats which I already have plus maybe some 2x2 carpet tiles if I can find some cheap for the walkways.